Jump to content
71st_AH_Scojo

When should I be using rudder?

Recommended Posts

I recently bought some pedals. I was under the impression that it would give me much more rudder control and therefore help me out in taxiing, takeoff, and gunnery...

 

However, I don't feel much more in control than with my twist stick, and several people have said not to use rudder to aim.

 

Right now I only use rudder when taxiing, taking off, aiming during strafing, and keeping a twin engine stable when operating on one engine. I did all of these just fine with twist stick and pedals don't make it any easier.

 

So when and how should I be using rudder in general flight and in combat? Is there some major benefit to rudder pedals I haven't discovered yet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Always keep one eye on the "ball" or turn co-ordinator

 

for best performance it always should be centered

 

"step on the ball" is an often used phrase

 

I used to get a smack on the back of the head by one of my instructors whenever it was out to one side for a moment  :cool:

 

after a time it becomes a bit more second nature

 

obviously this does not always apply during landing or takeoff roll or intentional sideslip etc.

 

co-ordinated use of rudder and aileron will improve maneuverability/performance

 

using the same procedure in game will always help

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Always keep one eye on the "ball" or turn co-ordinator

 

for best performance it always should be centered

 

I used to get a smack on the back of the head by one of my instructors whenever it was out to one side for a moment  :cool:

 

I've heard this before and so I started to check this during turning every so often. However, I've actually never seen the ball slip out during a turn. Maybe I'm looking away when it does.

 

During a turn, when do you usually see slip?

 

How dramatic are the negative effects of not keeping the ball centered?

 

Were/Are you a professional pilot? What did/do you fly?

Edited by 71st_AH_Scojo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ride on MiG-3 and try left and right tight turn without rudder. The bole jump to side and plane stalls easily.

Practice horizontal zig-zag turn to keep the bole center.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Negetive effects of not keeping the ball Centre.

 

Stall

Accelerated stall

Spins

Ah ok so I've turned in fighters and felt it go unstable, about to enter a spin or stall. If I had been using rudder I could have kept that same turn without a stall?

 

I'll have to practice that. Maybe that's why I've felt there's such a difference between enemy fighter's maneuvering in turn fights over mine.

 

Thanks!

 

Ride on MiG-3 and try left and right tight turn without rudder. The bole jump to side and plane stalls easily.

Practice horizontal zig-zag turn to keep the bole center.

I haven't flown the MIG much, but I will keep that in mind, Thanks!

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What sensitivity do you guys set your rudder to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use 50% sensitivity, 8% central dead- zone.

 

The central dead zone might not be necessary if you have good pedals - mine are a bit old and crappy, so the deadzone prevents small accidental inputs near the neutral position.

 

I find the 50% sensitivity gives enough extra control near the neutral position, without a huge change in sensitivity as your input increases. Again if I had better pedals, I might just stick with the 0% (ie 1/1 straight line response).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use 50% sensitivity, 8% central dead- zone.

 

The central dead zone might not be necessary if you have good pedals - mine are a bit old and crappy, so the deadzone prevents small accidental inputs near the neutral position.

 

I find the 50% sensitivity gives enough extra control near the neutral position, without a huge change in sensitivity as your input increases. Again if I had better pedals, I might just stick with the 0% (ie 1/1 straight line response).

 

Thanks! I'll try 50% and reign it in from there to see if I have any better luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I haven't flown the MIG much, but I will keep that in mind, Thanks!

 

 

MiG-3 is the extreme example of yaw unstability. Set sensitivity and practice in your plane to use rudder in conbination with aileron.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

several people have said not to use rudder to aim.

 

They have no idea what they are talking about then. You can't aim without rudder input, it is in fact what should be directing your aim. If you want to get better . . . Run from these people. Lol

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the help everyone. I've been consistently using more rudder in turns and it definitely helps. With more practice I think I'll have the nuances down

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rule is : push the rudder the same side the ball goes to keep it to the center : that will avoid slipping and keep symmetrical flight.

Edited by F/JG300_Touch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8xcm5xsuo

You need rudder threwout the flight for performing coordinated turns (= a very stable and low drag inducing turn). If you refrain from using rudder or the appropiate amount the result will be unstable flight characteristics (nose swing, stall, spin) and increased drag.

 

Use of rudder is most important whenever you're initiating or exiting a turn. To do this both rudder and aileroun deflection to the side you want to turn into are required. Mind you that with changing airspeed the responsiveness of your controll surfaces changes. This means that at high speeds you need much less rudder input compared to aileroun to perform a coordinated turn than at low speeds. 

 

What is also important is how to apply rudder and aileroun. Don't apply both at the same time but let the rudder lag slightly behind the aileroun whenever you're entering or exiting a turn. When using both simultaneously the aircraft will yaw into the turn thus making it uncoordinated.

 

As the video above shows you don't even have to watch the ball to perform coordinated turns with some practise. You can easily use your gunsight. Just try to fly in a straight line and perform a roll reversal (banking left-right-left while staying on course). If you do it correctly your gunsight will not pivot away from the point you aim at. This is really important for shooting as well.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

However, I've actually never seen the ball slip out during a turn. Maybe I'm looking away when it does.

 

Make sure you have "Auto rudder" unchecked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8xcm5xsuo

You need rudder threwout the flight for performing coordinated turns (= a very stable and low drag inducing turn). If you refrain from using rudder or the appropiate amount the result will be unstable flight characteristics (nose swing, stall, spin) and increased drag.

 

Use of rudder is most important whenever you're initiating or exiting a turn. To do this both rudder and aileroun deflection to the side you want to turn into are required. Mind you that with changing airspeed the responsiveness of your controll surfaces changes. This means that at high speeds you need much less rudder input compared to aileroun to perform a coordinated turn than at low speeds.

 

What is also important is how to apply rudder and aileroun. Don't apply both at the same time but let the rudder lag slightly behind the aileroun whenever you're entering or exiting a turn. When using both simultaneously the aircraft will yaw into the turn thus making it uncoordinated.

 

As the video above shows you don't even have to watch the ball to perform coordinated turns with some practise. You can easily use your gunsight. Just try to fly in a straight line and perform a roll reversal (banking left-right-left while staying on course). If you do it correctly your gunsight will not pivot away from the point you aim at. This is really important for shooting as well.

Do you think that adverse yaw is modeled enough in Bos planes (bigger plans have it more) but it seems to me that fighters are lacking in this department. I read Stick and rudder book by Wolfgang Langewiesche which he is referring to. Btw In that book I read and understood great deal about wind and airplane relentionship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you think that adverse yaw is modeled enough in Bos planes (bigger plans have it more) but it seems to me that fighters are lacking in this department. I read Stick and rudder book by Wolfgang Langewiesche which he is referring to. Btw In that book I read and understood great deal about wind and airplane relentionship.

Can't tell for sure since my expirience is mainly in gliders (which due to their large wings have plenty of adverse yaw) but it seems quite plausible in the bigger aircraft like the 110, He 111 and especially Ju 52 to me.

 

Since the devs already said rudder and roll behaviour will be looked at again this could be an area of improvement in future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a fighter aircraft a coordinated turn will not be an issue as fighters usually turn at steep angles, however general aviation aircrafts do not bank at steep angles where pessenger confort and safety is the first priority on the contrary a fighter turning at a steep angle will tend to rise or lower its nose, thats where you better gently push the rudders to compansate that and keep the horizon in the middle not to gain or lose altitude.

 

You may also use your rudders at combat for barrel roll and snap roll manuevers.

 

A twisting stick, compared to a rudder pedal is more responsive than the pedal, so practically twisting is more practical for controlling "the game" (the real thing is totally different) and your hands are more sensitive than your feet besides common plastic pedals like Saitek are not that efficient and sensitive as they are promoted.

 

But of course, no doubt rudder pedals are much more immersive and cool. One obvious advantage of using a seperate rudder pedal on your pc is that as they are seperate devices there wont be an interference in the controls. On a twisting joystick, we usually add some unintended twists while pulling the stick right or left.

Edited by Europa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a fighter aircraft a coordinated turn will not be an issue as fighters usually turn at steep angles, however general aviation aircrafts do not bank at steep angles where pessenger confort and safety is the first priority on the contrary a fighter turning at a steep angle will tend to rise or lower its nose, thats where you better gently push the rudders to compansate that and keep the horizon in the middle not to gain or lose altitude.

 

 

Following yours logic, in the fighter i would do oppsite rudder movement to which is demonstrated to do coordinated turns.

Edited by 307_Tomcat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the original question of this thread, as the Author seems to have slipped off from it as well due to so much informative text about a lot of things not answering the question!

 

The main advantage for going from a Joystick with twist function (for rudder) compared to have standalone rudder pedals would be very few but some important ones for the person wanting more detailed input on controls:

 

1. When you have rudder pedals you can assign toe brakes to your individual pedals, where as if you use a twist function on your rudder pedal you would only be able to brake one of the each inputs at one time. (Unless you map axis on your joystick or throttle on some axis and that makes little sense).

 

Example explained: With a joystick with twist rudder it is possible to give some rudder input and for example some braking added to that corresponding input. Giving for example 25% left rudder and braking with pulse 0-100%

 

With rudder pedals, you can actually give 25% rudder, and give any variation from 0-100% of the left brake OR right brake simultaneously. Lets say you can brake 55% right, 100% left and adding 40% of rudder left.

In theory all this can be achieved with a joystick as well but you would need a lot of axis and buttons just for this.

 

2. Your coordination between hands and legs will give you a better feel for what state your aircraft is currently in. This is hard to explain, but imagine you are in a situation where you do aerobatics. Your body will learn for how long time and how hard you are applying the forces needed to perform those crisp maneuvers correcty. In theory it can also be done with a joystick as there is no muscular force required to kick a rudder compared with aircraft IRL. This means that the only advantages in this case is purely feel and sense of coordination that could perhaps be a little higher once you have obtained a feel for the aircraft in question.

 

3. For longer stretches of flying with aircraft that does not have trim functions on rudder, you will enjoy having rudder pedals as they allow you to set a certain rudder input for a long period of time without you having to be on the stick constantly. Your legs will be able to press a certain input and hold it there for quite some time, in fact after a while you wont feel that you are applying rudder unless you are very offset due to damage etc. Your hands will be free to do whatever tasks needed without having the aircraft sway back and forth if you take them off the stick (should you be on twist rudder only). Food, drinks, map reading, aircraft management in general. There are numerous things you can do while aircraft will be flying straight (on yaw axis at least)

 

I personally use rudder very sparsely and mostly on the following occasions:

 

- Taxiing with differential braking and augmentation with rudder and power input (although in general ground modeling in this sim is horrible)

- Takeoff (to counter torque effects, crosswind and prop slip)

- Aiming (only when doing strafing runs)

- Performance (keeping turn and slip as clean as possible as explained by others above in detail)

- Landing (however used lightly due to risk of low speed induced wingovers)

 

To sum up, you won't gain incredibly much going from twist to rudder pedals, but... it will further give you a sensation of a proper simulation of how aircraft controls are set up and why they are ( in most cases identical on all aircraft ).

 

You could also take the same question:

Would it be better to have the throttle and X amount of buttons separately like a HOTAS or would you do just fine in having the throttle and X buttons (plus the ones already there) on the base of the joystick? (As featured on certain models)

My answer is similar as above, you wont gain much more than a more true feel of how airplanes are setup. And they are done so for a reason, not much the simmer behind a desktop.

 

Hope you will have good use of your pedals in any case!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a fighter turning at a steep angle will tend to rise or lower its nose, thats where you better gently push the rudders to compansate that and keep the horizon in the middle not to gain or lose altitude.

That's a false statement. You don't use opposite rudder in a turn because it will create a slip angle which slows you down and threatens a stall.

To perform a coordinated turn you do:

- enter by coordinating appropiate aileround and rudder into the direction of the turn

- keep the nose at the horizon by pulling the elevator, leave rudder and aileroun neutral

- exit by coordinating appropiate aileroun and rudder against the direction of the turn

 

Following this practise you can do well without looking at your inclinometer.

 

Also a coordinated turn is preferrably performed in any type of aircraft no matter if it's a fighter, glider or airliner. It's the same physics for all of them.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is not false. more or less you suggest the same idea with me while you define my statement as false so it is evident that you probably mis-judged what I want to tell with the word "opposite". I say Opposite to the the nose attitude not the turn attitude (though don't remember I used the word opposite)

Edited by Europa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is not false. more or less you suggest the same idea with me while you define my statement as false so it is evident that you probably mis-judged what I want to tell with the word "opposite". I say Opposite to the the nose attitude not the turn attitude (though don't remember I used the word opposite)

It still is false in the way that you suggest making use of rudder in a coordinated turn depending on nose attitude. Rudder usage in a corrdinated turn is determined by the ball, not the nose of the aircraft. Attitude is contorlled by elevator only in a coordinated turn (pull elevator, nose rises, push, it loweres - it's the same as outside of a turn).

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

several people have said not to use rudder to aim.
 

 

They have no idea what they are talking about then. You can't aim without rudder input, it is in fact what should be directing your aim. If you want to get better . . . Run from these people. Lol

 

Please read fully.   ;)

 

I see you like Random, me too.  My average hit percent now is 32%.  (with flying fighters)  Personal best strafing tanks.  5 tanks 1 AA  93.3%  http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sortie/83099/?tour=5 

 

Some things you can't argue.  If someone's telling you to not use rudder to aim.  They are WRONG!   :lol:   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It still is false in the way that you suggest making use of rudder in a coordinated turn depending on nose attitude. Rudder usage in a corrdinated turn is determined by the ball, not the nose of the aircraft. Attitude is contorlled by elevator only in a coordinated turn (pull elevator, nose rises, push, it loweres - it's the same as outside of a turn).

 

Here is a video by University of North Dakota Flight School. please refer to this video for more information:

this is classified as a Steep Turn. It is more or less a coordinated turn but there are differences. Instead of a slip you maintain the pitch attitude on the horizon. 

Edited by Europa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a video by University of North Dakota Flight School. please refer to this video for more information:

this is classified as a Steep Turn. It is more or less a coordinated turn but there are differences. Instead of a slip you maintain the pitch attitude on the horizon. 

It says the same I did, use rudder to enter/ exit a turn and correct attitude druing the turn with pitch.

 

Unlike this badly recorded and laggy video made in X-Plane you try to oppose me with, even though it confirms my statement, I can back this up with more than enought real lfight hours.

 

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont understand what you understand from my words but I am sure you deliberately insist to understand things from the opposite way.

 

If the nose pitches high which way do you push the rudder, it is the same direction as you press for a coordinated turn. It is the same. You undertand my saying in the wrong way. That is why you think the video says the same thing as you did. Because I say the same thing. 

 

UND is an official flight school by the way. I am sure they have no intention to make you visualy pleased with their information.

Edited by Europa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that there's no point arguing with people who delibretly put things the way they like and make it a point while it shouldn't be. Reread what I said and what the video demonstrates. You won't find this in either of both:

 

If the nose pitches high which way do you push the rudder, it is the same direction as you press for a coordinated turn.

Until than I guess we're done here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently bought some pedals. I was under the impression that it would give me much more rudder control and therefore help me out in taxiing, takeoff, and gunnery... However, I don't feel much more in control than with my twist stick, and several people have said not to use rudder to aim. Right now I only use rudder when taxiing, taking off, aiming during strafing, and keeping a twin engine stable when operating on one engine. I did all of these just fine with twist stick and pedals don't make it any easier. So when and how should I be using rudder in general flight and in combat? Is there some major benefit to rudder pedals I haven't discovered yet?

 

So the first thing I'd say is that when I got first got rudder pedals it took me a while to get used to them. However, once I got used to them I found them to be far superior to a twist stick. The biggest advantage for me is that it means that your rudder inputs are not coupled to your pitch/roll inputs. With a twist stick it's very hard to keep your 3 flight axes truly independent ... a bit of rudder accidentally ends up also adding unwanted pitch or roll inputs.

 

As for what to use the rudder for ... I'd say just keep flying with it and getting used to it, you start to find all the wonderful things you can do with rudder. Practising coordinated turns is a good start, but I'd also suggest just trying to get a feel for the plane. Watch the nose, see how it behaves: when you do a manoeuvre is the nose sliding off one way or the other? Try and keep it from flopping about at all, try to always keep it pointed exactly where you want. You also start to just feel that your turns are wrong without it, they feel off .. they're "sloshy".

 

I really took to just practising and enjoying flying the plane for ages. Not dogfighting, just flying and really being in total control of it, getting it to do exactly what I wanted ... and I'm still learning. I have to say that for me personally VR has also helped a lot here, you just get such a different sense of the plane in VR.

 

The difference with pedals is in how precise and subtle you can be with the rudder. Things requiring very gross rudder inputs you can do with a twist, but getting the plane nailed right where you want it requires pedals IMO. I found when I really got used to my pedals, I started to see so many opportunities to use the rudder. Got a horizontal turn that's started to slip a bit higher than you want, losing too much speed? Slide it back down with a touch of rudder. Plane about to stall and drop a wing? Catch it before it goes with the rudder. Adding a bit of rudder to your defensive barrels rolls can help throw the other person's aim because you're not going where you seem to be going. Can't quite pull enough lead for a kill shot, even though you've got plenty of energy? Add rudder to the turn to momentarily increase the turn rate.

 

When I first started flying I basically ignored the rudder: roll the plane, pull on the elevators, job done. But after getting my pedals and learning to the use them, I started to use the rudder more and more. Then I began to wonder how I ever flew without them ... I suspect the answer was "badly".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So the first thing I'd say is that when I got first got rudder pedals it took me a while to get used to them. However, once I got used to them I found them to be far superior to a twist stick. The biggest advantage for me is that it means that your rudder inputs are not coupled to your pitch/roll inputs. With a twist stick it's very hard to keep your 3 flight axes truly independent ... a bit of rudder accidentally ends up also adding unwanted pitch or roll inputs.

 

As for what to use the rudder for ... I'd say just keep flying with it and getting used to it, you start to find all the wonderful things you can do with rudder. Practising coordinated turns is a good start, but I'd also suggest just trying to get a feel for the plane. Watch the nose, see how it behaves: when you do a manoeuvre is the nose sliding off one way or the other? Try and keep it from flopping about at all, try to always keep it pointed exactly where you want. You also start to just feel that your turns are wrong without it, they feel off .. they're "sloshy".

 

I really took to just practising and enjoying flying the plane for ages. Not dogfighting, just flying and really being in total control of it, getting it to do exactly what I wanted ... and I'm still learning. I have to say that for me personally VR has also helped a lot here, you just get such a different sense of the plane in VR.

 

The difference with pedals is in how precise and subtle you can be with the rudder. Things requiring very gross rudder inputs you can do with a twist, but getting the plane nailed right where you want it requires pedals IMO. I found when I really got used to my pedals, I started to see so many opportunities to use the rudder. Got a horizontal turn that's started to slip a bit higher than you want, losing too much speed? Slide it back down with a touch of rudder. Plane about to stall and drop a wing? Catch it before it goes with the rudder. Adding a bit of rudder to your defensive barrels rolls can help throw the other person's aim because you're not going where you seem to be going. Can't quite pull enough lead for a kill shot, even though you've got plenty of energy? Add rudder to the turn to momentarily increase the turn rate.

 

When I first started flying I basically ignored the rudder: roll the plane, pull on the elevators, job done. But after getting my pedals and learning to the use them, I started to use the rudder more and more. Then I began to wonder how I ever flew without them ... I suspect the answer was "badly".

I've definitely been noticing what you're saying now that I've had them for a few weeks. I really just spoke too soon.

 

Interesting point on using it during evading. I'll have to dabble with that some.

 

Thanks for all of the info and help, everyone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have to try 50% rudder sensitivity. Right now I'm at 100% with a deadzone and they are crazy touchy. I don't feel like I coordinate turns very good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try even lower..

You want your first 1/4 of pedal deflection to = about first 1/8th 1/10th of actual rudder deflection.

I am running 100% sensitivity in game (which = Full Non Linear Curve without any added deadzone)
Then in my Saitek gaming software i have rudders set to 0% sensitivity with only a 5% deadzone so if i bump pedal a bit 2-3mm my plane wont move.

But still too touchy - will just take a while to get used to it.
Like people who play FPS games Competitively using only a Trackball/ Trackpad and no mouse.


also just to be clear..

Re: "Adding a bit of rudder to your defensive barrel rolls"

All barrel rolls require the use of the rudder if you do not use it you will do an aileron roll (if the planes wing design allows it)
While its true you can do a sloppy barrel roll without rudder its still very axial around the aileron axis.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have to try 50% rudder sensitivity. Right now I'm at 100% with a deadzone and they are crazy touchy. I don't feel like I coordinate turns very good.

 

Best thing to do is just fly around the airfield making a variety of turns, different speeds, elevator use etc. If you cannot keep the ball centered after a bit of practice, your sensitivity is probably too high. Trial and error should find a sensitivity that works for you - 50% is fine for me with my pedals, but given that pedals vary I do not think there is any "best" setting for everyone.

 

When you are making large sudden rudder inputs, as in an evasive move, you will still get the full rudder range. 

 

On the shooting issue - I think the point is that if you are properly lined up flying co-ordinated and aiming at the right place, you will not need rudder to adjust aim. If you are not, rudder use will tend to hose-pipe your rounds: you might get hits but very few and waste a lot of ammo. I am really noticing this in the Yak in Juri's "Ivan's War" - those cannon shells get used up amazingly quickly.  So not adjusting with rudder will make you a better shot long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So not adjusting with rudder will make you a better shot long term.

 

:huh: By all means try both and see what works.   :rolleyes: 

 

. . .

 

Kes

I run with 60% rudder.  I would advise not to have any deadzone in your rudder.  That's what is causing your touchy problem probably.  You always want a nice smooth transition across the whole deflection.  There is no rudder center really when you are flying.  You fly by feel and "step on the ball."  You don't have to look at the ball after a while you'll be able to feel the yaw in the plane and compensate.  This is very important in the 109 because lack of rudder trim.  You'll hardy ever fly rudder centered in the 109 or any other fighter.  So you see there is no reason to have a deadzone.  My opinion about rudder, the stick is used to get close to the target, the rudder is used to aim at the target.  They work hand and hand.  

 

Good luck.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×