Rudder - What to do?

[Boris_Putz]

I'm a noob. Search 'rudder' and get no results.

 

I tried my first take off with a twist axis rudder. After several ground loops, I switch to the thumb stick axis on my throttle. That was better, and I managed to take off. After a few minutes my right aileron falls off, but I still manage to turn around and make my first landing. I actually managed to taxi into a parking corral, but couldn't stop before the propeller chewed into the wood beams (but that's another matter).

 

So I'm wondering what you do for rudder? I haven't flown a proper flight sim in ages, and it's been even longer for a real plane, and I'm just not used to needing to use a rudder. Playing Elite Dangerous for the last couple years has totally gotten me out of the habit. I loved the twist rudder and directional thrusters in ED, but that twist action really doesn't feel right while trying to take off. I imagine it feels even worse in uncoordinated flight (I assume you can side slip to lose altitude for a landing). The thumb stick worked better for takeoff but I can still see problems with that - like there are probably better things to be doing with my thumb.

 

Do I really need to buy a set of rudder pedals to fly these planes properly? Or maybe I should give the twist joystick another try, and maybe eventually get used to it? What's been your experience?

 

I do miss my old gold anodized aluminum Thrustmaster rudder pedals from back in the day. I remember seeing some plastic pedals from CH (looked like junk with the pedals right next to each other). If I do buy pedals, they will need to accommodate a wide stance and be fairly heavy duty. Any suggestions? Are there any good DIY options?

 

Thanks.

[Maple_X]

You should set rudder sensitivity and then try twist rudder again.  I set sensitivity 80% for all 3 axis.

Single engine planes with tail wheel lock: Bf109s, Yak, IL-2 are easy and good for take off and landing training. LaGG/La, MiG, P-40 are more difficult.

[RobCarter3]

I've got a set of rudder pedals on the way, but the twist rudder on my X-55 has been working fine for me to this point. You may want to set a small deadzone at the center in your controls settings to take a bit of the sensitivity out of it.

 

Avoiding ground loops in taildraggers is just plain hard due to the center of gravity being behind the main gear. I ground looped a ton when I started playing this sim. With practice, I got a feel for taxiing and the very judicious control of power, rudder, and brakes that it requires. It can definitely be done with a twist rudder.

 

I used to have a pair of CH Pro pedals back in the day, and decided to try the Thrustmaster T Flight pedals that are currently $70 on Amazon. These are narrow stance pedals like the CH Pros, but supposedly much smoother. We will see.

 

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but i think the popular Saitek Pro and Combat pedals have been discontinued. That leaves the TM T Flights ($70)(narrow), the CH Pros ($100-120)(narrow), the Logitech version of the Saitek Pros (I think they still make these?) ($170), and then your MFG Crosswinds (about $350 if you're in the US) and above. EDIT: everything currentky available below the "MFG Crosswinds and above" category is going to feel cheap and plasticky, but I can definitely verify that those CH pedals were tough.

Edited April 30, 2017 by RobCarter3

[Riderocket]

The devs are actually working on rudder updates right now.

 

Not sure when they will release said rudder update because of how busy they are with Kuban, but they mentioned sideslipping and stuff will be more realistic (its in the dev dairy I think).

 

In the FW190 you have to pull back stick to keep tail wheel locked until you have enough speed to control direction with rudder.

 

It might sound hard, but in my opinion FW190s are actually very easy to take off in!

[SAG]

you do not need to buy rudder pedals to fly properly, you can use the twist stick. but if youre like me, youll feel the need to get rudders pedals eventually (i made mine after a year of using the twist stick).

 

the downside of switching from twistick to rudder pedals was that i had to un-learn how to use rudder and then learn again to use it with my feet. it took me about 3 weeks just to start to use my rudder right (maybe im just a slow learner) but the precision i gained in shooting and flying was well worth the change. i say go rudder pedals now if you have the money or twist stick if you dont feel like investing :D

[Finkeren]

Twister stick will do fine.

 

During take off:

 

1. Lock the tailwheel (if possible)

 

2. Keep the stick pulled back to force the tail down (on the Fw 190 this also locks the tailwheel)

 

3. Try to anticipate the first side swing during take off by giving about 1/2 rudder in the opposite direction before you throttle up.

 

4. Use slow rudder movements during take off to avoid oversteering. Overcompensating with rudder will cause you to swing from side to side.

 

5. As you gain airspeed your rudder gains authority, you'll therefore generally need to slowly ease off on the rudder as you gain speed.

 

6. DON'T apply rudder in the opposite direction to counter oversteering, just ease off towards neutral and let it settle. Suddenly shifting rudder to the opposite direction during take off is a surefire way to ground loop.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Finkeren

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

So I'm wondering what you do for rudder? I haven't flown a proper flight sim in ages, and it's been even longer for a real plane, and I'm just not used to needing to use a rudder.

Check this topic on rudder usage: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/27240-when-should-i-be-using-rudder/

 

Every change of flight attitude requires all controlls to be balanced. There isn't anything as 'no need for rudder' if you want to fly properly.

 

As others have pointed out if you cant controll rudder properly it's a settings issue. The announced changes to rudder behaviour have nothing to do with that and probably won't do you any good.

[xDeadMan]

I took off without flaps for the first year of playing this game. I suddenly decided to use flaps a couple weeks ago and take off seems to go a lot smoother for me.

[LFL-EightyPLUS]

i generally use very low sensitivity...and differential breaking during taxi and take off..

[Finkeren]

i generally use very low sensitivity...and differential breaking during taxi and take off..

Don't use brakes during take off, unless you do it specifically to abort the take off.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

you can also just buy very very cheap Racing pedals (mine cost $10 about 11 years ago, they from a PS2/PC and work 100% fine for rudders (without toe brakes)

Many secondhand pc shops will have them around the world im sure..

LOGITECH DRIVING FORCE EX

[ShamrockOneFive]

Been using twist sticks for years with no ill effects. I can fly just as good as the rudder pedals guys although I must say that its been considerably easier to do rudder work on the VKB Gladiator twist stick than my old X-52 twist.

[Professor1942]

I've always hated the twisty thing so I just use keys.

[Holtzauge]

If you can afford it buy a good set of controls: I used to fly with Potentiometer based controls that were shaking like crazy. I then decided to indulge and upgraded to Hall sensor based controls and my flying and enjoyment of the game improved immensely. So sure, you can used to flying with simpler gear but if your budget allows it, buy Hall sensor based controls. In addition, when it comes to pedals, I highly recommend MFG Crosswinds: Sure they cost but IMHO are worth every penny.....

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 

With the MiG, Bf110, P-40, Ju-52 and Fw190s, and Spits and 109s as well sometimes you do need to Coordinate with Rudder precisely quite a lot. 

 

The P-40 especially seems to be Schrödingers Cat in that Regard being considered both stable and unstable. 

There will be a Yaw,Roll Fix soon which will change quite a lot so this may not be true quite soon.

Edited May 1, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Horna]

Is there any rudder setup where the pedals are separated? I don't want to sit like I had a miniskirt, my jewels needs lebensraum!

[Chief_Mouser]

Is there any rudder setup where the pedals are separated? I don't want to sit like I had a miniskirt, my jewels needs lebensraum!

 

 

MFG Crosswind http://mfg.simundza.com/products ; had mine for a few months now and the difference between them and the old CH pedals is exponential (not just in the family jewels department either).

Rather expensive though; you will have to decide if you are going to commit to flight sims big time. If you do, you won't regret buying these.

Cheers.

[Boris_Putz]

Many great tips. Thanks. I think I'll go back to the twist rudder, play with sensitivity settings and dead zone, remember to keep the stick pulled back while starting the takeoff run, and practice, practice, practice. But with playing in VR, I think rudder pedals, with toe brakes, is really the way to go - the keyboard is not my friend, and I don't think VA would work for differential braking.

 

Those MFG Crosswinds look pretty good. I hadn't heard of them before. I'm still concerned about them needing to support my legs. I wonder if I could install a platform to support my legs and feet, and push on the pedals and toe brakes (?). I saw some that had it right, with the floor supporting your feet and legs, but at $650 I think I'll pass (gf-rp-2).

 

Oh, and about the wide stance. I guess that may not be realistic for small private planes, like a Cessna or Piper. But it looks like the old fighters had very wide spacing. The wider the better in my case.

[Chief_Mouser]

Those MFG Crosswinds look pretty good. I hadn't heard of them before. I'm still concerned about them needing to support my legs. I wonder if I could install a platform to support my legs and feet, and push on the pedals and toe brakes (?). I saw some that had it right, with the floor supporting your feet and legs, but at $650 I think I'll pass (gf-rp-2).

 

Oh, and about the wide stance. I guess that may not be realistic for small private planes, like a Cessna or Piper. But it looks like the old fighters had very wide spacing. The wider the better in my case.

 

I have mine raised off the floor by about 5"/13 cm. I looked at Hurricane and Bf109 cockpit schematics to try and re-create the correct height, distance and angle between seat and pedals. Plus, for good measure, had a look at the driver's seat/wheel/brake pedal in the car. It's comfortable, so why not?

Cheers.

[Guest deleted@30725]

What's been your experience?

 

Understand the basics and then just play the game. Advice is OK, but you need to use the equipment and get used to it. As you do you will gradually tune curves, sensitivities and dead spots to your liking. I find there is a lot of tweaking to get everything to feel perfect, but while tweaking it's important to use the game and have fun with it. Remember, it's not a job and it should not be a chore to learn and become good again.

 

You know you won't be an expect in a few hours so relax, take your time and have fun .

[Boris_Putz]

Another good reason to get a set of rudder pedals is that I could retire my T16000M twist stick and get a CH FighterStick - more buttons! I had a gameport version back in the day and I really miss it.

 

Then I browsed through the manual again today and one of the reasons I would want rudder pedals - toe brakes - doesn't appear to even be supported by the Russian planes. Maybe you can assign brake activation to one of the toe brakes (but I assume not both)? But that may be confusing to apply brakes using the left rudder pedal toe brake, while applying right rudder in an attempt to make a tighter right turn. Probably easier to use some other button (or axis - I still need to check out the options).

 

But it looks like toe brakes are supported on the German planes, but I honestly didn't plan on flying any of those.

 

Oh well, I'll get a chance to play with all these various settings this weekend.

[Sokol1]

I tried my first take off with a twist axis rudder. After several ground loops, I switch to the thumb stick axis on my throttle. That was better, and I managed to take off. After a few minutes my right aileron falls off, but I still manage to turn around and make my first landing. I actually managed to taxi into a parking corral, but couldn't stop before the propeller chewed into the wood beams (but that's another matter).

 

 

As you don't mention what stick and throttle models you have is difficult  give opinion about the of ministick, but if is model use axis and have spring for return to center position is good option for twist on stick - specially that you are "badly accustomed" with their use in the "non atmosphere" flights of ED.

 

Your thumb finger react to brain inputs more fast than you foots.

 

Today are available the "hight end" rudder pedals made in Poland, Russia, China.

 

With metal or composite material with same strength of metal in the structure, ball bearings in pivots, contactless sensor instead potentiometer - that still in use in "entry level" pedals from CH, Logitech and Thrustmaster.

 

VKB T-Rudder Mk.IV - model with vertical operation and not back and forth, good for use in office chair, has not "tip-toe brakes", not issue in BoS as allow use a virtual "British/Russian 'bicycle lever' brake".

 

BAUR BRD

 

MFG Crosswind

 

SLAW Viper

 

Unless T-Rudder all models require wait in queue for buy.

 

 

 

Then I browsed through the manual again today and one of the reasons I would want rudder pedals - toe brakes - doesn't appear to even be supported by the Russian planes. Maybe you can assign brake activation to one of the toe brakes (but I assume not both)? But that may be confusing to apply brakes using the left rudder pedal toe brake, while applying right rudder in an attempt to make a tighter right turn. Probably easier to use some other button (or axis - I still need to check out the options).

 

You can set this "fake toe brakes" in rudder pedal for Russian planes, but this will mess the "toe brakes" in Luftwaffe, P-40 and I-16 planes, because this "fake toe brakes" in pedals will press the brakes in both wheel for this planes, not left or right brakes as expected.

 

The reason is that in BoS all planes can use "British/Russian 'bicycle lever' brake". More about there: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28805-rudder-pedals-and-russian-brakes/

 

But for Russian plane you can set both brake pedals for "Wheel brakes" (each game command accept up to 3 different inputs - keys/buttons/axis), so press the right pedal brake both wheels is braked, move rudder bar for right = right wheel braked, and will work too for P-40, i-16 (as you don't fly in Luftwaffe planes) if you move the rudder bar together in same way. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Sokol1

[ACG_KaiLae]

It's not complicated for the difference in brakes with rudder pedals between Russian and German planes. I have saitek rudder pedals, they have a axis for both left and right side "brake" (though you can assign anything you want there actually). For german planes, the left brake is the left brake, the right brake is the right brake. For russian, the right brake is brakes, period. 

 

Also as a CH stick owner, I can attest that nothing short of a sledgehammer will stop it from working. 

[Mmaruda]

I got pedals, but used the twisty stick. It was hard to get used to pedals, I think twisty stick tends to be easier in some aspects but sucks at others such as sideways flying (stick left, rudder right). As for ground loops, you need acknowledge that every plane acts differently and has different take off and taxi procedures to minimize the the ground looping effect. Some plane are easier to operate when you just hold the brakes, slam the throttle to max and then lot go of the brakes, while other require you to gradually increase the throttle depending on the speed. Then there is also the tail wheel locking mechanisms that make it easier to control the plane on the ground which are different per plane and some planes don't have them. The 109 has latch for that, while in the 190 you need to keep your stick aft to lock the wheel. Some planes don't have a lockable tail wheel and then there is the Mig-3... And then there is differential braking which works differently in German and Russian planes.

 

In any case, if you don't have pedals, I do recommend using the twisty stick for rudder, you will figure it out and I think this is the easiest way to get going. With proper pedals it will be hard to get used to coordinating your legs with your hands for at least a week.

 

In any case, you should start with a plane that is easy to work with on the ground and look at the procedures. I recommend the 109 as a good starting machine. Look up some tutorials on YT, the official familiarization videos for DCS K4 are very nice and they work for all the 109s in BOS as well.

[OrLoK]

I have some pedals I use from a g25 but I still find it hard with those to control my rudder accurately on the ground.

 

I got so fed up I went for some MFG's. Hopefully they will help.

 

I found I couldn't handle a twisty stick. far to modern

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I've always hated the twisty thing so I just use keys.

[Chief_Mouser]

The real basics are: an aeroplane has rudder pedals. So buy some if you can afford them.

Over the past fifteen years I've progressed from keyboard to twist rudder to CH pedals (two sets) to MFG Crosswinds. Each one was a step up... each time something nearer to the feeling of flying a real aircraft. But in the end it all comes down to available money.

Cheers.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Comparing IRL flying and Ingame I don't miss Pedals at all.