Developer Diary, Part 153 - Discussion

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

I have been thinking a lot about the wobbling issue. It is very frustrating to fly and just when you are trying to fire at a bandit see your gunsights bouncing all over the screen like a ping-pong ball at the slightest correction when zooming in and therefore firing in a spray and pray fashion  .

 

I saw the poll and about 3/4 of the Sim users who voted think that there is too much wobbling. I understand that flying a plane cannot be as smooth as as driving a car but it is too much if you cannot tame the beast. When I first bought the sim , back before the BOM, I tried, quit and went back to the old IL2 because of the wobbling. This is my second try and this time I won't quit so I really hope that the revision of the FM makes the Sim able-to-fly for user as me.   

Just a little tiny point more, I am flying with other pilots from different squadrons and some of them say that they do not have that problem when firing at all. They use the Warthog joystick. I am using a Saitek X52Pro and I also know people using the Thrustmaster have the same problem. One of the pilots is convinced that it is related to the model of joystick you use. But if so, why don't I have the problem with the old Il2 or with other sims? However, I had it in ROF too. Well, I just don't know and I am confused about its cause. I just wanted to say that in case it hits the nail somehow. 

 

Thanks for revising the FM of every single plane, it is a titanic effort no doubt but if it works, it will make the best sim in the market.  

Edited March 26, 2017 by -=PHX=-Spartan-

[smink1701]

+1000. I think it is something inherent in both ROF and BOM and I'm sure the developers are aware of it… But probably no easy fix. I have a thrustmaster now and a Microsoft sidewinder previously and I've only had this bouncing issue with these sims. When people post combat vids you can see the bouncing is pretty obvious. When you look at historical gun camera footage it looks way smoother and more fluid. I hope something can be done

[MadisonV44]

A good news for me, lets cross fingers it is the end of the wobbling era ... 

Just like if the FM have been adapted, based on WWI canvas plane characteristics much more sensible to turbulences.

[DLHBorderliner71]

All heroes are heroes. On this site or on the other site.

 

Another "R.I.P." for that hero from germany!

[novicebutdeadly]

Good evening Gents (and ladies of course),

Firstly RIP to a hero who put his life on the line so that his country may live.


In regards to the 109 news, I'm all for historical accuracy, but I wonder how they have calculated the new roll rates, will it be by German records (who were used to flying the aircraft, and usually did sports etc to increase strength and endurance), or other records of pilots not used to the heavier controls (pilots evaluating captured aircraft).

Although as someone pointed out in a another thread, heavy stick forces at high speed are not necessarily a bad things, especially since the faster the go the higher the G force on the structure when rolling , as an aside from a bit of quick reading those that have flown the 109 and the P51 claim they had comparable stick forces.

 

[Retnek]

"While we correct aerodynamic parameters of one aircraft after another, we will be making additional changes - we'll tell you about each plane in detail."

 

Great news - please take your time, present your updates and THEN let's discuss details plane for plane.

[Wolferl_1791]

Then would it not be better to say something like ' setting joystick curves to 50% helps mitigate the issue' rather than saying it is 'because' of the stick settings?

What? Tact and diplomacy on the internet? Impossible!

 

 

Can't wait to see the results of this hard work. By the way, are we 2-3 days away from VR patch launch? Or....

[FTC_Riksen]

Two weeks

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

yes we understand that, but in the mean time this helps correct the issue du--mass

 

Wow, nice play on words there Mastiff. Are you always so affable? smh

[PicksKing]

Hey guys,

are there any specific plans for future Q&A teamspeak events? I enjoyed the last times.

[Dave]

In regards to the 109 news, I'm all for historical accuracy, but I wonder how they have calculated the new roll rates, will it be by German records (who were used to flying the aircraft, and usually did sports etc to increase strength and endurance), or other records of pilots not used to the heavier controls (pilots evaluating captured aircraft).

 

I don't have visibility of 1CGS' FM source, but I will make a comment with regard to the construction of such models in general and leave it to AnPetrovic to correct me regarding his exact design.

In physically-modelled simulations documents and records of output parameters such as roll rate are not used at all as input to the FM. The purpose such documents serve when you have built an aerodynamic model based on calculations of flow around a 3D structure is to aid in confirmation of the validity of your model.

 

That is to say, there is not some table where you have "roll_rate=X" which you copied from some report. That would be an output of the calculation not an input.

One way you generate that output would be to consider the entire aircraft surface as being made up of tiny patches or elements (finite element analysis) upon each of which you mathematically calculate the resultant forces of airflow many times for each combination of input parameters for the element (such as air density, flow velocity, angle of incidence ...) and then integrate those results over the entire surface. If the elements are small enough the result will be "close enough" to reality. You then stuff the results into multidimensional arrays (indexed on the input variables) so your computer doesn't have to perform the calculations at runtime. The values in the array are discrete so you use interpolation to generate approximations of the continuous values. The accuracy of the output depends, among many factors, on the number of input axes, the resolution of samples, the accuracy of the 3D model and the quality of the fluid mechanical model.

This may not be how BoX is done, but I suspect something at least similar to this approach.

The point I am trying to convey is that attempting to control or "tweak" the models accuracy using the output is at worst futile and at best a very time consuming process of trial and error. What they seem to be doing instead is trying to get the input parameters as accurately modelled as possible and they compare measured results with whatever historical documentation is available to see how close they are. Given the difficulty inherent in this process conflicting values within some tolerance must be taken with a bucket of salt.

So people shouldn't make a major case out of say a 1 degree per second roll rate discrepancy with some test report especially as the measurement accuracy of such reports possibly contain larger errors than the team's software model in some cases.

 

Edit: accidental double post

Edited March 30, 2017 by Dave

[Lusekofte]

[seafireliv]

While we were preparing this Dev Diary, sad news arrived - Soviet test pilot Stepan Anastasovich Mikoyan who fought in the battle of Stalingrad passed away in Moscow at age 95.

 

At least he lived a long life and I respect his part in helping the Allies in the war.

[EAF_51_FOX]

...When people first come to the forum the impression given is that people with a tester badge are actually members of the dev team; most of the testers give helpful information (if a little monosyllabic at times) and this mistaken identity matters not. But you clearly don't feel like tact and manners matters when you 'appear' to be an official representative.

 

I don't think you understood what I wrote, what language do you think I'm speaking?

 

 

Incidentally I consider the ability of so many nations to converse here, in English, to be pretty awesome on the part of those for who it isn't a first language. One's fluency in typing English is not a defining point of a persons character

Sadly I agree 100% at this.

Edited March 31, 2017 by EAF_51_FOX

[Habu]

 

 

When people first come to the forum the impression given is that people with a tester badge are actually members of the dev team; most of the testers give helpful information (if a little monosyllabic at times) and this mistaken identity matters not. But you clearly don't feel like tact and manners matters when you 'appear' to be an official representative.

No we are not member of the dev team and we are not an official representative. We are only beta tester. Nothing more than you, except that we test the beta version, and try to search any problems on the beta version. We have a work all the day like you, but not for 777. It's on our free time that we test. It's only some of the beta tester who have the tester badge. All the new one do not have any special badge.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

So thinking that calling someone a dumbass in whatever spelling you choose is reasonable and I'm off base? Interesting. I suppose it's a term of endearment? Name calling is also an allowable practice around here? You know, the beautiful thing about a douchebag is, they're easy to identify, and in this case, even easier to avoid. I will be invoking the mute feature...dooosh-bahg.

Edited April 1, 2017 by CG_Justin

[dburne]

. I will be invoking the mute feature...dooosh-bahg.

 

I have learned over the years just ignoring can be a very good thing.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

No we are not member of the dev team and we are not an official representative. We are only beta tester. Nothing more than you, except that we test the beta version, and try to search any problems on the beta version. We have a work all the day like you, but not for 777. It's on our free time that we test. It's only some of the beta tester who have the tester badge. All the new one do not have any special badge.

I'm a beta tester for Just Flight and Aeroplane Heaven and, I've yet to be so disrespectful as to call someone a dumbass for any reason. I also volunteer to paint in my families homes on my free time, I suppose this justifies calling them assholes? Get real. It's about decency and respect, something clearly lacking here. I'm done with this nonsense. Edited April 1, 2017 by CG_Justin

[Habu]

I'm a beta tester for Just Flight and Aeroplane Heaven and, I've yet to be so disrespectful as to call someone a dumbass for any reason. I also volunteer to paint in my families homes on my free time, I suppose this justifies calling them assholes? Get real. It's about decency and respect, something clearly lacking here. I'm done with this nonsense.

Read my post please, and what is quote in bold, i only give information about the tester status. So do not give me some words i don't have.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Read my post please, and what is quote in bold, i only give information about the tester status. So do not give me some words i don't have.

In your defense, English isn't your first language, but the way it was read to me (as a native English speaker) it seemed in defense of another person's disrespect. Please accept my humble apology.

Edited April 1, 2017 by CG_Justin

[SYN_Haashashin]

Guys, if you think someone is been disrespectful or rude to you just do not respond with the same and report it. We will take a look.

 

Testers/Mods are not 1CGS employes.

 

Haash

[Habu]

In your defense, English isn't your first language, but the way it was read to me (as a native English speaker) it seemed in defense of another person's disrespect. Please accept my humble apology.

Ok, no problem. My post was not to defend anyone. I just want to explain that tester are only beta tester,and are not 1cgs employee. I quote the entire sentence, but i answer only on what i put in bold. Sorry for the misunderstoond.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Ok, no problem. My post was not to defend anyone. I just want to explain that tester are only beta tester,and are not 1cgs employee. I quote the entire sentence, but i answer only on what i put in bold. Sorry for the misunderstoond.

No hard feelings at all my friend. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding as well. ~S

[Lusekofte]

Well Mastiff has been corrected by the man himself, (Jason) He is not to be taken too seriously in all his statement. This forum and its members is notorious getting easily offended and it just been a way of conduct in here. I do include myself in many incidents. 

In Mastiffs defence he have promoted this sim in many forums and I guess he have brought some players in here, however his way of communication have also made some dispute , like I have in the past.

I suggest we live and forget, in the interweb we should forget what is written yesterday, a lot of spontaneous frustration is going on all the time, and should not be taken serious

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

I apologize for any remarks that you may have taken out context, all has  been deleted, I will not contribute anything any longer..

 

 

youtube channel has been closed, also for those that feel so strongly about Aviation and that your opinion is gold, I apologize for trying to help alleviate your joystick input issue with the FM it was only to help.

 

but since helping around here is mute.....

 

 

I'm out...

meaning no help from me..

Edited April 2, 2017 by 71st_AH_Mastiff

[BraveSirRobin]

Not sure how I'll be able to sleep tonight.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Not sure how I'll be able to sleep tonight.

personal comments like this is why I don't bother.

 

and yes I can be as sensitive as you.

 

Maybe everyone needs to sign a official read the rules disclaimer again..

 

please feel free to familiarize yourself with this..

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

Edited April 2, 2017 by 71st_AH_Mastiff

[E69_geramos109]

With this change on bf109 is going to be added the correct prop caracteristics or are devs still loking for that data?

 

I want to ask also about the rate of fire of the 151 on the bf109. Currently we have the syncroniced version of the gun used in the fokewulf with 700 rounds per minute but the nose mounted gun had about 800 rpm.