do we need autobalancing?

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

So after a few frutsrating hours on wings of liberty today I just quit the game out of frustration, which hasnt happened in a long time.

The reason for my frustration is that the teams are constantly stacked in favor of the germans. okay on rare occasions they are balanced and on even rarer occasions they are stacked in favor of the russians.
 

When the teams are stacked like this it can really ruin the fun.
The germans are bored because there are no russians for them to shoot at and so they start vulching and the russians will certainly have less fun fighting an enemy with superior planes, numbers and positioning (on top of you when you take off).

The other reason team stacking is bad is that it prevents decent human beings people who want to fly germans and care for balance  from doing so.

Thats why i think some form of auto balancing option should be put into the game, it should still be up to server hosts to use it.
Maybe something that prevents people from joining the team that has 1.2 times as many players as the other team.

Does anyone agree? Would it be easy for the devs to implement? because i know they have a lot on their hands.

[TXSailor_1]

So after a few frutsrating hours on wings of liberty today I just quit the game out of frustration, which hasnt happened in a long time.

 

The reason for my frustration is that the teams are constantly stacked in favor of the germans. okay on rare occasions they are balanced and on even rarer occasions they are stacked in favor of the russians.

 

When the teams are stacked like this it can really ruin the fun.

The germans are bored because there are no russians for them to shoot at and so they start vulching and the russians will certainly have less fun fighting an enemy with superior planes, numbers and positioning (on top of you when you take off).

 

The other reason team stacking is bad is that it prevents decent human beings people who want to fly germans and care for balance  from doing so.

 

Thats why i think some form of auto balancing option should be put into the game, it should still be up to server hosts to use it.

Maybe something that prevents people from joining the team that has 1.2 times as many players as the other team.

 

Does anyone agree? Would it be easy for the devs to implement? because i know they have a lot on their hands.

 

I would agree 1000% that this should be an option for server hosts. I can understand there would be times where it would be undesirable, so allowing servers to turn it off is a must, but I'm actually really surprised to hear that it isn't already a feature. It's a must-have for any online game. 

[SYN_Vorlander]

Do we need autobalancing = NO.

 

If you are flying on the Russian side and out numbered dont go and pick a fight against 2-3 players. Selected a fight that you can win and fly home and land safely.

 

Spot them before thay spot you.

Edited July 22, 2017 by SYN_Vorlander

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

Thx for the excellent tips, unfortunately the only way to not get shot down in a situation where the teams are stacked 2 to 1 is to not fly, OR to not play the objectives at all.
 

Everything else is just a game of luck and lets face it most of the time you dont have luck, but 5 109s on your 6.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

I made a thread about this in the multiplayer section of the forum : https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29516-unbalanced-servers/

 

At this point I would be all in for autobalancing, I know it's an unpopular stance but it almost seems like a necessity at this point. When the Pacific theatre hits it will be even worse I imagine, better to rip the bandaid off now and just get it over with.

[Lusekofte]

Auto balance is totally OK for all flying Soviet side, not so much for the other side and that is the problem. There is many not capable to enjoy the game from a Soviet perspective. Strange enough it is among these people a common opinion that the Soviet planes is over modelled too. 

So the auto balance is ok among us that have no strong preference in what side to fly, not for all the other

[TXSailor_1]

Auto balance is totally OK for all flying Soviet side, not so much for the other side and that is the problem. There is many not capable to enjoy the game from a Soviet perspective. Strange enough it is among these people a common opinion that the Soviet planes is over modelled too. 

So the auto balance is ok among us that have no strong preference in what side to fly, not for all the other

By making it server optional, we give each server host the ability to decide if it fits their intended play style or not.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

I believe autobalancing IS supported by dserver. The decision is solely up to the WOL admins. So long as WOL is the ONLY populated casual go-to server this will not change. Someone could stand up a brand new server tomorrow with auto-balance turned on but no one would fly on it because WOL is THE server. Its kind of like Facebook. Don't like it, what are you going to do, everyone else still uses it.

 

On WOL the balance issue gets really out of whack during the times of day when the WOL admins and their core Russian player base are asleep, so it is really not viewed as a serious problem and they have so reason to implement auto-balance. It would be awesome if the server missions could dynamically lock/unlock available airfields/objectives based on absolute and relative player numbers.

Edited July 22, 2017 by NO_SQDeriku777

[SCG_ItsDrifter]

Hey man, just think of it as a "Target Rich Environment" 

[Livai]

We have the autobalance teams feature but some Server hosts disable this feature for some reason. If you are now frustrated because the Server host disabled the autobalance teams feature take your frustration to them. War was never balanced. Better planes against weak planes. Skilled pilots against greenhorns. I like to see your frustration during real war asking to your enemy we need to balance our force for better gameplay experience...........Good luck...............

Edited July 22, 2017 by Livai

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

We have the autobalance teams feature but some Server hosts disable this feature for some reason. If you are now frustrated because the Server host disabled the autobalance teams feature take your frustration to them. War was never balanced. Better planes against weak planes. Skilled pilots against greenhorns. I like to see your frustration during real war asking to your enemy we need to balance our force for better gameplay experience...........Good luck...............

I understand your criticism but you missed the mark entirely.

I did not ask to balance the planes and going by historical accuracy we would need to have twice as many russians than germans.

But all this doesnt matter because its a game and if a game was to 100% accurately depict war it would have 0 players, because war sucks.

So while this game needs to be as realisticaly as possible in respect to the planes, there is no excuse for having grossly imbalanced teams most of the time in a game that needs to atract customers ergo needs to be fun. 

 

In regards to your first sentence thanks for the info i will ask in the WoL server thread if that feature exists and if it does, why they are not using it.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Bombenleger

[216th_Peterla]

The problem of the autobalance is when squads go for flying. The autobalance feature will affect that for sure, impeding the guys to join the same team.

So if we solve the problem in one side, we create a problem on the other. Not easy solution.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Vorlander's comment is lame, as it is generally Luftwaffe which has the choice of where and when to engage, and getting to that point as a red is really hard with 109's vulching over your field.

 

That said: Want to end the WoL hegemon? Stop flying on WoL.

 

Fly red on a less populated server. Even if you are out numbered 2 to 1- 2 to 1 imbalance on a server with 18 players looks much different, and is far less frustrating than 2 to 1 imbalance with 84 players.

 

That or just pretend you're flying red during the opening stages of Barbarossa! :D

Edited July 22, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

The problem of the autobalance is when squads go for flying. The autobalance feature will affect that for sure, impeding the guys to join the same team.

So if we solve the problem in one side, we create a problem on the other. Not easy solution.

 

That is indeed a problem but I think in a  30 to 15 situation a squad of up to 15 players could join the red side, but most big squads I see on WoL will fly on the german side.

Because in many squads there is this one guy who is saying from his moral highground: "I dont fly red because they are so op" and so the squad will fly blue.

Also what is more important, to allow 4 players to fly together or to allow 40 players to have a fair fight?

 

 

EDIT: I just had an idea to fix this problem.

as hrafnkolbrandr said, imbalance in teams is not a big deal if the server is only 1/3 full.

So the system could be made so that it only goes active once a certain server population is reached (can be set by server admin) and will stop people from joining a team that has 1.x as many players. With x being defined by the server admin.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Bombenleger

[Rolling_Thunder]

We have the autobalance teams feature but some Server hosts disable this feature for some reason. If you are now frustrated because the Server host disabled the autobalance teams feature take your frustration to them. War was never balanced. Better planes against weak planes. Skilled pilots against greenhorns. I like to see your frustration during real war asking to your enemy we need to balance our force for better gameplay experience...........Good luck...............

 

This is the dumbest and most used excuse for this issue. Heads up it's a game! It's not real. Just as Germans being bored, because there's no enemy airborne, so they vulch isn't real. Yeah I can just see that happening during a "real war". Oh shoot we have no orders today, lets fly over to the enemy airbase because i'm bored. So many time the "historic" context is used for one part of the argument but totally ignoring the other parts just because it suits. I gave up MP because of this reason and others. It loads of fun joining a server just to be vulched 4 or 5 times before you have the chance to get airborne just to find 5 to 10 109's with far superior height and speed advantage. Maybe folk need to quit wondering why MP has such a low population and start implementing fixes that will address the problems. Like doing away with score boards that encourage shoulder shooting. vulching and everything else that's totally unhistorical. I can't wait to see an historic video of 10 109s all blasting away while chasing down 1 Yak.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

I understand your criticism but you missed the mark entirely.

I did not ask to balance the planes and going by historical accuracy we would need to have twice as many russians than germans.

But all this doesnt matter because its a game and if a game was to 100% accurately depict war it would have 0 players, because war sucks.

So while this game needs to be as realisticaly as possible in respect to the planes, there is no excuse for having grossly imbalanced teams most of the time in a game that needs to atract customers ergo needs to be fun.

In regards to your first sentence thanks for the info i will ask in the WoL server thread if that feature exists and if it does, why they are not using it.

You won't have been the first person to ask this question in the WOL server thread. Check the old messages. They flat out won't do it. They won't do it because it is not a real and persistent problem for them during the times of day that they usually fly. You are going to get more "suck it up buttercup" types of comments like Livai's. It seems like folks have more time on their hands to fly over there so they don't understand the frustration of busy people with little time to fly trying to get through a simple mission with a reasonable chance of survival. Add to this the shear suicide of flying VVS without being on comms and dealing with multiple LW squadrons that ARE on comms and you might as well just stop playing. Edited July 22, 2017 by NO_SQDeriku777

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Add to this the shear suicide of flying VVS without being on comms and dealing with multiple LW squadrons that ARE on comms and you might as well just stop playing.

 

Which unfortunately, is exactly what many of us have done. Myself included...

[NO_SQDeriku777]

Which unfortunately, is exactly what many of us have done. Myself included...

Which is why the Devs might want to take note of this problem since I suspect you and others may not be inclined to plunk down more of your hard earned cash on future expansions of this sim.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Which is why the Devs might want to take note of this problem since I suspect you and others may not be inclined to plunk down more of your hard earned cash on future expansions of this sim.

 

I can't speak for others but I'll back these guys to the end, multiplayer balance issues or not. I love what they're trying to do and I can't fault them for a community born issue. They gave us the tools, it's up to us to use them responsibly.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Team balance is vital for servers to maintain a healthy scenario and gaming community. Otherwise it gets rough and people leave the server. I have a half dozen years of experience admining IL-2 servers and it was never a good thing when the teams were uneven.

 

We enforced even teams by having a lot of admins. It didn't work when we weren't there but it certainly helped a lot.

 

I did learn that there were certain individuals who were intent on reliving the war personally and would refuse to fly for the other team. This wasn't exclusively Blue/Red/Allies/Axis but they did have the preference and refused to fly anything else. So its a challenge. If you implement a team balance then you force players into flying a certain set of aircraft. I have zero issues with that personally but it will cause certain individuals to leave while making the game better for others. It may end up evening out in the wash which gets you back to square one.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

I can't speak for others but I'll back these guys to the end, multiplayer balance issues or not. I love what they're trying to do and I can't fault them for a community born issue. They gave us the tools, it's up to us to use them responsibly.

Look, I didn't say the Devs created this problem but the problem is here and it is not going to solve itself. How will this ever get resolved if the WOL admins refuse to address this? You said you stopped playing the game because of this. I would presume that you would not want to spend more money on a game you don't play. IF what you said is true, then the Devs might want to take note since it might impact future sales. Please do not imply that My comments mean that I am not "backing the Devs"

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Look, I didn't say the Devs created this problem but the problem is here and it is not going to solve itself. How will this ever get resolved if the WOL admins refuse to address this? You said you stopped playing the game because of this. I would presume that you would not want to spend more money on a game you don't play. IF what you said is true, then the Devs might want to take note since it might impact future sales. Please do not imply that My comments mean that I am not "backing the Devs"

 

Not implying anything and I realize you didn't say the dev's created this problem. I think you're taking what I said out of context.

All I'm saying is that the lack of balance in multi will not effect MY future purchases, I'm not saying anything about your future purchases or those of others. I'm also not saying that you're not backing the dev's. I believe you're taking things personally that have nothing to do with you and are only opinions expressed by and about myself.

 

Lets try to not derail this topic any further with personal issues, as I believe it's an important one. You and I are on the same side here.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Y-29.Sulaco

[Lusekofte]

I like to see your frustration during real war asking to your enemy we need to balance our force for better gameplay experience...........Good luck...............

 

You wrote that in a topic about gameplay.....

 

How do you feel about coop missions, the implementing of AI to man russian planes, because some servers already  do, personally I see no problem here, I never fly long time in wol, only when waiting for a map turn on a other server. And the unbalance there has not reach a level I consider a big problem the few times I am on public servers. I think I have been there 1 time last 6 month and that was yesterday. Anyway there are a lot of topics about this, so it is better to join them rather than start a new one every week

Edited July 22, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Ropalcz]

If they add the autobalance feature, it will end up like RO 2 - who doesn´t want to play that side he is forced in, will simply disconnect.

 

Someone could be waiting whole day to fly in his favourite aircraft and he will be forced to play ones that he doesn´t like. This will only decrease the MP population.

 

PS: Joining queue would be nice. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Ropalcz

[Ribbon]

I really think ppl are missing a lot by flying only one side and only 1-2 planes.

Yak-1/1b, i-16, 109, 190, bf110, pe2, heinkel those are all great planes and provide unique experience and joy.

Maybe once BoK is out VVS side will have a bit better planeset for MP so we will have better balance, largely thanks to spitfire.

OP try to look at it as more enemy more targets.

[TXSailor_1]

If they add the autobalance feature, it will end up like RO 2 - who doesn´t want to play that side he is forced in, will simply disconnect.

 

Joining queue would be nice. 

Versus the guy who can't take off without being vulched and so disconnects?

 

OP try to look at it as more enemy more targets.

There very quickly comes a point of diminishing return... it sounds like it's been greatly exceeded.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

You wrote that in a topic about gameplay.....

 

How do you feel about coop missions, the implementing of AI to man russian planes, because some servers already do, personally I see no problem here, I never fly long time in wol, only when waiting for a map turn on a other server. And the unbalance there has not reach a level I consider a big problem the few times I am on public servers. I think I have been there 1 time last 6 month and that was yesterday. Anyway there are a lot of topics about this, so it is better to join them rather than start a new one every week

LuseKofte, you Iive in Norway, correct? Assuming you don't fly during odd hours you probably won't see the imbalances as much as we do in the U.S. timezones. Multi-player is awesome if you live in Europe. In the U.S. not so much, except maybe a bit on weekends. Friday Night Bomber nights would not work here because the numbers don't exist. Saturday Night Bomber nights which was meant for our timezone is on hold indefinitely because there are not enough players.

Not implying anything and I realize you didn't say the dev's created this problem. I think you're taking what I said out of context.

All I'm saying is that the lack of balance in multi will not effect MY future purchases, I'm not saying anything about your future purchases or those of others. I'm also not saying that you're not backing the dev's. I believe you're taking things personally that have nothing to do with you and are only opinions expressed by and about myself.

 

Lets try to not derail this topic any further with personal issues, as I believe it's an important one. You and I are on the same side here.

Sorry to be so tetchy. I read too much into your statement and I apologize unreservedly. Edited July 22, 2017 by NO_SQDeriku777

[Ropalcz]

Versus the guy who can't take off without being vulched and so disconnects?

 

Strafing enemy airbase is a legit tactic. No one would ask his enemy if he agrees with being shot at.

 

So-called *vulching* is very risky, because AAA of the airfield is always deadly. 

[TXSailor_1]

Strafing enemy airbase is a legit tactic. No one would ask his enemy if he agrees with being shot at.

 

So-called *vulching* is very risky, because AAA of the airfield is always deadly.

 

You don't seem to understand the effect he numbers plays. I'm not saying staffing the airfield isn't a tactic. I'm saying if there are 15 109s over a Russian base, there will be effectively no chance for the Russians to take off, and thus no point and no fun to be had.

[Ribbon]

LuseKofte, you Iive in Norway, correct? Assuming you don't fly during odd hours you probably won't see the imbalances as much as we do in the U.S. timezones. Multi-player is awesome if you live in Europe. In the U.S. not so much, except maybe a bit on weekends. Friday Night Bomber nights would not work here because the numbers don't exist. Saturday Night Bomber nights which was meant for our timezone is on hold indefinitely because there are not enough players.

Sorry to be so tetchy. I read too much into your statement and I apologize unreservedly.

Maybe BoK will increase U.S.A playerbase, Pacific theatre will for sure, so your time will come.

[TXSailor_1]

Maybe BoK will increase U.S.A playerbase, Pacific theatre will for sure, so your time will come.

So... rather than attempt to fix an issue, your stance is "well, maybe eventually it will fix itself"?! Wow...

[Lusekofte]

 

 

LuseKofte, you Iive in Norway, correct? Assuming you don't fly during odd hours you probably won't see the imbalances as much as we do in the U.S. timezones.

Well I am sorry to hear that, but unfortunately auto balance work best when there is a lot of people about, because you can afford to loose a fair share of people by forcing them to fly things they do not want, US and Aussie timezones cannot afford that.

I really hope those timezones pick up a lot more people, they are needed for a healthy multiplayer community 

[TXSailor_1]

Well I am sorry to hear that, but unfortunately auto balance work best when there is a lot of people about, because you can afford to loose a fair share of people by forcing them to fly things they do not want, US and Aussie timezones cannot afford that.

I really hope those timezones pick up a lot more people, they are needed for a healthy multiplayer community

 

Unfortunately, WITHOUT auto balance, you lack the dispersion necessary to provide good gameplay and attract more players from these time zones.

[Ribbon]

So... rather than attempt to fix an issue, your stance is "well, maybe eventually it will fix itself"?! Wow...

I don't like imbalance too, and was posting about it some time ago, than ppl here explained to me that is up to server admins, and once it was autobalanced with not so great results.

I'm ok with autobalance since i fly both sides, but others who fly only 109's would just dissconect with empty server as result. So my conclusion was i will rather play alone against 4 enemies than flying on empty server with no enemies.

Edited July 22, 2017 by redribbon

[Lusekofte]

Well I only say these things because I do not think auto balance is first or second options, I wish a server would try it out, it might work well. In this sim we are talking theory all of us , no one really knows how it will go

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I don't like imbalance too, and was posting about it some time ago, than ppl here explained to me that is up to server admins, and once it was autobalanced with not so great results.

I'm ok with autobalance since i fly both sides, but others who fly only 109's would just dissconect with empty server as result. So my conclusion was i will rather play alone against 4 enemies than flying on empty server with no enemies.

I'm not an auto balance guy, just playing devil's advocate;

 

Not all will disconnect, and you'll probably end up with a more balanced matchup.

 

Also those who disconnect might also go fly on another server.

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

Do we need autobalancing = NO.

 

If you are flying on the Russian side and out numbered dont go and pick a fight against 2-3 players. Selected a fight that you can win and fly home and land safely.

 

Spot them before thay spot you.

 

What a load of tosh.

 

Coming from a player who is often on the Russian side with anywhere from 2-1 or 5-1 your only options are to not fly the objectives either offensive or defensive. Of course that is if the spawn campers will let you do that because the airfield defenses are inadequate and allow enemy planes to sit over the airfield at altitude.

 

As to Spot them before they spot you, another cute one because the spotting distances are not great enough and the German planes are much faster than the Russian ones.

 

 

While I am not for auto balancing I feel that the 'rage' and 'indignation' by most German flyers is they fear and would not be able to cope with not having the best toys and their fragile ego's would be stripped bare.

[Flitgun]

I say 'no' to autobalancing.

 

Because a) It will cause issues with groups who want to fly together. b) It might prevent a person from joining the server. 

 

I think what we do need is a) To try and raise awareness of sportsmanship issues among purely German plane pilots who ignore the lopsided teams, and b) Russian plane pilots who find themselves outnumbered need to harden up and face up to the lopsided odds - not rage quit.

 

(I fly 90% Russian in WoL)

[Ribbon]

I say 'no' to autobalancing.

 

Because a) It will cause issues with groups who want to fly together. b) It might prevent a person from joining the server.

 

I think what we do need is a) To try and raise awareness of sportsmanship issues among purely German plane pilots who ignore the lopsided teams, and b) Russian plane pilots who find themselves outnumbered need to harden up and face up to the lopsided odds - not rage quit.

 

(I fly 90% Russian in WoL)

That is the biggest problem with autobalance; preventing teams to fly together and flying with team is priceless.

As i said above autobalance has good and bad sides, i'm fine with things how they are now.

Maybe better planeset matchup could help balance, making sspitfire,yak-1b and la-5 more available cos we all like to fly good planes. In my opinion it would be better fix than autobalance.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

This is the dumbest and most used excuse for this issue. Heads up it's a game! It's not real. Just as Germans being bored, because there's no enemy airborne, so they vulch isn't real. Yeah I can just see that happening during a "real war". Oh shoot we have no orders today, lets fly over to the enemy airbase because i'm bored. So many time the "historic" context is used for one part of the argument but totally ignoring the other parts just because it suits. I gave up MP because of this reason and others. It loads of fun joining a server just to be vulched 4 or 5 times before you have the chance to get airborne just to find 5 to 10 109's with far superior height and speed advantage. Maybe folk need to quit wondering why MP has such a low population and start implementing fixes that will address the problems. Like doing away with score boards that encourage shoulder shooting. vulching and everything else that's totally unhistorical. I can't wait to see an historic video of 10 109s all blasting away while chasing down 1 Yak.

 

 

This is a good post.

 

 

Which unfortunately, is exactly what many of us have done. Myself included...

 

 

 

I know it's rough, really.  But if you have a group of at least a few guys to fly with, you can adapt and overcome.  Our group is around 5 men, and it can be frustrating to have our faces pushed into the dirt, but we try to be smart and take pleasure in striking back against such odds.  We'll start joining the TS of the servers we fly on and are happy to work with anybody, but English is our only common language.

 

 

Strafing enemy airbase is a legit tactic. No one would ask his enemy if he agrees with being shot at.

 

So-called *vulching* is very risky, because AAA of the airfield is always deadly. 

 

I love attacking the enemy airbase more than anything, specifically because the player balance of Axis vs. Soviet Union is so awful.  There is nothing like launching a surprise assault on an airfield with our IL-2s and destroying 4-5 JG guys as they line up on the runway.  The last time we did it successfully I let out a cheer that made the rest of my squadron laugh.  But the server operators have become wise to this chance we have to use our brains and strike the enemy where they are vulnerable and we are strong.  They increased the anti-aircraft batteries to levels that make it 100% suicide, and in a server where you pay for your losses like TAW or RE+ this is not sustainable.  So we can't even use our intelligence to even the odds.

 

The problem he is speaking about is when large numbers of enemy fighters camp an airfield because they lack anything better to do or any enemies to fight.  THAT is LAME and bad sportsmanship and makes no sense, because if you want enemies to fight just go to the other side!