Ridiculous 109 pitch rates

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

 

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/guest-bloggers/newly-restored-messerschmitt-bf109g-flies-test-pilot-shares-experience.html/2

 

"The stick forces used in pulling out of a fast dive remind that German pilots were naturally assumed to be strong. Pilots are advised not to use trim to compensate."

 

Yes I know - Not advised don't mean that they do not do it ..

[Irgendjemand]

Its not an exploit its a gamemechanic. Even if it wasnt possible to put the axis on one deviceaxis together with another It could still be used. After all you got the stick in the right hand. You still have the left hand with wich you can work the stabilizer axis synchronous. Just like you can with the trim axles on other planes.
So whats the point in arguing. There are more important things to worry about.
 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

People complaining about one 109 control mechanism being easier to handle then it was IRL, while to get the most out of the La5 IRL you had to adjust seven different handles accordingly - i wonder how that is represented in the game.

And people are moaning about so called "Luftwhiners"...ouh boy 

[ITAF_Rani]

Cut wings from Bf109 and develop it like a plane car....the sky must be only for VVS pilots....

 

Comoonnnnnnn...flappers vvs pilots. ...you have yak and La5 in stalinium...so don't complaint for such things..

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

there are 100-200 people playing online and just a tiny fraction seems to bother and think its a problem,

100-200 people?

 

Just WoL (one server) has 1,300 active players this month (each with active kill/death ratios)

 

many don't care as they don't understand how broken it is (i mean Stab trim does not seem to effect planes Max Critical AoA for Wings stall.

 

But IRL Adjust Stab trim alter wings Center of pressure and therefor AoA

[Blutaar]

100-200 people?

 

Just WoL (one server) has 1,300 active players this month (each with active kill/death ratios)

Sry, didnt know that, thanks for pointing out.

 

Maybe its because we have to weak muscles in our virtual arms and cant reach your max critical aoa even with stabi usage i dont know.

High chance of me misunderstanding what you mean, sry if its the case.

[unreasonable]

 

many don't care as they don't understand how broken it is (i mean Stab trim does not seem to effect planes Max Critical AoA for Wings stall.

 

But IRL Adjust Stab trim alter wings Center of pressure and therefor AoA

 

Adjusting the stab alters the AoA at which you are flying, and so might push you over the critical AoA if you adjust too rapidly while pulling the stick back - but it does not alter the critical AoA of the wing, which is a limit and a function of the airfoil used and wing design.

 

The wing does not "care" if you reach critical AoA because you have used the elevator or adjusted the stab - or both together.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

OK A Wing like these normal ones and not flying Wings DO NOT FLY ALONE!!

They fly as a balance between main wing providing lift up with the Tail plain being an inverted Aerofoil Providing Lift Forces actually DOWN (inverted to wings main flow)
This counters the nose heavy CG planes require for pitch authority and this is how a plane flies "balanced" (FLYING WINGS EXCLUDED)


The Angle of the tail plane (known as incidence angle plays a CRITICAL roll in the location of the centre of pressure also centre of gravity of the primary wing
This is very basic knowledge needed when building even my Radio control planes.
INCIDENCE ANGLES ARE CRITICAL

There are many examples of this and information about it.


So if you set your stab trim to max up (alter the incidence) what actually happens is you alter the WINGS CRITICAL AoA From 19.9* to about 22*
If you lower the stab trim full nose down then you will get an accelerated stall from Crit AoA around 17.5*

(caps are not yelling just making sure points are not missed.)

Edited March 16, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I know it's not worth answering but unreasonable is right. The wing's ciritcal AoA is indipendent form the stabilizer and is not effected by changing stab settings.

 

As an advice for the future, copy pasting pictures from Wikipedia is not really going to help your point becoming more cerdible when they're clearly about a different matter.

[unreasonable]

5tuka, I know he will not believe me, maybe he will believe the FAA. Actually I do not care what he believes, more that other tender minds may be misled.....

 

"The stalling speed of a particular aircraft is not a fixed value for all flight situations, but a given aircraft always stalls at the same AOA regardless of airspeed, weight, load factor, or density altitude. Each aircraft has a particular AOA where the airflow separates from the upper surface of the wing and the stall occurs. This critical AOA varies from approximately 16° to 20° depending on the aircraft’s design. But each aircraft has only one specific AOA where the stall occurs."

 

Source  https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/07_phak_ch5.pdf     page 5-25

 

An airplane can stall at any speed. Angle of attack is a better parameter to use to avoid a stall. For a given configuration, the airplane always stalls at the same AOA, referred to as the critical AOA. This critical AOA does not change with: • Weight • Bank angle • Temperature • Density altitude • Center of gravity

 

ibid 5-27

[ACG_pezman]

Why it was not possible to use stick and trim wheel at the same time exactly?

 

The response is as "immediate" as with separate axis or buttons.

 

Stab trim was on a wheel in real life and is so in the game. It would be the worst approach to spend resources to make it less realistic and change it to buttons.

 

Speaking of mapping stab trim and elevator on the same axis - I wonder why is something that makes your plane worse called an expoit. It just takes away your ability to trim plane. Makes your top speed worse, accuracy worse, high speed turns worse etc. But if people really want that devs spend resources on that pseudo-problem, then it should be done by disabling the possibility to map different controls on same axis, rather than forcing it on buttons.

 

I'd just like to point out that for fun I bound the stabilizer and pitch to the same axis.  Quickly realized that I lost the ability to trim my aircraft which was a pain.  So I made a toggle.  I used the software for my joystick to make one of the buttons the "Shift" key and made my stabilizer axis "RShift+Y_Axis" which worked okay.  I could trim and use the two axis' together, all I had to do was bind my pitch axis to "Y_axis" and "RShift+Y_axis" so it would respond to both bindings. 

 

Trimming was a challenge still, but feasible.  So I just wanted to show a way around the argument that it craps you up if you do it.  I called it "Regular Mode" and "Dogfight Mode." 

 

It's not pseudo problem, I tested it you can fly with it just fine - trim 109 just fine (use stab on separate axis plus stab together with pitch). There are no top speed issue, turns can be tighter. I agree it should be on axie, I wonder why VVS trims are not...

 

Yes, I agree.  VVS trim commands are also on wheels that roll, much like the 109's stabilizer axis.  Yet we cannot bind our trim in VVS aircraft to an axis and the 190 used buttons for it's trim IRL, so why are the VVS aircraft left out?  Would it make them too good?  Then that would be tantamount to admitting that the stabilizer on an axis does provide an advantage. 

 

However my main issue with this is the fact that in aircraft like the MiG-3 I often get crushed attempting to adjust my flaps limiter if I'm in a fight because I have to constantly break my focus to check the position of it so I can get the maximum performance from my aircraft.  This distraction is something I would like to see 109 and 202 pilots have to deal with.  It would change the fight and make it harder for 202's and 109's to turn and burn on the deck with VVS aircraft.  Everyone here will already admit that LW aircraft shouldn't do it, but they do, and that stab exploit makes it easier for them to compete an arena that they shouldn't even be competing in.

 

Just my two cents.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I'd just like to point out that for fun I bound the stabilizer and pitch to the same axis. Quickly realized that I lost the ability to trim my aircraft which was a pain. So I made a toggle. I used the software for my joystick to make one of the buttons the "Shift" key and made my stabilizer axis "RShift+Y_Axis" which worked okay. I could trim and use the two axis' together, all I had to do was bind my pitch axis to "Y_axis" and "RShift+Y_axis" so it would respond to both bindings.

 

Trimming was a challenge still, but feasible. So I just wanted to show a way around the argument that it craps you up if you do it. I called it "Regular Mode" and "Dogfight Mode."

 

 

Yes, I agree. VVS trim commands are also on wheels that roll, much like the 109's stabilizer axis. Yet we cannot bind our trim in VVS aircraft to an axis and the 190 used buttons for it's trim IRL, so why are the VVS aircraft left out? Would it make them too good? Then that would be tantamount to admitting that the stabilizer on an axis does provide an advantage.

 

However my main issue with this is the fact that in aircraft like the MiG-3 I often get crushed attempting to adjust my flaps limiter if I'm in a fight because I have to constantly break my focus to check the position of it so I can get the maximum performance from my aircraft. This distraction is something I would like to see 109 and 202 pilots have to deal with. It would change the fight and make it harder for 202's and 109's to turn and burn on the deck with VVS aircraft. Everyone here will already admit that LW aircraft shouldn't do it, but they do, and that stab exploit makes it easier for them to compete an arena that they shouldn't even be competing in.

 

Just my two cents.

Finally man with open mind who did try it and yes i agree about wheels on VVS and especially mig3 which is so stiff at elevator on high speed, that I miss many times my shooting because I do not have time to use keys to trim it nose/tail heavy...

[Aap]

Honestly, I still don't see any benefit of having it on the same axis. On separate axis I can control those things independently, on the same axis I don't have that option. Let's say I want to go to a shallow dive. With that "expoit" I could push my stick 10% forward and would get -10% stab trim, too (right?). Without the "expoit" I could also push stick 10% forward and at the same time put -10% stab trim from separate axis. But I could also choose to dive by just trimming down and not using stick at all. So what is the benefit of the "exploit" if it just reduces my options and forces me to use an option that is maybe not the best one?

 

I have never tried that "exploit", so out of curiosity, if you use these "normal" and "dogfight" modes, how does the game read the trim positions? For example, if you trim to +30% in "normal" mode and then switch to "dogfight" mode and pull your stick 10%, does it also put trim position at +10% or does it put it at +40% (the pre-trimmed +30% being new "0-point)?

 

What comes to Russian planes with wheel trims, then I also agree that would be nice to have them on axis too. I think there was an official poll about it even, so would not be surprised if the devs were already working on it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Like kicking a dead whores

[ACG_pezman]

Honestly, I still don't see any benefit of having it on the same axis. On separate axis I can control those things independently, on the same axis I don't have that option. Let's say I want to go to a shallow dive. With that "expoit" I could push my stick 10% forward and would get -10% stab trim, too (right?). Without the "expoit" I could also push stick 10% forward and at the same time put -10% stab trim from separate axis. But I could also choose to dive by just trimming down and not using stick at all. So what is the benefit of the "exploit" if it just reduces my options and forces me to use an option that is maybe not the best one?

 

I have never tried that "exploit", so out of curiosity, if you use these "normal" and "dogfight" modes, how does the game read the trim positions? For example, if you trim to +30% in "normal" mode and then switch to "dogfight" mode and pull your stick 10%, does it also put trim position at +10% or does it put it at +40% (the pre-trimmed +30% being new "0-point)?

 

What comes to Russian planes with wheel trims, then I also agree that would be nice to have them on axis too. I think there was an official poll about it even, so would not be surprised if the devs were already working on it.

 

You cannot bind the stabilizer to two different axis' and have both commands work.  It's just a loophole with breaking the same axis in half by using a modifier, for some reason it will work.

 

But to answer your question, it just re-adjusts the stabilizer to the current location of the physical axis.  While the stabilizer traverses more slowly than the input commands it's given, it is still always working with the elevator.

 

While it's fun to mess around with, it's really not practical for serious flying, it's just to crazy.  It can let you throw your nose around pretty rapidly, but that also makes it much more difficult to aim.  But on Berloga or Normal, where the dogfights abound, the contacts are plentiful, the lives are short, and the tossing and turning never ends... it could be advantageous. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

You cannot bind the stabilizer to two different axis' and have both commands work. It's just a loophole with breaking the same axis in half by using a modifier, for some reason it will work.

 

But to answer your question, it just re-adjusts the stabilizer to the current location of the physical axis. While the stabilizer traverses more slowly than the input commands it's given, it is still always working with the elevator.

 

While it's fun to mess around with, it's really not practical for serious flying, it's just to crazy. It can let you throw your nose around pretty rapidly, but that also makes it much more difficult to aim. But on Berloga or Normal, where the dogfights abound, the contacts are plentiful, the lives are short, and the tossing and turning never ends... it could be advantageous.

Those all are lies, you can bind trim even to 3 separate axis, those even can be bind to others axies to. They work just fine together. I was testing it and flying fine and making streaks on TAW and Random Expert. Aim was better in high speed deflection shooting or fast adjustments and normal on others speeds.

[Aap]

 

 

Those all are lies, you can bind trim even to 3 separate axis, those even can be bind to others axies to. They work just fine together. I was testing it and flying fine and making streaks on TAW and Random Expert.

 

So do you mind explaining how it works in your opinion then? If you have the stab trim on 3 separate axis, what is the trim position in the game?

Let's take the previous example, you use trim wheel to have +30% trim, then pull your stick 10% and keep it there for a few seconds. What is the trim position? Trim can't be both +10% and +30% at the same time. I could imagine that it could be +30% if the trim wheel is primary control or +10% if the stick is primary control or +40% if it somehow adds the readings from both positions. I was just curious how the game reads the position - whatever the case is, the "exploit" still does not give any benefit, because still, could have the same trim and stick position also when they are on separate axis.

 

 

 

Aim was better in high speed deflection shooting or fast adjustments and normal on others speeds.

 

Honestly, that sounds just weird.  If you do fast adjustments in high speed deflection shooting, it means that your stabilizer is stil moving while you are shooting, which means that it is moving the pipper away from where you are pointing, so how does it make your aim better? It sounds like claiming that it is easier to shoot a fade-away in basketball than shooting a free throw.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

You can have it on 3 but this is useless, 2 is enough. I will record video during weekend. It's just moving together with elevator in same direction, you have to map it in such a way that pulling nose up will move wheels and increase stab % and when moving control column away it's opsite. If I remember correctly that minus is nose heave if not try other way. If you bind it wrong way they will fight each other one (stab) will want go up other (elevator) down in same time.

Edited March 17, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[PeterZvan]

You cannot bind the stabilizer to two different axis' and have both commands work.  It's just a loophole with breaking the same axis in half by using a modifier, for some reason it will work.

 

 

 

Not true - you can bind the vertical stab to pitch axis and another axis at the same and both work at the same time - you just have to reactivate the firstly binded axis again by rebinding it.

I have tested this with the 109 and it works perfectly - I have a rotary pot (Fat mamba) which I normaly use for v stab - with this one I set the normal trim when the pitch is in 0 position.

Than the pitch modifies the trim by the ammount that I pull. And the trim changes are fast enough for it to be perfectly controlable. 

It is a proper exlpoit of the game mechanics which I am sure can be reproduced for the VVS planes with smart bindings externally (virtual buttons by axis) - achieving much the same effect, however the regural trim on VVS planes is by far less effective in dives than the 109 v stab. 

IMO - it should be like on the 190 - only doable by buttons. Still can be used in combat, just not so easily. However smart users will still be able to bind it to axis externaly. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yep Peter I'm glad you step in and confirm that issue, lots ppl are trying to deny this ,I can understand why...

[ZachariasX]

Like kicking a dead whores

I don't know what you do in your extra time to come up with this, but you probably meant right but definitely saying something wrong.

 

A wing stalls at a specific AoA. How you get there, elevator movement, stabylo movement, a barrell of water in the tail... does not matter at all. The max. AoA of the wing relative to air never changes, as long as you are not changing the wing.

 

Where you are right, in case stick travel is not sufficient to reach max. AoA, be it because the elevators are small, the wing having a high max AoA (especially power on) and you are very slow (basically turn as tight as possible, flying too slow, max power) then the stick travel might not be sufficient to reach max. AoA of the wing. Moving the stabylo will help you doing so.

 

The Fw-190 required rudder back trim to to fly the tightest circle possible. Whether it is the case with the real 109 I don't know. Maybe with our in-game 109 it is the case.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Ah, the old "trim on a slider" issue will never go away.

 

And in reality it will always be with us because of the limitations of the controllers we use for computer flight simulation, no matter the cost of what you have.

 

For instance, I have my 109 stab mapped to the unused throttle wheel on my CH Fighterstick, hence, I can go from one extreme of travel to the other in the blink of an eye.  Realistic? No, but there are no control wheels out there that are large diameter, and with a slow enough ratio to simulate a proper 109 stabilizer control.  My standard elevator trim tabs like the allied birds have, are mapped to the thumb rocker on the side of the stick.  It acts just like the electric elevator trim control on modern aircraft.  I think I have the FW 190 mapped there as well, I don't fly the 190 a whole lot so I don't remember here at the office.

 

Unless we all had proper sim pits, one for each type of aircraft we fly btw,  there will never be a way to simulate proper control usage, and I wont even get into how G-loading should affect our ability to operate the controls.

Edited March 17, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[unreasonable]

 and I wont even get into how G-loading should affect our ability to operate the controls.

 

I almost wish the game would though - it would be interesting to see what these fights looked like with physical limitations matching those of real people playing a full part.

 

A whole new level of complexity to dispute as well ....  which nation could resist G forces better etc....

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Ah, the old "trim on a slider" issue will never go away.

 

And in reality it will always be with us because of the limitations of the controllers we use for computer flight simulation, no matter the cost of what you have.

 

For instance, I have my 109 stab mapped to the unused throttle wheel on my CH Fighterstick, hence, I can go from one extreme of travel to the other in the blink of an eye. Realistic? No, but there are no control wheels out there that are large diameter, and with a slow enough ratio to simulate a proper 109 stabilizer control. My standard elevator trim tabs like the allied birds have, are mapped to the thumb rocker on the side of the stick. It acts just like the electric elevator trim control on modern aircraft. I think I have the FW 190 mapped there as well, I don't fly the 190 a whole lot so I don't remember here at the office.

 

Unless we all had proper sim pits, one for each type of aircraft we fly btw, there will never be a way to simulate proper control usage, and I wont even get into how G-loading should affect our ability to operate the controls.

Actually how fast stab is moving was adjusted by devs to semi real time, so that abuse by how fast you reach maximum on physical thing was addressed. Ofc We can't simulatie all aspects of real life but that is not in contradiction with statement that there shouldn't be obvious ways to abuse system and opinion that it doesn't matter.

[ACG_pezman]

Not true - you can bind the vertical stab to pitch axis and another axis at the same and both work at the same time - you just have to reactivate the firstly binded axis again by rebinding it.

I have tested this with the 109 and it works perfectly - I have a rotary pot (Fat mamba) which I normaly use for v stab - with this one I set the normal trim when the pitch is in 0 position.

Than the pitch modifies the trim by the ammount that I pull. And the trim changes are fast enough for it to be perfectly controlable.

It is a proper exlpoit of the game mechanics which I am sure can be reproduced for the VVS planes with smart bindings externally (virtual buttons by axis) - achieving much the same effect, however the regural trim on VVS planes is by far less effective in dives than the 109 v stab.

IMO - it should be like on the 190 - only doable by buttons. Still can be used in combat, just not so easily. However smart users will still be able to bind it to axis externaly.

I have never attempted to bind my stabilizer to more than one Axis. In my experience with other axis' like Prop RPM, you can bind to multiple axis' but the first on you use will be the one that is active.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying I have never tried binding my stabilizer to two separate axis' to see if they both work for it. I did try it with prop rpm and it didn't work.

[Blutaar]

Ja ja ja, so what is it what you really want guys, make trim useable only through buttonpresses and not trim on axis or do you just want to have the same option on other planes or ist it just to disable multiple axis usage?

 

The last point will not solve it, people who do it will find another way to do the same just out of the game, you only could kind of prevent them from using this if the devs get rid of stabi trim on axis, so if this is what you want ok, then we can make it this way with for example the mixture lever also, you could bind it to your throttle and what is with radiators and prop pitch, you could bind it also to the throttle and maybe can get something out of it i dont know.

 

How do you feel about people using oil and water rads on one axis if this is possible?

 

I dont do such things, its not realistic, maybe the devs should take away all axis and try to simulate them via buttons like they tried with the stabi control, it feels wierd with buttons, very unprecise but they must get sure to remove multiple buttons per control.

 

Everyone can do the same and i know many use trim in dives to pull more gs like i do but i dont need this function on my pitch axis, i just use my thumb trim cooliehat, if i had a axis there instead of a coolie i would use it there and be thankful for having the option.

 

So i can agree on removing the possiblity to bind more then one axis to the pitch or whatever but i disagree with removing the ability to bind stabi trim on a axis even if i dont have it on a axis, no i would make all trimwheels axis controllable and say "thats a good update".

[ACG_pezman]

Ja ja ja, so what is it what you really want guys, make trim useable only through buttonpresses and not trim on axis or do you just want to have the same option on other planes or ist it just to disable multiple axis usage?

 

The last point will not solve it, people who do it will find another way to do the same just out of the game, you only could kind of prevent them from using this if the devs get rid of stabi trim on axis, so if this is what you want ok, then we can make it this way with for example the mixture lever also, you could bind it to your throttle and what is with radiators and prop pitch, you could bind it also to the throttle and maybe can get something out of it i dont know.

 

How do you feel about people using oil and water rads on one axis if this is possible?

 

I dont do such things, its not realistic, maybe the devs should take away all axis and try to simulate them via buttons like they tried with the stabi control, it feels wierd with buttons, very unprecise but they must get sure to remove multiple buttons per control.

 

Everyone can do the same and i know many use trim in dives to pull more gs like i do but i dont need this function on my pitch axis, i just use my thumb trim cooliehat, if i had a axis there instead of a coolie i would use it there and be thankful for having the option.

 

So i can agree on removing the possiblity to bind more then one axis to the pitch or whatever but i disagree with removing the ability to bind stabi trim on a axis even if i dont have it on a axis, no i would make all trimwheels axis controllable and say "thats a good update".

All we want is for the VVS aircraft, that also use a wheel to adjust pitch trim, to be able to bind those to axis' as well.

 

That's it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[BOO]

You cannot bind the stabilizer to two different axis' and have both commands work.  It's just a loophole with breaking the same axis in half by using a modifier, for some reason it will work.

 

 

 

 

Hi

 

Yes you can. Moreover if you set up deadzones and curves on your shared pitch/stab axis you can limit the effect of stab to a degree.  I used to have the stab on an unused throttle axis as well as on the stick. The throttle axis set the centre point of the pitch whilst the stick moved the stab plus/minus 20-30% from that point.

 

In the end I removed it a) because all the talk of it being an exploit b) it reduced the fine movement control

 

But it can be done.

 

Regards

 

BOO 

[DD_Arthur]

All we want is for the VVS aircraft, that also use a wheel to adjust pitch trim, to be able to bind those to axis' as well.

 

That's it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

Er...no.  Its an exploit that should be done away with.

[von_Tom]

Having watched umpteen Yaks dropping flaps all over the plave on WoL this thread makes me giggle.

 

von Tom

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I'm for trims on axie, but do not allow to bind more that one operation on it. Btw what Peter said about possible cheats by assign physical axis to buttons output - yes it's working but it's not convenient because when you move axie forward or backward it's constantly incresing or decreasing trim pitch - you have to move lever to center to stop it (adjusted by dead zone). I don't know it would be using rotary axie, but slider would work similar to lever.

Edited March 17, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[Dakpilot]

Having watched umpteen Yaks dropping flaps all over the plave on WoL this thread makes me giggle.

 

von Tom

 

What is wrong with dropping flaps, will you also be giggling when the F4F does the same thing in Midway?

 

or do you think dropping flaps in Yak is not creating proper drag?

 

if there is a possible exploit which is not correct, should attention be brought to it, or not

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[ACG_pezman]

What is wrong with dropping flaps, will you also be giggling when the F4F does the same thing in Midway?

 

or do you think dropping flaps in Yak is not creating proper drag?

 

if there is a possible exploit which is not correct, should attention be brought to it, or not

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Hahaha, going back to 2014 on that one.

[von_Tom]

The giggling is because people are whinging about a possible exploit yet they'll probably drop their flaps at the drop of a hat.  Drop flaps, stop in mid air, retract and zoom off.  I'm sure that happened over the Russian steppes...

 

Regardless of whether or not this is physically possible (and it probably is/was), the question is then whether it should be allowed or not.  I say "of course" in the same way that the adjustable stabiliser could be used in real life if one were so inclined.  Which most weren't unless there was an absolute need - over speeding in dives and so on.

 

So, one side is whinging about a possible exploit (hell you can map trim to the same axes as elevator if you want via software) but the whinging side uses its own "exploit."

 

Maybe not the best explanation I could give but you get the drift.

 

von Tom

[Dakpilot]

The giggling is because people are whinging about a possible exploit yet they'll probably drop their flaps at the drop of a hat.  Drop flaps, stop in mid air, retract and zoom off.  I'm sure that happened over the Russian steppes...

 

Regardless of whether or not this is physically possible (and it probably is/was), the question is then whether it should be allowed or not.  I say "of course" in the same 

 

Maybe not the best explanation I could give but you get the drift.

 

von Tom

 

Possibly not the best explanation   

 

I have yet to be able to drop flaps, stop in mid air retract them and zoom off, in a Yak..if I could, I would indeed say that was an 'exploit'

 

The fact that many people fly the sim in an 'unhistoric' manner with tactics that would not have been used IRL is a big irritation however, but there are so many ways that online 'combat' does not reflect real world WWII flying and combat doctrine that it is pointless to get upset about it.

 

there was an historic performance/drag/FM issue about Yak flaps but it has been 95% addressed rather a while ago

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[JG13_opcode]

 

 

Ah, the old "trim on a slider" issue will never go away.   And in reality it will always be with us because of the limitations of the controllers we use for computer flight simulation, no matter the cost of what you have.

 

 

This is the voice of reason.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Honestly not seeing how this is so helpful to the 109 pilot. People are carrying on like it imitates some form of vectored thrust, but I can't personally feel a difference; aside from the inability to trim my plane now.

 

Of course I am not a good pilot, so maybe I'm just not good enough to eek out the advantage this gives. Does it help in turn fighting or something? Because I don't really do that.

 

???

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 

 

onestly not seeing how this is so helpful to the 109 pilot. People are carrying on like it imitates some form of vectored thrust, but I can't personally feel a difference; aside from the inability to trim my plane now.

This exactly.  

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The fact that many people fly the sim in an 'unhistoric' manner with tactics that would not have been used IRL is a big irritation however, but there are so many ways that online 'combat' does not reflect real world WWII flying and combat doctrine that it is pointless to get upset about it.

Funny you say that because just a few pages back people brought up the question of the historical operation of the stabilizer and how it 'should be used ingame' as an argument to ban the axis assignment (which is most ridiculous).

 

There's no apparent advantage tied to it. You could also trim the aircraft noseup before pushing into a dive to get better controll respone at high airspeed. You could use flaps to increase lift and pull up quicker. There are many ways to acchieve the same with different technics.

 

What should be added is that the stabilizer is a good source of drag so anybody using this 'exploit' is giving up some of his speed advantage.

[Dakpilot]

I have never tried to use the ''exploit" but until some good tracks/vids/repeatable figures are posted showing the actual benefits in performance achieved compared to normal in game "historical" use, actually showing a clear advantage or incorrect functionality ('auto' bonding to stick is obviously wrong however) I remain unconcerned and sort of only slightly interested

 

Cheers

Edited March 18, 2017 by Dakpilot