Developer Diary, Part 155 - Discussion

[GrendelsDad]

Most games that run on oculus or vive should run fine on pimax less hand controllers.

[FlyingNutcase]

Jason, How about labelling the team photo with names/usernames and their roles. it would be interesting to put a face to the different work roles. And happy birthday to ya. 

[chiliwili69]

 

 

BoX + VR + Spitfire = Heaven!

 

Yes! Spitfire is my favourite plane!

 

I have one floating in my ceiling  :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B48gEYiKwYegUVBVWmIwblVCeTA

 

 

Or a possible interm fix would be an option to display a small blue/red dot in place of the full label.

 

I was thinking exactly the same. Just a dot (ie pixel) when the rendered aircraft is smaller than a pixel. And no dot when the plane is at a distance that a human eye will not see it in the real world.

[Wolferl_1791]

I am beyond excited for the future of this sim and have been a supporter since BoS pre-release.  My main concern with VR is identifying planes.  I have only really played WarThunder in VR, but I cannot identify planes at any distance beyond 500m or so.  Luckily for VR players, WT has friendly markers that appear when you get within 900m.  Using this you can tell if a plane is friendly or not and avoid any frags.  

 

Unless there is a way to enable such a feature for VR players and convince the two/three main MP servers to adopt them, it seems that my VR headsets will be limited to SP/COOP campaigns, bombing/ground attack runs, or possibly with group play if you have good communication.  I will say however, that I much much prefer VR due to the 1:1 headtracking and presence you get when flying low or in formation.  I am a much better pilot in VR IF I can identify friend from foe.

 

This...

I've complained on the WT forums about the lack of zoom in VR. The labels make it playable... barely. 

 

From my experience in IL-2, it has a more realistic zoom level. Basically, fully zoomed in, on a 24 inch display sitting at a comfortable distance, it offers exactly the same FoV on the gunsight as what you get in VR (with no zoom). So the size of the objects is not an issue. But on the monitor you have twice the pixel density of a VR headset. 

 

So to get the plane to render with the same number of pixels, we need a 2x zoom. The Dev Answers have said that they will not implement zoom because of technical issues. I think that's a mistake. DCS uses zoom which flattens the image, with a ton of distorsion. It also plummets the framerate, as it increases LoD. But still good enough to read small dials and ID far targets for a couple of seconds.

 

So I hope the devs reconsider it. We're years away from HMD 2.0 so... 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Always good news !

[Lusekofte]

will come behind the next IL-2 variant.

 

And my patience for red side bombers coming is wearing thin, I am not complaining. But we need a IL 2 more than another fighter 

Edited April 8, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Asgar]

ehm...you have two IL-2s

[JtD]

Compared to the near 40000 built that's close to nothing.  

Edited April 8, 2017 by JtD

[Tomsk]

So to get the plane to render with the same number of pixels, we need a 2x zoom. The Dev Answers have said that they will not implement zoom because of technical issues. I think that's a mistake. DCS uses zoom which flattens the image, with a ton of distorsion. It also plummets the framerate, as it increases LoD. But still good enough to read small dials and ID far targets for a couple of seconds.

 

Yeah I think the zoom in DCS works pretty well .. yes it introduces some distortion, but only really round the edges (why they don't just black those out I don't know). The zoom is perfectly good enough for reading small dials or IDing targets, it's not perfect but it's definitely better than none.

[LukeFF]

Jason, How about labelling the team photo with names/usernames and their roles. it would be interesting to put a face to the different work roles. And happy birthday to ya. 

 

Don't know all of them, but this will help:

• VikS (mission design, research) is in the blue long-sleeve shirt, front row.
• Petrovich (flight modeling) is to VikS's left.
• Behind Petrovich is Han (giant guy with yellow ID badge  ). 

[dburne]

Yeah I think the zoom in DCS works pretty well .. yes it introduces some distortion, but only really round the edges (why they don't just black those out I don't know). The zoom is perfectly good enough for reading small dials or IDing targets, it's not perfect but it's definitely better than none.

 

Agreed for what it does it is not bad.

I have VR Zoom  assigned to my Warthog throttle - two buttons. One for a momentary press to zoom, let go and back to normal. The other to a two way toggle switch - so I can switch it on and it remain on then switch it off when done.

 

But I find so far in dogfighting it is not often I use it. Comes in handy when trying to get bearings and need to be able to see further out better due to the lower resolution when looking further out.

[Jason_Williams]

 

Don't know all of them, but this will help:

• VikS (mission design, research) is in the blue long-sleeve shirt, front row.
• Petrovich (flight modeling) is to VikS's left.
• Behind Petrovich is Han (giant guy with yellow ID badge  ). 

 

 

LOL Petrovich is not in the picture this time Luke. He is not in Moscow at the moment. There are several guys who are not in the picture because they work remotely.

 

Jason

[Jason_Williams]

For those worried about Zoom. I had the guys implement zoom in VR before I left Moscow. Its a 2x zoom very close to the regular zoom on a monitor. It makes close objects like canopy frames look doubled up at times etc. but it works fine. The stereoscopic 3D takes some getting used to. It's just like your real eyes so at certain times depending on what you are focused on you'll see some double vision etc. of objects out of focus.

 

Jason 

[Urra]

For those worried about Zoom. I had the guys implement zoom in VR before I left Moscow. Its a 2x zoom very close to the regular zoom on a monitor. It makes close objects like canopy frames look doubled up at times etc. but it works fine. The stereoscopic 3D takes some getting used to. It's just like your real eyes so at certain times depending on what you are focused on you'll see some double vision etc. of objects out of focus.

 

Jason

Appreciate this very much. Will keep these notes in mind.

[T_oll]

The machine I was flying on had a Geforce 770 video card. Nor did it have a high-end processor. There were 16 planes in the mission and 4 were 110's with gunners and when you activate the HUD you have a pretty big hit on performance. At no time were frames too low to fly comfortably. Any machine above or slightly above mid-range will do fine.

 

 

That's impressive!

 

I agree with everything you say about VR. It has it's limitations, and in a few years when resolution and optics are better, it will be awesome.

That said, I think VR has more pros than cons even with the VR hardware we've got today. The immersion is incredible!

 

And as mentioned in another reply. The Rift headstrap "delta" need to be lower on the back of the head. The vertical position of the goggles is very important when it comes to visual clarity. Just a few milimeter up or down will distort the view through the optics. So a secure and comfortable headstrap is paramount.

 

Looking forward to try VR in IL-2!!

[dburne]

For those worried about Zoom. I had the guys implement zoom in VR before I left Moscow. Its a 2x zoom very close to the regular zoom on a monitor. It makes close objects like canopy frames look doubled up at times etc. but it works fine. The stereoscopic 3D takes some getting used to. It's just like your real eyes so at certain times depending on what you are focused on you'll see some double vision etc. of objects out of focus.

 

Jason 

 

 

 

Great news!

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Hi Han,

 

I'm bit surprised to don't see BK 3.7 for Hs-129 as it was a very common loadout.

Without this weapon, the Henschel will be useless against T-34 and heavy tanks such as KV-1.

 

It is sad to modelise such an iconic plane without giving him ability to destroy all the tanks...

[OrLoK]

Ive seen a few posts alluding to the fact that gunner positions may be problematic in VR.

 

It it a clipping issue? something else?

 

Will gunner positions be available in this  iteration of VR? 

 

L

[csThor]

Hi Han,

 

I'm bit surprised to don't see BK 3.7 for Hs-129 as it was a very common loadout.

Without this weapon, the Henschel will be useless against T-34 and heavy tanks such as KV-1.

 

It is sad to modelise such an iconic plane without giving him ability to destroy all the tanks...

Actually it was never used operationally on the Hs 129. The entire test program for the 37mm gun installation was cancelled after just a few flights because the gun installation degraded the performance and flight stability to the point of being dangerous. The Mk 101 and Mk 103 had no trouble with penetrating a T-34 (if properly employed, that is) and I am not aware of the KV-1 being mentioned as "problematic", either.

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Actually it was never used operationally on the Hs 129. The entire test program for the 37mm gun installation was cancelled after just a few flights because the gun installation degraded the performance and flight stability to the point of being dangerous. The Mk 101 and Mk 103 had no trouble with penetrating a T-34 (if properly employed, that is) and I am not aware of the KV-1 being mentioned as "problematic", either.

I think you speak about the Bk3.7 on the 110G2 and not on the Henschel...

I never heard Bk3.7 made the Hs129 being dangerous but i heard it speaking about the Zerstorer.

 

 

All the litterature online says Mk101 and 303 were fine for light tanks but were unable to destroy medium and heavy tanks...

[csThor]

I think you speak about the Bk3.7 on the 110G2 and not on the Henschel...

I never heard Bk3.7 made the Hs129 being dangerous but i heard it speaking about the Zerstorer.

 

 

All the litterature online says Mk101 and 303 were fine for light tanks but were unable to destroy medium and heavy tanks...

Nope, source is "Hs 129 -Panzerjäger!" by Martin Pegg (THE source on the Hs 129). Besides I was part of Team Daidalos back when they built the Hs for 1946 and did extensive research on what loadouts were actually used and which ones weren't. And that most online "articles" aren't worth to be clicked on should surprise noone. Edited April 9, 2017 by csThor

[Gunsmith86]

I think you speak about the Bk3.7 on the 110G2 and not on the Henschel...

I never heard Bk3.7 made the Hs129 being dangerous but i heard it speaking about the Zerstorer.

 

 

All the litterature online says Mk101 and 303 were fine for light tanks but were unable to destroy medium and heavy tanks...

Captured KV-1 used for MK 101 30mm cannon firing tests at the Kummersdorf Proving Ground. The MK 101 and 103 from the picture could destroy a KV-1 if needed

 

csThor is right.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Gunsmith86

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Nope, source is "Hs 129 -Panzerjäger!" by Martin Pegg (THE source on the Hs 129). Besides I was part of Team Daidalos back when they built the Hs for 1946 and did extensive research on what loadouts were actually used and which ones weren't. And that most online "articles" aren't worth to be clicked on should surprise noone.

Explain me why the Bk3.7 was available in Il2 1946 then...

It's not only litterature, there is a lot of pictures showing that loadout

The Bk3.7 led ultimately to the Bk7.5 as it turned unefficient against new soviet tanks so you can't say they didn't use Bk3.7 imho

 

 

 

The MK 101 and 103 from the picture could destroy a KV-1 if needed

 

csThor is right.

By needed, how many shells do you mean

There is theory and reality...

Edited April 9, 2017 by 64sTomio

[Gunsmith86]

All the pictures of the HS 129 with BK 3,7cm were from the short tests in germany and BK 7,5cm was a separate development which doesn´t share anything with the BK 3,7 cm.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Gunsmith86

[csThor]

Explain me why the Bk3.7 was available in Il2 1946 then ...

Because Maddox Games had added it to the original game (based on faulty sources) and Daidalos could not remove existing loadouts to preserve backward compatibility with older missions.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Explain me why the Bk3.7 was available in Il2 1946 then...

It's not only litterature, there is a lot of pictures showing that loadout

The Bk3.7 led ultimately to the Bk7.5 as it turned unefficient against new soviet tanks so you can't say they didn't use Bk3.7 imho

 

 

 

By needed, how many shells do you mean

There is theory and reality...

 

Oleg's team weren't always the best at doing the fine research required to suss things out. They also did a lot of that research over 15 years ago and much more has come to light (dug up from obscure archives, etc.) on all things World War II since then. When Team Daidalos made the Hs129B-2 flyable they had to include the other loadouts, a-historical as they were, or run into some pretty big compatibility bugs. Those bugs caused horrendous problems when the loadouts were completely changed on the IAR80/81 in a patch from Oleg's team. It was even a bit dicey when they fixed the Ki-61 in the first patch after Pacific Fighters was released where they had all of the wrong gun types there.

Because Maddox Games had added it to the original game (based on faulty sources) and Daidalos could not remove existing loadouts to preserve backward compatibility with older missions.

 

That.

 

Listen to Thor on this folks. He knows the Hs129 history pretty well.

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Ok my mistake (based on real pictures lol)

 

however they installed Bk7.5 on the last version because of Mk101/103 being uneffecient against new tanks no ?

[Gunsmith86]

They needed ways to save tungsten carbide steel which was used for the special ammo of the 3cm cannon because this material was on short supply by than. So they were forced to use a bigger cannon that is able to penetrate as much armour with normal ammunition.

[Jason_Williams]

That's impressive!

 

I agree with everything you say about VR. It has it's limitations, and in a few years when resolution and optics are better, it will be awesome.

That said, I think VR has more pros than cons even with the VR hardware we've got today. The immersion is incredible!

 

And as mentioned in another reply. The Rift headstrap "delta" need to be lower on the back of the head. The vertical position of the goggles is very important when it comes to visual clarity. Just a few milimeter up or down will distort the view through the optics. So a secure and comfortable headstrap is paramount.

 

Looking forward to try VR in IL-2!!

 

I know how to wear the goggles correctly. I had them strapped a certain way so I could see the keyboard and listen to to people talking to me.

 

Jason

[LukeFF]

LOL Petrovich is not in the picture this time Luke. He is not in Moscow at the moment. There are several guys who are not in the picture because they work remotely.

 

Jason

 

Whoops! 

[=GM=GJL2]

can we say that this update will bring us another performance gain if we dont use any VR device?

[T_oll]

I know how to wear the goggles correctly. I had them strapped a certain way so I could see the keyboard and listen to to people talking to me.

 

 

Sure...sure...

 

Seriously though, when I tried the Rift the first time it was adjusted for a much smaller head. The goggles kept falling down and I thought "boy they weren't kidding about fuzzy view!" and then the owner told me to adjust the vertical position and lock it with the strap. Huge difference.

 

BTW, tomorrow is "next week"... Just sayin';)

[Urra]

Sure...sure...

 

Seriously though, when I tried the Rift the first time it was adjusted for a much smaller head. The goggles kept falling down and I thought "boy they weren't kidding about fuzzy view!" and then the owner told me to adjust the vertical position and lock it with the strap. Huge difference.

 

BTW, tomorrow is "next week"... Just sayin';)

So tomorrow right? Edited April 9, 2017 by TunaEatsLion

[HagarTheHorrible]

So tomorrow right?

Bloomin eck, that'd be good.

 

First they spoil my Friday by putting out news updates on a Thursday and now it appears next week might start on a Monday rather than a Friday. Better go and check my lottery ticket.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Actually it was never used operationally on the Hs 129. The entire test program for the 37mm gun installation was cancelled after just a few flights because the gun installation degraded the performance and flight stability to the point of being dangerous. The Mk 101 and Mk 103 had no trouble with penetrating a T-34 (if properly employed, that is) and I am not aware of the KV-1 being mentioned as "problematic", either.

 

Yep, the 30mm cannon with the tungsten core ammo could penetrate around 90mm of flat armor at 300 meters, enough for KV-1's side if the approach is rather straight towards the tank.

 

 

By needed, how many shells do you mean

There is theory and reality...

 

While a 30mm round does less damage than bigger rounds, it gets compensated by the higher rate of fire. The important thing is to penetrate, once that is achieved, then the type of tank is not very important, when hit in the vulnerable spots like crew, ammo, fuel, engine, transmission most of the tanks get affected the same. Unless it has a special system like wet storage for ammunition in the late Shermans.

Edited April 9, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[dburne]

Sure...sure...

 

Seriously though, when I tried the Rift the first time it was adjusted for a much smaller head. The goggles kept falling down and I thought "boy they weren't kidding about fuzzy view!" and then the owner told me to adjust the vertical position and lock it with the strap. Huge difference.

 

BTW, tomorrow is "next week"... Just sayin';)

 

Lol the Rift definitely has a "sweet spot" for the best viewing, one wants to have the headset adjusted for this certainly.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I really hope 30mm can kill tanks otherwise this plane will be useless.

[216th_Jordan]

I really hope 30mm can kill tanks otherwise this plane will be useless.

It will be more of a tankkiller than the VYa-23 I guess.

[kissklas]

For those worried about Zoom. I had the guys implement zoom in VR before I left Moscow. Its a 2x zoom very close to the regular zoom on a monitor. It makes close objects like canopy frames look doubled up at times etc. but it works fine. The stereoscopic 3D takes some getting used to. It's just like your real eyes so at certain times depending on what you are focused on you'll see some double vision etc. of objects out of focus.

 

Jason

That's great! Glad you chose to implement that:) Anyways, you would expect that from a binocular which is slightly out of setting too I guess. Matching up the IPD perfectly is hard, especially with two Tele lenses glued to the face XD

[Cybermat47]

Captured KV-1 used for MK 101 30mm cannon firing tests at the Kummersdorf Proving Ground. The MK 101 and 103 from the picture could destroy a KV-1 if needed

 

csThor is right.

Damn, that's impressive.

 

Can't wait to try her out against KV-2s and Iosef Stalin tanks