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#1 Haza

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:49

Gents,
It always makes me wonder how this team has modelled the damage effects in the sim and can anybody explain to me how they do it or link me to another post. I only ask because it still amazes me to watch a damaged aircraft climbing away and then watch how it falls apart just when you think it is getting away.

One of the best things I enjoy with this sim is that type of modelling rather than everything falling off and breaking apart immediately.
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#2 Finkeren

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 06:52

With regard to aircraft falling apart long after receiving damage: That's one of the great things about the DM. Structural damage lowers the load limits for a given part of the aircraft, so a plane might fly just fine with a damaged wing, but as soon as you put significant G-loads on it, it snaps off. Damage may also be cumulative, so that further damage can occur to an already damaged part through maneuvers until it reaches a point where it breaks.

The DM is really very good. The only major issues is with the visual representation, some think the smoke/vapor effects are overdone, and most agree that bullet holes look horrible.

Edited by Finkeren, 19 June 2017 - 06:52.

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#3 Legioneod

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:37

Does it use an rng type system/area type system to determine what gets damaged? For instance if a projectile hits the engine does it randomly select something to be damaged? Like coolant, oil, etc?

 

Just curious because I saw the new damage model that DCS is working on and it looks like it will be really good (I'm speaking of the internal/system dmg model and not the visual dmg)

 

The dmg model in this game is good but I think it could be improved. Also, I think the dmg model in Clod is a little better.


Edited by Legioneod, 19 June 2017 - 11:39.

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#4 Finkeren

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:16

Simply putting more little details into your DM willnot make it behave more realistic. Often quite the contrary.

ClOD has loads of little internal details but the overall DM is a bit of a mess and when it comes to modeling structural damage it flat out sucks - no better than IL-2-1946.

DCS' upcoming DM upgrade looks promising, but I don't trust an ED announcement farther than I can throw it.
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#5 Finkeren

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:23

That's not to say, that BoX is perfect or all-encompassing in the DM-department. Far from it.

There are areas, where it could use some more depth (certain types of engine damage, fuel leaks etc) and some elements are (for now) completely missing (damage to electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic systems, damage to tires, moving parts becoming stuck etc.) some will be added along the way and others we might never have.

But what is there works very well IMHO, and BoX has by far the best and most realistic DM of any flight sim out there.
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#6 216th_Jordan

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:29

Yeah the visual representation of DM in Il-2 is a bit lacking at points (due to internal parts that were optimzed away and the 2k damage textures) but when it comes to dynamic and systems damage I think the found a good balance. Some spots however seem to be so small that they almost never get destroyed. In all 3 years of playing this sim I recount only once losing a flap in the Yak-1.
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#7 307_Tomcat

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 13:44

I would like to see improvements to visual and other less or none modeled types of damage like hydraulic, mechanical, leaks etc . BTW I don't​ like how often and repetitively I see one of the wing is tear off. Wing damage I image is hard to model especially real looking structural damage.Wing damage is to simple as in ROF where shoting wing tip eventually leads to tear off the whole wing - even on ground (but stress damage is nice to have). I would like to see propeller damage from bullets, better canopy damage, better midair collisions and would like to see engine which can be separated from rest of plane body after some explosion or crashes. Currently I like what we have but as you ask there is plenty things to do which I hope eventually be made.
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#8 motoadve

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 13:45

Like the damage model, hope we get more systems modeled to get damage (gear tires, electrical,do guns get damaged?)

My only complaint really is the over done amounts of smoke, ruins immersion and make sit look arcadish.


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#9 =TBAS=Tripwire

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 13:48

do guns get damaged

Yes. The motor cannon is knocked out on rare occasions in the 109.


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#10 Voidhunger

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 15:03

Yes. The motor cannon is knocked out on rare occasions in the 109.

same for the La5 in my experience

 

 

Im still waiting of electrical/pneumatic dmg to the undercarriage.

It was confirmed, but postponed probably


Edited by Voidhunger, 19 June 2017 - 15:05.

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#11 Space_Ghost

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 15:19

same for the La5 in my experience

 

 

Im still waiting of electrical/pneumatic dmg to the undercarriage.

It was confirmed, but postponed probably

 

It was confirmed as not being there and was assigned to the "maybe some day" list.


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#12 Voidhunger

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 15:29

It was confirmed as not being there and was assigned to the "maybe some day" list.

 

I think that it was more than  "maybe some day". Something like " its on the list", but maybe Im wrong


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#13 Space_Ghost

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 17:22

I think that it was more than  "maybe some day". Something like " its on the list", but maybe Im wrong

 

It's an issue I've followed pretty closely (detailed DMs are probably my favorite part of sims) and although I can't contest that with full certainty I believe it was a "some day" vs. "will be."

 

:salute:


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#14 Disarray

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 17:50

Like the damage model, hope we get more systems modeled to get damage (gear tires, electrical,do guns get damaged?)

My only complaint really is the over done amounts of smoke, ruins immersion and make sit look arcadish.

 

Guns aver very capable of being damaged, though with most of the guns being housed within or around the engine of most planes it is more likely that your plane will be knocked out before you notice your guns stop working. I can recall a hand full of occasions that my MGs or cannon in a yak had been shot out in the midst of a fight and I was able to get the plane home before the engine quit. I notice guns getting taken out in planes with wing mounted guns, the IL-2's and the P-40 mostly as I end up flying Soviet most of the time but even the JU-87 suffers from this damage in a fare number of flights when I take it out.

 

I am curious about your comment on the smoke though. What about it is anachronistic or arcadish?


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#15 motoadve

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 20:31

Smoke is always the maximum possible, fuel leak even a small,huge leak smoke shows,engine smoke huge engine smoke, radiator shot huge white smoke , the maximum always, no variety.

What if only one bullet hit and its a small leak? show less smoke instead of the maximum possible, somtimes looks like an airshow airplane with 3 color smoke all the same size.


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#16 FuriousMeow

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 20:35

 moving parts becoming stuck

 

That can happen with control surfaces. Only other moving parts would be flaps or gear, and I believe flaps can get damaged and not go up or down - or be stuck at their current deployment.


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#17 Finkeren

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 21:28

That can happen with control surfaces. Only other moving parts would be flaps or gear, and I believe flaps can get damaged and not go up or down - or be stuck at their current deployment.


Can control surfaces become stuck? I was under the impression, that only the control rods could be broken, essentially leaving the control surface in the neutral position.

Other moving parts that could become stuck include gear and flaps, yes, but also bomb bay doors, sliding canopies, flexible guns, radiator shutters and dive brakes, all of which could have very severe impact on the mission.

It's nice to dream about these things, obviously noone is demanding that the devs go out of their way to add them now. The DM is already one of the sim's strongest points, so any addition is just icing on the cake.
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#18 216th_Jordan

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 21:29

Can control surfaces become stuck? I was under the impression, that only the control rods could be broken, essentially leaving the control surface in the neutral position.

 

 

 

Control surfaces definitely get stuck :) Seen it many times.


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#19 Finkeren

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 21:31

Control surfaces definitely get stuck :) Seen it many times.


Ok, great to know :salute:

When I lose control on one axis, that is usually my cue to bail out. Never stick around for long enough to observe the effect.
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#20 Disarray

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 21:49

I have had my air-brakes lock up on me in a JU-88; I dove from way up high and got going really fast and the breaks wouldn't go back up. I've also had flaps shot off my plane, it was in a 109, but it made it back home safely - well sort of safely.


Edited by Disarray, 19 June 2017 - 21:49.

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#21 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 21:50

Compared to IL-2: 1946... DM is one of the areas that came the furthest along in my mind. The parts breaking later, the wing warping, and generally the consistency of the damage modeling across aircraft. Its not perfect but they have done a REALLY good job of getting this stuff right. Yeah, we've had some debates and a few bugs but its really good by comparison to everything else.

 

I know they have stuff on the wish list. It'll be fun to see that stuff appear later on. But they have the leading damage model right now. I think even when ED introduces their new damage model... it may be bringing up to par rather than significantly surpassing what IL-2: BoX has.


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#22 II./JG1_Schulte

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 23:00

A partial list of CloDs Damages:

      

Spoiler

 


Edited by SYN_Haashashin, 21 June 2017 - 18:41.
Better now ;)

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#23 BorysVorobyov

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 23:14

A partial list of CloDs Damages:

Spoiler


Where is the rest of the list?


Edited by SYN_Haashashin, 21 June 2017 - 18:42.
quote edit

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#24 FuriousMeow

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 23:59

An extrapolation of the potential damages in Clod that may, or may not, really work together.

 

I mean, I saw a Spitfire land in that game missing it's entire rear fuselage and half a wing. Not just land, 3-point.

 

I'm not going to take away from what TFS has done, but just because it exists in the data files doesn't mean it actually works.


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#25 II./JG1_Schulte

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 00:48

Agreed

Only reference....for the above posts

Wish I could post comparative BoX codes

 

Fine games both.

 

Have fun

Mox


Edited by II./JG1_Schulte, 20 June 2017 - 00:55.

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#26 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 02:58

Like the damage model, hope we get more systems modeled to get damage (gear tires, electrical,do guns get damaged?)
My only complaint really is the over done amounts of smoke, ruins immersion and make sit look arcadish.

While I agree about the smoke and most of the guys who are into the historical aspect of the sim probably do too, this is a concession to the vast majority of gamers who get their context from the movies. We history buffs are actually in the minority of purchasers I suspect. I'm actually OK with the smoke effects overall for this reason. Get the whipersnappers in and hooked, then keep/educate a few to make them stay.

Also, I'd be ok with some tiny arcade type hit boxes to drop a gear when hit without a full hydraulic build and some other damage items as well (wing or cowl panels etc). If the boxes are small and infrequently hit it would be way cool.

Those bullet decals however.....yeesh!

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf, 20 June 2017 - 02:58.

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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#27 JaffaCake

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 12:06

One of the badly modelled effects in BOX is the explosion effect of the HE rounds. Developers instead use shrapnel as a way to compensate, which leads to completely different effects of the damage - and makes AP rounds more effective nearly in all situations.

 

Otherwise DM is good in comparison to other air sims, mostly because other sims have outrageously bad DMs.


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#28 Legioneod

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 13:29

My dream for a dm is for it to have all the internals modeled.

 

I wanna see the ability to dmg:

 

-fuel lines

-pistons

-coolant lines

-radiators

-prop

-prop governor

-oxygen tanks (could result in fire/explosion)

-landing gear

-hydraulic systems

-instrument panel

-electrical systems

-oil leaks 

-coolant leaks

-fuel leaks

-engine explosion

-engine falling off after crash, being shot off, fire, etc.

-More realistic engine dmg model- I wanna see a dynamic degradation of an engine instead of a hard limit that is set in-game. Irl engines wont just die after a few mins but they will degrade over time as you use and abuse them. In DCS I can run the engine as hard as I want but the more I do it the more likely that I will experience a failure.

-etc. (any other dmg thats possible, especially when it comes to the engine)

 

I know some of these things are modeled but I wanna see the most realistic model that we can have. I think if DCS can deliver on their dm it will be one of the best. I'm hoping BoX can match or surpass it.

 

I'd also like to see a more realistic fluid model. I'd like to see oil leaks spurting from my engine when possible and I'd like to see oil on my windshield that actually looks realistic. 


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#29 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 14:06

My dream for a dm is for it to have all the internals modeled.

 

I wanna see the ability to dmg:

 

-fuel lines

-pistons

-coolant lines

-radiators

-prop

-prop governor

-oxygen tanks (could result in fire/explosion)

-landing gear

-hydraulic systems

-instrument panel

-electrical systems

-oil leaks 

-coolant leaks

-fuel leaks

-engine explosion

-engine falling off after crash, being shot off, fire, etc.

-More realistic engine dmg model- I wanna see a dynamic degradation of an engine instead of a hard limit that is set in-game. Irl engines wont just die after a few mins but they will degrade over time as you use and abuse them. In DCS I can run the engine as hard as I want but the more I do it the more likely that I will experience a failure.

-etc. (any other dmg thats possible, especially when it comes to the engine)

 

I know some of these things are modeled but I wanna see the most realistic model that we can have. I think if DCS can deliver on their dm it will be one of the best. I'm hoping BoX can match or surpass it.

 

I'd also like to see a more realistic fluid model. I'd like to see oil leaks spurting from my engine when possible and I'd like to see oil on my windshield that actually looks reali

 

 

I think this would result in a slideshow.........


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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#30 307_Tomcat

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 14:10

Implement that in all planes , tremendous work... But I hope for better engine damage in next year as was stated in DD.
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#31 Space_Ghost

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 14:29

I think this would result in a slideshow.........

 

Why?


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#32 CF-105

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 14:41

The things I'm looking for most would be stuff like hydraulic failure, but also much more extensive fuselage damage, like engine destruction/removal, and canopy/cockpit destruction.

 

More immersive damage to the pilot and gunners would be very much appreciated, but that would probably have to be a mod, unless the developers want an M rated flight sim on their hands.


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#33 Disarray

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 17:13

The canopy and cockpit can be damaged already. I've had some or all of the gauges shot out a whole bunch of times. And on those rarefied occasions I get to fly German I've had my canopy shot clean off of 109s more than a few times. In Soviet planes I get my canopy shot full of holes with some frequency.


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#34 =FI=Blue2

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 20:13

Hear what you guys are saying, and truly believe we'll continue to see the DM improve as the devs find margin to work it.  They're true enthusiasts themselves.  I have no doubt they want it to grow in variety & accuracy as much as any of us.

 

I've had guns disabled numerous times.  I've also been unable to open my canopy in Russian fighters after having the cockpit area shot up.  Slowed down & tried multiple times, but was forced to ride it in & belly land.  VERY cool.  The other day playing a quick mission offline I landed a [rare] decent deflection shot that EXPLODED an otherwise undamaged 109!  I've seen planes explode a few times before but always assumed it was due to cumulative damage, so it was great to see that a "perfect" shot can actually be that destructive all at once.

 

Beyond the smoke, I'd also really like to see fire appearing to varying degrees... maybe even with varying appearance, depending on what's burning.  Sometimes just a small flame on one side of the engine, other times a 'blowtorch' twice the length of the plane.  Also, occasinal flames in the cockpit would be terrifyingly cool.


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#35 CF-105

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 00:06

gauges shot out a whole bunch of times. canopy shot clean off  canopy shot full of holes 

 

I'm talking more in the order or complete destruction, a few mine shell (20 or 30 mm) rounds to the cockpit is going to do a little more than put some hole in the canopy.


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#36 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:19

Why?


If all of that is modeled then the computer has to monitor all of those systems. If it was easy it would be done already. Instead, most of those systems were either removed or simplified from the original build.
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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#37 307_Tomcat

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 07:02

If all of that is modeled then the computer has to monitor all of those systems. If it was easy it would be done already. Instead, most of those systems were either removed or simplified from the original build.


Mostly not that that additional things are computation problems but amount of work to made it into planes. Time spend on ich plane would significantly postponed its realises.
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#38 Space_Ghost

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 12:37

-snip-

 

If it was easy it would be done already.

 

-snip-

 

I don't think ease of implementation necessarily means "the work would already be done" - there are bigger picture things like development resources overall that forbid implementing every easy thing.


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#39 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 14:39

The original LaGG was far more detailed in pre-release/pre-beta and there was a video of an exploded view. I also got to fly the F4 into the ground, before public release at the announcement party, and watched it come apart. Those planes didn't have great physics to the DM but there was loads more to break and systems modeled, very similar to CloD. All of it was simplified by the time it got to beta.

 

So, even if the computation isn't a problem the overall complexity clearly was. If it was easy, it would be done already as they have clearly demonstrated it is possible. In a sense, I agree with you Ghost; there are bigger picture things that have priority and I don't see that giant list, above, getting the full light of day anytime soon.

 

And those bullet decals..................yeesh!


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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#40 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 14:47

that long posted link of all dmg types you realize is 100% pointless (also please put it in a spoiler)

But the list has dmg listed for each engine. all 8 supported
So the real DM list is only 1/8th of that length really

 


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