Game version 2.011 discussion: Spitfire Mk.VB, Blazing Steppe, New graphics features

[216th_Jordan]

Its the first time I hear something about a recovery timer tbh. How should it work? I never exceed emergency time limit, so I don't know

[Barnacles]

So i guess the P40s engine boost recovery timer is ok then? Or the P39 which will have the same engine and its limitations? And the 109 with its 60 seconds Boost and 10min or more (i dont really know, i never use 1.42 ATA) recovery timer. What about the Mig3 and IL2s?

Its not about overpowering its about fairnis with other engines. If the Merlin engine have a shorter boost recovery timer then the duration of its 5 min full boost timer, then there is soemething wrong. It feels like balancing what we dont want in this genre or am i wrong, do we want balancing?

 

I dont talk about the 5 min duration, i just talk about the recovery timer which is a lot shorter then on any other engine!

 

Can you quantify that, how long does it take, in minutes? I tested the P40 and it took around 10 min to recover emergency mode and 20 min to recover combat mode. As far as I recall the 109 F4 was 4 mins to recover emergency mode, but this was many updates ago so things could have changed. 

[Blutaar]

Can you quantify that, how long does it take, in minutes? I tested the P40 and it took around 10 min to recover emergency mode and 20 min to recover combat mode. As far as I recall the 109 F4 was 4 mins to recover emergency mode, but this was many updates ago so things could have changed. 

I tested it with the engine mod 45 engine from runway and +16 boost. Will test it again from airstart.

 

Times at +16 boost @3000rpm = 2:55min till time limit and 2:12min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

 

Times at +12 boost @3000rpm = 4:11min till time limit and 2:07min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

 

So it seems like the engine timings are not final, i hope it gets fixed or the other engines will get the same 2min recovery timer.

[216th_Jordan]

I tested it with the engine mod 45 engine from runway and +16 boost. Will test it again from airstart.

 

Times at +16 boost @3000rpm = 2:55min till time limit and 2:12min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

 

Times at +12 boost @3000rpm = 4:11min till time limit and 2:07min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

 

So it seems like the engine timings are not final, i hope it gets fixed or the other engines will get the same 2min recovery timer.

So how did you calculate that "recovery timer"?

 

Edit: Nevermind, just tested. You are right, it seems rather short.

Edited July 8, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Blutaar]

So how did you calculate that "recovery timer"?

I used my handys stopwatch and mesured the time till that message apeared which tells you that you reached the time limit for emergency boost. After that i stopped the boost as fast as i could and throttled back to combat mode (88% throttle and 88% rpm). Then i stopped the timer and started another till the message apeared which tells you that your emergency boost is recovered.

 

I tested it again and the times are pretty much the same, started from airstart at 300m for both tests, +16 boost and another airstart for +12 boost. This time a nailed it better with the stopwatch so it seems that 2:05min is the overall recovery timer for +16 and +12 boost. Just the duration varies between the two. Would be good if someone can do the same test just to be sure that im not stupid hehe.

 

Times at +16 boost @3000rpm = 2:55min till time limit and 2:05min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

 

Times at +12 boost @3000rpm = 4:01min till time limit and 2:05min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

[III/JG2Gustav05]

So Spitfire AI is coded to use 16lb or not? I guess it does not.

[BlitzPig_Bill_Kelso]

Regarding the new Tacview entry in the startup config file where exactly does this new line go?

 

tacviewrecord = 0/1

 

Thank you!

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

So i guess the P40s engine boost recovery timer is ok then? Or the P39 which will have the same engine and its limitations? And the 109 with its 60 seconds Boost and 10min or more (i dont really know, i never use 1.42 ATA) recovery timer. What about the Mig3 and IL2s?

Its not about overpowering its about fairnis with other engines. If the Merlin engine have a shorter boost recovery timer then the duration of its 5 min full boost timer, then there is soemething wrong. It feels like balancing what we dont want in this genre or am i wrong, do we want balancing?

 

I dont talk about the 5 min duration, i just talk about the recovery timer which is a lot shorter then on any other engine!

If you're fighting a war on equal terms...you're doing it wrong.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Times at +16 boost @3000rpm = 2:55min till time limit and 2:05min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

Times at +12 boost @3000rpm = 4:01min till time limit and 2:05min at combat rating to recover boost rating.

If the 109 cooldown timers were reduced to just 2 minutes, the 1 minute of 1.42ata would at least be a bit more usable.

[Blutaar]

If you're fighting a war on equal terms...you're doing it wrong.

Sry but i know your agenda is to leave your dreamplane like it is but i think differently. If you limit engines so do it equally. Why should only the spit has this 2min recovery timer? Forget about the much hated germans but what is with the P40, P39, Mig3, MC.202 and IL2s and other future planes? I dont like this aproach and yes, i like and fly germans so my agenda is also clear but i think there are many other people who would like to enjoy some other ,not meainstream, planes too.

 

Pls devs, rethink that 2min recovery timer or better give it to all limited engines equally.

 

 

If the 109 cooldown timers were reduced to just 2 minutes, the 1 minute of 1.42ata would at least be a bit more usable.

Yeah that would be awesome, i would like to use 1,42ata like the real pilots did but this is to much to ask i think, germans are bad.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

If the 109 cooldown timers were reduced to just 2 minutes, the 1 minute of 1.42ata would at least be a bit more usable.

I'm with you Trip, but I use what I've got. I try not get myself into situations where this becomes critical. If I do find myself there, I'm already dead...or very close to it. This is why I prefer to use my altitude rather than my engine. Does it work? For the most part yes. I find that the only times I'm bested is when I've carelessly lost my altitude,airspeed, situational awareness, or any combination of the three.

[LLv24_Zami]

That boost recovery time seems a little short, I have to admit. Has anyone measured those times for other planes? And is there a relieble real world information available about these recovery times?

[69th_Panp]

 

 

KARAYA1, on 07 Jul 2017 - 12:02, said: I flew the spitfire yesterday, amazing! But to day the Launcher says "Failed to download"? so I can't log on :/ yes hotfix is out, update your launcher.

 

How do you up date the launcher?

 

Mine quits working and windows wants to close the program

 

Had it working after the update and today it wont launch

anyone have a fix?

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

How do you up date the launcher?

 

Mine quits working and windows wants to close the program

 

Had it working after the update and today it wont launch

anyone have a fix?

might want to check and see if you have anti virus blocking it. or some other overlay 3rd party program app.

 

old version of GEforce experience also might cause it.

Edited July 8, 2017 by 71st_AH_Mastiff

[EAF19_Marsh]

Even smoother than before and the Spitfire is pure poetry. The comment by RAF and Luftwafe pilots (thinking Molders) is that is was 'childishly easy to fly'. The FM seems to be spot on.

[Nocke]

"Childishly easy" is spot on. I usually just s*** in fighters - but offline against them 109s its actually boring in the spit. No need even to use more than 7lbs boost and 2650 rpm. Just point the nose where you think it should go, and it will go there. No wobbling at all, every shot a hit. No need even to use the cannons, the 0.303 are actually enough.

 

Of course online I will get killed as usual, I guess. The AI is just not flying the 109s to its strength. But I feel pity for the onliners daring to enter a turnfight with a spitfire ...

[Barnacles]

Sry but i know your agenda is to leave your dreamplane like it is but i think differently. If you limit engines so do it equally. Why should only the spit has this 2min recovery timer? Forget about the much hated germans but what is with the P40, P39, Mig3, MC.202 and IL2s and other future planes? I dont like this aproach and yes, i like and fly germans so my agenda is also clear but i think there are many other people who would like to enjoy some other ,not meainstream, planes too.

 

Pls devs, rethink that 2min recovery timer or better give it to all limited engines equally.

 

 

Yeah that would be awesome, i would like to use 1,42ata like the real pilots did but this is to much to ask i think, germans are bad.

 

 

That boost recovery time seems a little short, I have to admit. Has anyone measured those times for other planes? And is there a relieble real world information available about these recovery times?

 

Measured the Spitfire and the 109G4 just now, times I got for the Spit are very similar to @Ishtaru (2:59 boosted mode exceeded 2:00 boosted mode recovered) G4 was 1 min emergencey mode exceeded and 10 min emergency mode recovered. It's worth mentioning that everything elese I've tested in the past has almost exectly been what the limit quoted in the 'specifications' screen has said, eg. 1min for MC202 emergency mode, 2min for P40 emergency mode, 5min for i16 etc.

 

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as this is not a FM discussion thread.

[=/WoVi/=kirumovka]

Convex, no? A concave mirror (like a shaving mirror) would only show you the Bf-109s in your left nostril.

 

But I think they were all flat, anyway.

Not if you concave it enough

 

But yeah, convex. Even 1 degree of convex would really help. Problem is non-flat mirrors are a big pain in the butt to code accurately but it can be simplified with a simple portal camera with modified FoV multiplier

[Frequent_Flyer]

I cannot open the Mission Editor after update receive this message-" code execution failure mfc 140u.dll was not found " any suggestions how I can fix ?

[Holtzauge]

Absolutely love the Spitfire! Outstanding work and glad to see so little wobbling!

 

I have high hopes for this being ironed out on the Me-109's as well in 2.012! 

[unreasonable]

That boost recovery time seems a little short, I have to admit. Has anyone measured those times for other planes? And is there a relieble real world information available about these recovery times?

 

I think the trouble is that "recovery times" for exceeding limits is not a real world phenomenon, (excluding the natural "cooling down" of getting overheated radiators back into limits).  In the real world, you were either detonating, exploding, shaving metal into your cylinders etc - or not.  The RL times are there to reduce wear and consequently increase the times required between engine inspections and the operational life of the engine.  So there are no - to my knowledge - real world "cool downs".  It is a game mechanic designed to reduce exploitation of the engine limits by players who do not have to answer to their crew chiefs when they land.

 

It should be as consistent and transparent as possible, though. If there is a good reason why it should be very different for different engines that is fine, but perhaps best for the thinking behind this to be made explicit by the devs before we get into to much controversy. 

[Finkeren]

I actually think the cooldown timer could be a working compromise on the already "gamey" engine limits, but I agree with Ishtaru's point, that there has to be some balance to it, when you do something like that for the sake of gameplay. The cooldown doesn't have to be the same for every aircraft, but it has to be at least in the ballpark.

[LLv24_Zami]

I think the trouble is that "recovery times" for exceeding limits is not a real world phenomenon, (excluding the natural "cooling down" of getting overheated radiators back into limits).  In the real world, you were either detonating, exploding, shaving metal into your cylinders etc - or not.  The RL times are there to reduce wear and consequently increase the times required between engine inspections and the operational life of the engine.  So there are no - to my knowledge - real world "cool downs".  It is a game mechanic designed to reduce exploitation of the engine limits by players who do not have to answer to their crew chiefs when they land.

 

That is what I was thinking about this. But reading this thread made me wonder if there has been some information or instructions about it in RL what haven`t caught my eye.

I actually think the cooldown timer could be a working compromise on the already "gamey" engine limits, but I agree with Ishtaru's point, that there has to be some balance to it, when you do something like that for the sake of gameplay. The cooldown doesn't have to be the same for every aircraft, but it has to be at least in the ballpark.

I agree.

[unreasonable]

I actually think the cooldown timer could be a working compromise on the already "gamey" engine limits, but I agree with Ishtaru's point, that there has to be some balance to it, when you do something like that for the sake of gameplay. The cooldown doesn't have to be the same for every aircraft, but it has to be at least in the ballpark.

 

Or make the cooldown = the time limit.

[216th_Jordan]

I cannot open the Mission Editor after update receive this message-" code execution failure mfc 140u.dll was not found " any suggestions how I can fix ?

On phone right now but I think sneaksie has posted in the beginning of this thread what to do. there ist a redist exe you would need to rub somewhere in the data folder.

[Barnacles]

I think here is where the 3mins comes from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/merlin-45-limitations.jpg

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Keep the emergency timers; just remove the exceeded time limit message (and recovered) from the technochat.

[unreasonable]

Just remove the technochat.

[Finkeren]

Or make the cooldown = the time limit.

 

Nah, that's too fast. 5xtime limit. 

[unreasonable]

Nah, that's too fast. 5xtime limit. 

 

Fair enough - I just mean that a long limit should be associated with a long CD, and so on, which any universally applied multiplier would do. If one plane has a long limit and a short CD it will cause anger and resentment, and we do not want that.

Edited July 8, 2017 by unreasonable

[Finkeren]

I think it's a good idea Unreasonable. 

[JtD]

German engine type testing was a cycle of 5 minutes emergency, 25 minutes combat, 30 minutes maximum continuous for several hours in a row. In real life 1-1 ratio existed at least on paper.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

Just remove the technochat.

How is this not a server side difficulty option yet?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

On second thought yeah, just remove technochat.

 

Seems like it should be a normal mode assist. It was really surprising to me when I saw it still on in expert.

Edited July 8, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[HagarTheHorrible]

Maybe the Merlin in the Spitfire is just being pushed more conservatively relative to it's maximal capacity than that of other aircraft ?

 

How do you judge all these time limits and cool downs and what stage you're at in the cycle if you don't use Techno chat ?

Edited July 8, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[unreasonable]

 

 

How do you judge all these time limits and cool downs and what stage you're at in the cycle if you don't use Techno chat ?

 

That is really the point, is it not, you should not be doing it at all.  Pay attention to the time limit, break it if you have to in order to live, then fly home.  "Cooldowns" are just an MP e-sports thing, for people who want to dogfight  all day.

 

I was just being mischievous really - I never use the thing and in SP campaigns I cannot really remember many occasions when I would have needed to use combat mode more than once.  

[dburne]

I will tell you guys,

 

I know all the talk is pretty much on the Spitfire, rightfully so- it is a wonderful plane and will end up being my favorite.

 

But if you fancy flying the Yak-1 at all, and you have not yet, definitely pick up the Blazing Steppe campaign now. I have flown 6 missions in it so far, and it is incredible. I am really enjoying it! I just finished the 6th mission and it was fantastic, huge furball  against several 109's at low level. A lot of action all the way around.

Returning to my airfield and getting that landing flare to give the go ahead to land after this one, had such a sense of accomplishment.

 

It's another way to support these guys, and to help insure we get more of these great scripted campaigns in the future. BlackSix did a great job on this one!

[Blutaar]

In my opinion, the engine limits are just for balancing. Of course i could be wrong but i really dont think that engines brake that easily while using the engine to its maximum, even older ones. And i dont think that pilots needed a stopwatch to use there engines properly. Most missions in a fighterplane were just uneventful so it makes sense to limit the usage but if there are enemy fighters up, nobody would keep these limits for sure and while having these limits, its just unrealistic and not sim like. In real life, Just after landing the pilot would tell the groundcrews that they had to use the engine to its limits, the groundcrew then will decide what to do next. To think these time limits are even remotely realistic is just ridiculous i am sry to say that. It feels like a part of an mmorpg like i played not so long ago where you have time limited buffs which have a cooldown and make your character stronger, it feels really out of place in a so called "Sim". This i would expect from a game like WT but even them has a better solution to this. 

[DD_Arthur]

Of course i could be wrong 

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I think it's done as a concession, because yes surely engines could sustain much more than what it's allowed in game. However If they implemented the actual resilience you could probably fly for the most part of a sortie at 1.42 ata, +16 , 56" or 1065 mmHg in I-16, and people would use it to cruise around (normal in a videogame environment, you just use what's best).  IRL the engine would survive, but then it would have it's life time severly decreased, and that's why these limits exists in the manuals. In game you always have a brand new plane. The only way I think actual engine resistance could be modelled is in a server which tracks the engine wear for each pilot, and they have a "garage" of engines for the season like planes are limited for example.

 

About 1.42 ata, yes in the 109s it's limited to 1 minute, but there are intermeidate boost levels between the 30 min 1.3 and the 1 min  1.42, you can use those in between values and they'll have intermediate time limits and still be able to have a power boost in comparison to 1.3

 

These graphs were made by DerSheriff after testing with different engine settings:

 

 

 

If it was by me... I would tolerate the 1 min timers up to 5 mins let's say... so they are more useful but won't allow people to just cruise around in that setting (not what real pilots would do). But there is the problem with planes that have 5- 10 min emergency timers (like the MiG, I-16 and Spit @3000 RPM +12, La-5 non F), they would have to be compensated in some way as well, but then you can't just increase their limits to 30/40 mins because that would allow them to cruise around... but in some way they would need to get some benefit as their engines IRL were cleared for more abuse than the 1-3 min ones...

Edited July 8, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard