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JG4_Sputnik

The AI: does it ever stop?

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Had quite a few sorties now (in VR) and with the awesome PWCG (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/19183-introducing-pat-wilson-campaign-generator-bos/) where I flew the Bf-F4.

However I've noticed that the AI NEVER want to stop fighting. Its so annoying. You can beat the hell out of it, different smoke trails and still they engage and engage.

 

Even worse, they do chase you across the whole map just to entangle you in a 10min circle fight above your base and all you want is to land due to low fuel but it don't let you. Doesn't care about the flak and the fact that it never will make it to home base. Just attacks and attacks stupidly.

 

It's pretty annoying since almost every sortie I've lost about 50-80% of my pilots and mostly in the last 10 mins when two heavily damaged LaGGs or whatever turn and turn and my stupid wingmen dont know how to fight like this and get caught eventually. And no, I can't order them to rtb because I'm not the leader in that scenario.

 

Also I've seen quite some strange behaviour, that there are 4 enemies chasing me (only me) and 100m beside, above and behind them my 5 wingmen fly along and don't even care about the enemy. Could be that they are newbies, but still?

 

Can you please do something against that?

Would be nice, since this pretty much breaks the SP.

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I absolutely can confirm this. I made similar observations just afew days ago, Which, again, stopped me playing PWCG, because it is absolutely no fun playing it with that kind of AI behaviour. One observation I'd like to add, are enemy aircrafts, only defending against the player.

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I've had a very different experience since the patches just before 2.009. None of the enemy have been ganging up on me and they seem pretty good about splitting up on targets and also stick to their own objectives pretty well.

 

What was the enemy flying, and what was the mission type? I'll have to see if I can replicate this in my own missions

Edited by 71st_AH_Scojo

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I've had a very different experience since the patches just before 2.009. None of the enemy have been ganging up on me and they seem pretty good about splitting up on targets and also stick to their own objectives pretty well.

 

What was the enemy flying, and what was the mission type? I'll have to see if I can replicate this in my own missions

 

It doesn't matter, I've had all the mission types: attack, defend, intercept, you name it. It were LaGGs and Mig3's and Yaks.

Hell, one time my 3 wingmen got shot down by 2 Il2's...  :wacko:

I'll try again and will be flying with only top military rank pilots, maybe it will get better from our side, the enemy I can't influence though.

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It doesn't matter, I've had all the mission types: attack, defend, intercept, you name it. It were LaGGs and Mig3's and Yaks.

Hell, one time my 3 wingmen got shot down by 2 Il2's...  :wacko:

I'll try again and will be flying with only top military rank pilots, maybe it will get better from our side, the enemy I can't influence though.

Ok. I'll start recording my PWCG missions then and see if I'm somehow oblivious to what's really going on.

 

I think one reason I might not feel the same right now is all of my missions have resulted in almost clear victories.

 

One IL-2 mission, my flight intercepted a flight of JU-87s and some 109s. I felt they all behaved logically and we eventually parted ways with a few downed aircraft on both sides. Maybe there were some other factors that resulted in that and it's not the norm. In fact, come to think of it, our P-40 escorts were nowhere to be found after we separated and continued to our ground targets. I assumed they were shot down, but maybe they somehow tangled up with the 109s and the problem lies with AI fighters vs Human and AI fighters.

 

My recent BF-109 campaign's missions have all either resulted in us downing all of the enemy or me having to RTB without my flight due to running dry or taking damage.

 

If I can get a mission in that exhibits the behaviors you're talking about, maybe we can start to figure out what the problem might be and let the devs know.

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Ok nice.

BTW I just found an option where you can set the odds of facing veteran or novice enemy. I downed it from 35 to 10. I hope that now I get more clear results in engagements...

 

Well try this; shot at a plane of your choice until it draws heavy smoke. Then disengage and watch what it does. I bet it won't return to base but start to engage you again. It only stops when it drops dead, unfortunately. I only fly blue, but I assume the AI is the same on both sides.

 

Also a problem is that the AI doesn't seem to understand the concept of boom and zoom and therefore it turns way too often resulting in overly proportional loss on blue side. I've yet to have an engagement where none of my guys get killed or shot down. No matter if you meet Ratas or La5's.

 

Cause if all the hurt planes fight on, there's no chance they can return to base and survive. And if you have 4 healthy guys on your side and 3 damaged on the other it is still 4:4. So the fight goes on until one side is completely wiped out and the majority of the survivors are damaged.

In reality you should have a 4:1 advantage (3 went home or at least tryed) and easily win the fight or let the poor guy rtb when you are out of fuel or ammo. So this results in too many unnecessary losses which makes it somewhat unsatisfying.

 

Maybe in the BoS internal campaign it doesn't count so much since you have no "squad" that you take from mission to mission, but if you play PWCG you pretty soon notice that your whole squat gets replaced rather fast.

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Well try this; shot at a plane of your choice until it draws heavy smoke. Then disengage and watch what it does. I bet it won't return to base but start to engage you again. It only stops when it drops dead, unfortunately. I only fly blue, but I assume the AI is the same on both sides.

 

Also a problem is that the AI doesn't seem to understand the concept of boom and zoom and therefore it turns way too often resulting in overly proportional loss on blue side. I've yet to have an engagement where none of my guys get killed or shot down. No matter if you meet Ratas or La5's.

Ok, I'll give it a try

 

Sadly, I don't think we can expect AI to be modified to boom n zoom well any time soon as that would take some pretty extensive logic work and the team doesn't have a person dedicated to AI right now.

 

In fact, that's the main reason I never fly Russian fighters in SP.

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Just asking, I am not sure of the answer myself but... I do not find the VVS planes to be the classic turn fighters that they were in IL2: Original.  The 1C performance sheet posted elsewhere on this forum says as much.  The LaGG-3 and Yak-3 are the best and yet still compare unfavorably to all of the 109 variants.  So is it really all that unrealistic for the German AI to get into a circle fight, unless they are 190's?

 

 

...In fact, that's the main reason I never fly Russian fighters in SP.

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Salutations,

 

Blowing a wing off of an AI plane pretty much stops em. :)

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biehn-reese-734x310.jpg

 

 

Listen and understand.

That BoX AI is OUT THERE.

It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with...it doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.

And it absolutely will not stop - ever. Until you are dead.

 

 

 

 

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There is a RTB parameter for the AI that should make it go home when damaged.  I know that PWCG sets it.  Not sure if the AI ever thinks "I'm outnumbered, this is a bad idea".

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Even worse, they do chase you across the whole map just to entangle you in a 10min circle fight above your base and all you want is to land due to low fuel but it don't let you. Doesn't care about the flak and the fact that it never will make it to home base. Just attacks and attacks stupidly.

 

 

Sounds very familiar.  Are you sure you didn't join a Multiplayer match by mistake?

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Haha. Well this is one of the reasons I don't fly MP anymore (but will join again when Coop is on for sure!).

 

Not sure if I recall it right, but I might have read somewhere here in the forums that the AI even could be "scared" when a sudden attack happens (and the AI is novice).

Could be that I had really bad luck in most of my missions, facing pros with my novice wingmen.

I had some Pe2 that went straight home when they got attacked by my squad. This was the only mission I had zero losses.

 

But it seems though that most of the AI fighter planes don't really mind fighting in a wrecked plane. I didn't have time to test it yet, but maybe I was facing too often veteran pilots that have some kind of SS fighting attitude of never ever quitting.

 

 

Just asking, I am not sure of the answer myself but... I do not find the VVS planes to be the classic turn fighters that they were in IL2: Original.  The 1C performance sheet posted elsewhere on this forum says as much.  The LaGG-3 and Yak-3 are the best and yet still compare unfavorably to all of the 109 variants.  So is it really all that unrealistic for the German AI to get into a circle fight, unless they are 190's?

 

 

 

Well, turning with russian fighters is not a bad idea per se, as long as you stay rather fast. I can turn with them in a F4 pretty good most of the time. BnZ is just way more safe, and I think in RL I'd think twice if I went into a slow turn fight. In the "game" however, both work pretty ok. The AI though seem to favor the russian planes fighting style me thinks. 

The thing that is annoying though, is that often after a few minutes, you have 4 planes circling like in a nascar game and nobody stops until the enemy is crushed to pieces. Heavy smoking or not.

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I've had a different experience flying my last few E109E-7 Jabo missions in PWCG. The escort run off, engage, and get shot down by whatever they go after, but the enemy have a different tactic. They engage me and my chums with varying degrees of success, but when I disengage they change tactics. For the last few missions I've been heading home only to discover a Yak or I-16 creeping up behind me until they are right on my six. But whatever I do, fly straight and level or attempt to fight them, the NEVER OPEN FIRE. Just sit there like a faithful puppy dog all the way home until I can drag them over some friendly AAA when they obligingly get shot down. Weird.

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Just asking, I am not sure of the answer myself but... I do not find the VVS planes to be the classic turn fighters that they were in IL2: Original.  The 1C performance sheet posted elsewhere on this forum says as much.  The LaGG-3 and Yak-3 are the best and yet still compare unfavorably to all of the 109 variants.  So is it really all that unrealistic for the German AI to get into a circle fight, unless they are 190's?

It's not a matter of Simulator plane performance to me, more of a historical thing. Now I know that low turn fighting did happen on the Eastern front, but more experienced German fighter wings of the period were known to avoid it as much as possible.

 

Whereas on the Russian side, their fighters were stretched thin early war escorting low and strafing ground targets, so the AI in a Russian planes makes a little more sense.

 

Sounds very familiar.  Are you sure you didn't join a Multiplayer match by mistake?

:lol:  :salute:

Edited by 71st_AH_Scojo

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Yeah I think the AI needs some kind of "want to survive" behavior implemented as well as a "there's also success in not being shot down" behavior.

Ok knowing when the enemy is too strong and then trying to get away. Say when you are in a 3:1 disadvantage, don't try to kill everyone but try to save your live at all costs.

That alone would help a lot.

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The AI problem is that B&Z fighting requires much more virtual brain power than  "turn hard until the other guy is in your sights".  AI flown B&Z planes are at a real disadvantage because of this.  This has been true since I have been flying sims (RB1).  

 

IMHO BoX AI is much better than other AI that I have seen.  Just not there yet.  I would not go the "overhaul the AI" route.  Instead, make incremental improvements by adding more decision trees.  Improve performance by looking into optimizing the pruning of the decision trees.  Keep the code well organized.  if it's not, take the time to do so before making more changes.  Relatively small changes over time eventually net big results.

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Hey Pat!

 

what you said makes sense. I hope 777 will make those changes for BoK or even earlier.

 

- BTW, is it true, that the setting of odds for novice, normal or veteran pilots is for the ENEMY and not you OWN MEN? So odds of 100% veteran is that every plane you

face is a veteran? And not every pilot you fly with is a veteran?

Since the tool tip isn't clear.

 

- And is it true that the higher rank a pilot is the better his AI is? Major is better than Lieutenant?

 

- Is there a way of starting a mission with parking breaks turned off?

 

Thanks and keep up the good work!

Edited by JG4_Sputnik
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I've had a different experience flying my last few E109E-7 Jabo missions in PWCG. The escort run off, engage, and get shot down by whatever they go after, but the enemy have a different tactic. They engage me and my chums with varying degrees of success, but when I disengage they change tactics. For the last few missions I've been heading home only to discover a Yak or I-16 creeping up behind me until they are right on my six. But whatever I do, fly straight and level or attempt to fight them, the NEVER OPEN FIRE. Just sit there like a faithful puppy dog all the way home until I can drag them over some friendly AAA when they obligingly get shot down. Weird.

 

That is very odd... I have never seen that from either side.   Perhaps the 'RTB if ammo is expended" instruction is not there?   Alternately, there is a 'Novice AI misidentifies enemy as Formation Leader" instruction. ;)

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Hey Pat!

 

what you said makes sense. I hope 777 will make those changes for BoK or even earlier.

 

- BTW, is it true, that the setting of odds for novice, normal or veteran pilots is for the ENEMY and not you OWN MEN? So odds of 100% veteran is that every plane you

face is a veteran? And not every pilot you fly with is a veteran?

Since the tool tip isn't clear.

 

- And is it true that the higher rank a pilot is the better his AI is? Major is better than Lieutenant?

 

- Is there a way of starting a mission with parking breaks turned off?

 

Thanks and keep up the good work!

 

OT but I assume you are talking PWCG settings:

1. The odds affect both friendly and enemy flights - but not YOUR flight.  Your pilots each have a skill level.  That skill level improves over time if you keep them alive.  The skill level of your AI squadron mates in the mission is exactly what they are in PWCG.

 

2. AI skill level for generated pilots is based on several factors, including config settings, aircraft type, squadron skill level, and rank.  I do give higher ranking generated AI pilots higher skill levels, with some degree of randomization.

 

3. No, because you would crash into the plane in front of you :).  There are intricacies that I am far from figuring out, including how to get a flight of AI planes to taxi out and take off.  I start the flight on the runway.

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Thanks for your answers!
Of course I meant "start a mission from parking slot with engine turned off" rather than "parking breaks off". Sorry about that ;)
 

Wow, it seems there's much more under the hood of PWCG than it is obvious on first glance. Thanks so much for creating this, will send you a token of my appreciation.

Cheers!
 

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I was being chased by an Ai 109 in my smoking la5. He stuck with me the whole way, only leaving when my engine stopped.

 

I was expecting him to strafe me, but he didn`t.

Edited by seafireliv

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I was being chased by an Ai 109 in my smoking la5. He stuck with me the whole way, only leaving when my engine stopped.

 

I was expecting him to strafe me, but he didn`t.

 

The AI knows when you are done.  If you landed earlier with your engine still ticking it probably would have strafed you.

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The AI knows when you are done.  If you landed earlier with your engine still ticking it probably would have strafed you.

Thought so. That bothered me, I could see how he just quit instantly as my engine quit.

 

He should`ve still kept buzzing me a bit even after my engine had stopped that would make him look more Human. I don`t instantly quit from a stopped aircraft unless I think there are more enemies around.

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The old tyring AI, this discussion is so old and still actual, after so much time no real change was made it seems.

 

In my opinion this is the biggest negative point besides the low view/render range, i dont care anymore about bias an s..t, its just frustrating to see what the SP crowd gets, how can anyone defend the AI in BoX i dont get it, the AI is just bad no matter how you flip it.

 

Its just sad that so few SP guys are around in the forum and are so quiet about this topic, we pay the same money but what we get is just a good MP Dogfighter hybrid between game and sim without any SP content, just stupid AI that is only able to aim precisely and turn like hell, maybe my standards are to high but if the AI is even worse then the AI from IL2 1946, then there is something off in my opinion.

 

If Kuban gives us some SP content but with the same stupid AI, i will turn away from BoX like i said many times, this is my last investment into this game if the AI gets no change to the better, i want resources in the AI department and i waited years now patiently but what we got are some minor tweaks in control surface deflection rates on the AI, thats all but many think we dont deserve more because MP is the only real way to enjoy games like BoX.

 

Things like coop, which is kind of mp, are still not there and if you think after Kuban everything will be good, you better wake up and look at how long this game is being developed now and how few the SP community got, just a good looking game with a lot of planes and some physics.

 

I know people will bashing me and say "but look how good BoX is with such a little team, they brought us VR and so much planes now and maps its just awesome" and i agree with that but the most important thing for me is a good SP experience and in this disciplin BoX sucks hard, there is not much to enjoy because the AI will destroy every good moment in this game for me.

 

I respect what the devs have made with there resources but in my opinion they got the wrong priority which is clear on the MP side to me, of course i dont know much about game development but thats because im just a consumer and dont really see all the details but i know what i, as a player, want to see and if this is nothing that gets any priority, i will stop enjoying.

 

So thank you devs for this game but pls shift your priority a bit so that i, and i think most of the BoX owners, can have faith again that we get a good SP and MP experience, pls take it as an opinion from a SP guy and not as an insult or hating, im just tired of BoX right now in its current state, its so unfunny in SP for me.

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@Ishtaru - you got some valid observations, just no need to lose the temper about it.

 

I like MP and SP in light sims and I must agree, AI is lacking a bit in ROF and BOX.  It is not that bad as some say, it is just not as good as the rest of this product so it sticks out.

 

But in my oppinion, it is not because Devs don't care about SP AI. Quite the opposite, from what I know, their idea was to make the next big thing in sims AI. 

The AI that actually fly those planes the same way humans do using same control surfaces instead of 'going on rails'. This in theory gives situations that AI can also make mistakes, stall and spin, fly in a unpredictable way etc...

 

Unfortunately in practice those things are rare and AI is very demanding on CPU and predictable leading to limited and 'empty' SP experience in ROF.

But you can't say you do not see big improvements in that regard in BOS!!!

It is night and day already between the two games in terms how much action in air and ground is going on.

 

Maybe machines were not yet ready for such AI, maybe it was too ambitious for the team size back in the day, but I see some improvements since ROF and hope that they can keep improving in small increments adding more and more defensive maneuvers and more decision randomization, similar to what Pat suggested. 

 

Personally looking forward to the coop mode I plan to mix with Pat's generator, but also to the career mode that will for sure be 'livelier' then ROF's.

In my book, that is caring for SP crowd, but you're entitled to your view of course.

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@Ishtaru - I feel your pain. ;)

 

As an SP only type (99%) I share some of your frustrations.  I do, however, believe that the SP game has improved with the arrival of scripted campaigns. I was never a great fan of these in IL-2 46 - too many air starts - but Juri's "Ivan's War" is excellent SP,  and by all accounts the other campaigns out there are also well made.

 

The only AI behaviour I observed in that which made my eyebrows twitch was, on a couple of occasions, badly damaged aircraft behaving extremely aggressively, as per the OP's complaint, and the nav lights on for takeoff and landing nonsense. Other than that, the AI attacked air and ground targets,  escorted, fought and RTBed in a believable fashion. Rear gunners and AI pilots were neither snipers nor ineffective, the vodka was tasty.

 

I share Pat's view that chipping away at minor incremental improvements is still worthwhile. 

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Excuse my may be to harsh words, it comes from my deep love with this genre and i really like BoX it is just the frustration with the AI that kills this game for me after so long, i dont know how the AI in RoF is, i never played it but i see no big AI change since the beginning of BoX, sure the AI learned some skills like attacking ground targets and bombers not acting like fighters anymore, also the ridicules flapping around at close range and things like that are softened but the main problem is still the same, lack of any reasonable actions in an air to air engagement.

 

The perfect situational awareness of the AI is also a big problem and the maneuvers looks allways the same no matter if its an I-16 or a FW190, turn turn turn like no tumorrow, it gets old fast and destroys my enjoyment and this leads to such emotions and i feel sorry for the devs for saying this because it feels like being unthankful, they do a good job but i really wish me the best possible AI for this great game, it deserves it big time, peace. :)

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Well last update had some good and needed AI changes, and quite a few SP guys liked it, myself included.

 

Maybe this is the next change in line we need to ask the devs about.

 

We can't expect everything to get fixed in one patch, but the last fixes showed they listen, so we just need to keep talking and convince them to keep making these small changes as they go along.


Pat said it best, incremental improvements are the most realistic and the best route.

 

So lets all put our heads together and pick a specific AI problem to bring to light and convince the devs that the change is needed for one of the next patches.

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Like I said, AI is very predictable atm if you turn with it.

 

It is slightly better if you B&Z AI, then it gets a chance to get out of the single turn loop, so try to use AC that is not a turn fighter (means so that AI can out turn you instead, that way you won't stay in that turn and AI will change behavior a bit too).

 

But yeah, we can't expect ace B&Z here (would actually hurt you more if they were perfect at that considering AI deflection accuracy), but Devs need to add some random maneuvering and 'teach' AI some scissoring and yo yo's to make it a bit more random and interesting when they got a plane on their six.

 

Also there should be random awareness calculation to make AI sometimes ignore you simulating that he did not notice enemy in time...

 

All this can be done with time, and I believe some of it will, since we all want it, especially for SP and coops, but also any other MP server running some AI in it.

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So then what should be next on the priority list?

 

AI chasing back to base?

 

AI not RTB when at a disadvantage?

 

AI only turn fighting directly?

 

AI always perfectly spotting you?


Maybe a good way to go about it is define a list of action items on AI and then create a poll to see what people want to see most, then take the winner and submit it to the devs as the next desired AI fix when they can fit it into a patch

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Like I said, AI is very predictable atm if you turn with it.

 

It is slightly better if you B&Z AI, then it gets a chance to get out of the single turn loop, so try to use AC that is not a turn fighter (means so that AI can out turn you instead, that way you won't stay in that turn and AI will change behavior a bit too).

 

But yeah, we can't expect ace B&Z here (would actually hurt you more if they were perfect at that considering AI deflection accuracy), but Devs need to add some random maneuvering and 'teach' AI some scissoring and yo yo's to make it a bit more random and interesting when they got a plane on their six.

 

Also there should be random awareness calculation to make AI sometimes ignore you simulating that he did not notice enemy in time...

 

All this can be done with time, and I believe some of it will, since we all want it, especially for SP and coops, but also any other MP server running some AI in it.

 

I think that the (bold) is already there. I noticed it in my play through of Ivan's War, and I seem to remember Han stating somewhere recently that non ace AI will sometimes lose SA.  The frantic agitation they display when you get an an enemy AI in your sights is not there all the time, which is a definite improvement.  

 

Main thing for me would be that aircraft that have taken multiple hits or are leaking various substances should usually do their best to dive away and head home - and if there is an enemy close behind that they cannot shake, perhaps just bail out. I say usually, because some variation is always fun.

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