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Ridiculous 109 pitch rates


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#1 Dave

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 16:57

Still waiting for the stabiliser trim exploit to be addressed. It is making the game unenjoyable when so many 109 pilots abuse this FM loophole.


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#2 JG13_opcode

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 17:56

Got chart?


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#3 1./JG54_Uwe

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 18:16

Got proof?
109 pilot for a decade here and I'm not even sure what you're talking about?
Shall I bring up flaps...?
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#4 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 18:54

Know about it. Never even tried it. Don't see it's purpose as I almost never get into those stupid slow speed turn fights. I know no one who I fly regularly with uses it either. Even the guys who enjoy that TNB stuff.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf, 11 March 2017 - 18:58.

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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#5 307_Tomcat

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 19:12

Stab cheat it's not for slow turns but to contrary it's "usefull" at high speed turns and pull outs from dives. You can pull out g-s that can thore wings apart. Those high speed turns or pulls out can't be achieved without stab and elevator abuse.
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#6 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 19:26

Stab cheat it's not for slow turns but to contrary it's "usefull" at high speed turns and pull outs from dives. You can pull out g-s that can thore wings apart. Those high speed turns or pulls out can't be achieved without stab and elevator abuse.

 

Pulling out of dives was one of the reasons for the stab existing, and if you pull too many G's your wings still fall off, regardless of how you actuated the stab.

 

I agree it seems a bit too fast, but people make too big a deal of this and are yet to provide any proof, probably because there isn't any. And anyone doing the stab-on-pitch-axis exploit is almost certainly a crappy pilot anyway so who cares. Hardly ruins the game IMO.


Edited by 19//curiousGamblerr, 11 March 2017 - 19:27.

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#7 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 20:22

Pulling out of dives was one of the reasons for the stab existing, and if you pull too many G's your wings still fall off, regardless of how you actuated the stab.

If that's the complaint then I admit to using it that way. It is quite useful and plausible from a mechanical perspective. You can argue for many unfruitful hours if it is historical. Really, really not concerned about it in that context. I thought we were ONLY talking about stab/elevator pairings on the same axis.

(Edited practical to plausible which is the word I got writers block on the first time around)

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf, 11 March 2017 - 22:56.

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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#8 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 20:40

If that's the complaint then I admit to using it that way. It is quite useful and practical from a mechanical perspective. You can argue for many unfruitful hours if it is historical. Really, really not concerned about it in that context. I thought we were ONLY talking about stab/elevator pairings on the same axis.

 

Same here. I use it to keep the nose down in the dive and then reverse it to pull out, bound to a thumb rotary on my X-55 throttle. I was mostly responding to Tomcat, not necessarily the OP.


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#9 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 22:57

Same and same. I feel no shame ;)
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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#10 JG13_opcode

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 23:17

The exploit is binding elevators and trim to the same axis. I have found it's not possible to trim for level flight when doing this. The F4 needs -40 or so but with the exploit you have 0 when the stick is centered.

It's useful on Berloga perhaps but I would not enjoy using it on any expert servers.

As for the OP, I don't think there's any point discussing it unless someone has historical data to compare against the game. Otherwise it's just feelings.
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#11 307_Tomcat

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 23:29

Pulling out of dives was one of the reasons for the stab existing, and if you pull too many G's your wings still fall off, regardless of how you actuated the stab.
 
I agree it seems a bit too fast, but people make too big a deal of this and are yet to provide any proof, probably because there isn't any. And anyone doing the stab-on-pitch-axis exploit is almost certainly a crappy pilot anyway so who cares. Hardly ruins the game IMO.


C'mon use your brain , proves ?? , there was a video about it, i can speak of me and my squad mates who try it... it's obvious as dead pixel on white background ... real disappointed :/

The exploit is binding elevators and trim to the same axis. I have found it's not possible to trim for level flight when doing this. The F4 needs -40 or so but with the exploit you have 0 when the stick is centered.

It's useful on Berloga perhaps but I would not enjoy using it on any expert servers.

As for the OP, I don't think there's any point discussing it unless someone has historical data to compare against the game. Otherwise it's just feelings.


Well,i did try it on full expert server and this is explopit and shuld be removed.
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#12 71st_AH_Barnacles

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 23:32

I do adjust the stabiliser regularly, the same way I adjust elevator trim. Whilst I don't think that it breaks the game, allowing a 1940s aircraft to have an all-moving active, high-lift control surface sounds like nonsense. If the same was/could be done on the aileron trim axis, you would have LaGGs and LAs achieving roll rates that the real aircraft could not do. To me this seems so obvious it does not require historical supporting evidence to convince me it is just plain wrong.

Either by the ability to bind it to the elevator axis, or the speed at which it can operate with that binding, the same thing is being done with the aircraft with adjustable stabilisers. The ability to do so should be removed.

Edited by 71st_AH_Barnacles, 11 March 2017 - 23:35.

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#13 307_Tomcat

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 23:44

As for the OP, I don't think there's any point discussing it unless someone has historical data to compare against the game. Otherwise it's just feelings.

Well , speaking of historical data... it was possible to pull control column in sync with stabiliser wheel ???
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#14 Ishtaru

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 00:01

Why not, with right hand pull the stick and with the left hand actuate the stabi, i see no problem from a layman pov but that not means that it was done back then. :)

Maybe ask a real 109 pilot on an airshow if he could do it if he want to, i guess his answers is "of course i could do it but why should i".

 

But sure i dont think that it should be possible to control the stabi and the pitch with just one axis, thats not ok in my opinion, i never know that its possible.

 

Someone said that the stabi/trim was not used to pull out of a dive, thats the opposite of what i thought, im not sure why but in my memorie it says it was used to pull out of a dive to help overcome the strong forces on the stick, gues i was wrong then.


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#15 19//Moach

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:22

it was not possible - and the infamous "stabilaxis" exploit seems to have made a comeback en masse lately - which is something that warrants an urgent fix

 

 

developers, please take heed - people are using the 109 stabilizer axis as a means to obtain extreme maneuverability from the immediate response it has to the input axis - this must be stopped

 

 

the 109 was not capable of doing this, as it was many times claimed in veteran accounts and flight tests performed by both sides, at speeds above 400km/h, the stabilizer wheel was barely even movable, and much too stiff to move without considerable effort, let alone quickly

 

 

the kind of behavior we are seeing here is historically absurd - the 109 was very hard on the controls at high speeds, and required significant force to such a degree it was a limiting factor on maneuverability - the pitch trimmed operation being "instant" effectively circumvents and removes a major aspect of how this plane performed -- read up

 

 

 

 

due to the sudden increase in the exploits popularity in the last few days, it would be highly advisable to remove the 109 stabilizer axis binding option for the time being - for until a proper solution can be implemented, ANY axis mapped to that control will offer this unfair advantage, just as long as it can be operated simultaneously with the stick (even if not necessarily set to the same axis)

 

up/down buttons only for that binding would suffice to ensure fair play and realistic dogfights, bringing it to the same level of realism as the rest of the fleet, albeit a harsh measure that is somewhat sad to see becoming a necessity


Edited by 19//Moach, 12 March 2017 - 03:24.

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This reminds me of the time I once built a Time Machine...  uh, no wait - that hasn't happened yet

 


#16 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:47

No plane is capable of doing this thats the problem.

(Re: i only fly german bombers now but i still hate when i see 109 doing silly things.)

this game handles Stab trim a little wrong anyways AFAIK (regarding its effects on Wings Centre of pressure and critical Angle of Attack and its effects on Stall Speeds
(not just turning and elevator Deflection )


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#17 Holtzauge

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:26

I actually sympathize with the idea to fix this but just as a though experiment imagine that the situation was the reverse: The in-game Me-109 stab was moving too slow and the “Luftwhiners” wanted to make it faster. I predict this thread would by now have been overloaded with posts pointing out that there is a procedure for getting things changed and if you just provide the evidence then this will be addressed by the developers and until then it’s just feelings. That’s my “feeling” about this….. ;)


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#18 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:45

Someone said that the stabi/trim was not used to pull out of a dive, thats the opposite of what i thought, im not sure why but in my memorie it says it was used to pull out of a dive to help overcome the strong forces on the stick, gues i was wrong then.

Trim was used to pull out of dives. Infact at high dive speeds the trim became very sensetive while still lightly moveable so pilots were advised to use it with great caution. There even is a finnish pilot report stating that he preferred to use flaps instead of the commonly advised trim to pull out of dives because they were less sensetive.

 

It is also known that german pilots used stab trim to help them with turns (not in the way it is used ingame when setting both to the same axis). So this 'historical debate' is quite obsolete.

 

Trim speed ingame is also not nessecarily wrong. What is wrong is that we have a continues motion that simulates an incremental motion in reality. That's difficult to implement but would likely have positive effect on how this 'abuse' works.


Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 12 March 2017 - 09:45.

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#19 unreasonable

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:07

 

Trim speed ingame is also not nessecarily wrong. What is wrong is that we have a continues motion that simulates an incremental motion in reality. That's difficult to implement but would likely have positive effect on how this 'abuse' works.

 

Why is it difficult? Hypothetically, one push of button could = x degrees of movement of trim wheel, with a "cooldown" between presses. With slider, once the trim starts moving, the wheel moves x degrees, stops for y% of a second, moves another x degrees and so on until it reaches the new position indicated by the slider. Seems fairly straightforwards to me....


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#20 II./JG77_Kemp

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:35

it was not possible

Why it was not possible to use stick and trim wheel at the same time exactly?

people are using the 109 stabilizer axis as a means to obtain extreme maneuverability from the immediate response it has to the input axis

The response is as "immediate" as with separate axis or buttons.

up/down buttons only for that binding would suffice to ensure fair play and realistic dogfights, bringing it to the same level of realism as the rest of the fleet

Stab trim was on a wheel in real life and is so in the game. It would be the worst approach to spend resources to make it less realistic and change it to buttons.

Speaking of mapping stab trim and elevator on the same axis - I wonder why is something that makes your plane worse called an expoit. It just takes away your ability to trim plane. Makes your top speed worse, accuracy worse, high speed turns worse etc. But if people really want that devs spend resources on that pseudo-problem, then it should be done by disabling the possibility to map different controls on same axis, rather than forcing it on buttons.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp, 12 March 2017 - 10:36.

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#21 1./JG54_Uwe

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:38

And people complain about "luftwhiners" :lol:

Every aircraft has issues-Ruskies have anti-gravity flaps, the P-40 is SERIOUSLY under powered, 37mm can snipe from a kilometer away, instability associated with rudder input, etc etc.

But in this thread we complain that 109 drivers are using their stab-trim as was used in real life.

Seriously guys there are bigger issues, and this isn't an issue at all.


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#22 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:53

Why is it difficult? Hypothetically, one push of button could = x degrees of movement of trim wheel, with a "cooldown" between presses. With slider, once the trim starts moving, the wheel moves x degrees, stops for y% of a second, moves another x degrees and so on until it reaches the new position indicated by the slider. Seems fairly straightforwards to me....

It sounds straight forward but will probably be difficult to code. I don't know of any game that accomplished to split an axis input into output increments yet so I guess there's more to it than the basic logic behind it (which in theory is quite simple as you said).


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#23 71st_AH_Barnacles

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:10

Why it was not possible to use stick and trim wheel at the same time exactly?

The response is as "immediate" as with separate axis or buttons.

Stab trim was on a wheel in real life and is so in the game. It would be the worst approach to spend resources to make it less realistic and change it to buttons.

Speaking of mapping stab trim and elevator on the same axis - I wonder why is something that makes your plane worse called an expoit. It just takes away your ability to trim plane. Makes your top speed worse, accuracy worse, high speed turns worse etc. But if people really want that devs spend resources on that pseudo-problem, then it should be done by disabling the possibility to map different controls on same axis, rather than forcing it on buttons.

Exactly, I think having the two move together is the pseudo-problem. I use a hat switch for the stabiliser adjustment; I can get the wings to break off an undamaged G4 as well as maintaining my aircraft in trim, so I also think it is not a massive issue.

 

In the poll started on the subject,

 

https://forum.il2stu...oll#entry436143,

 

The Developers state that the surface moves at a limited rate, and does not follow the axis instantly. Any reduction in this rate would require historical evidence, although instinctively I think it should move at the same rate as the flaps, as they were both a similar control wheel IRL.

 

And people complain about "luftwhiners" :lol:

Every aircraft has issues-Ruskies have anti-gravity flaps, the P-40 is SERIOUSLY under powered, 37mm can snipe from a kilometer away, instability associated with rudder input, etc etc.

But in this thread we complain that 109 drivers are using their stab-trim as was used in real life.

Seriously guys there are bigger issues, and this isn't an issue at all.

Totally agree, esp. the point about the p40, I'd much rather that efforts were made to get that more realistic.


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#24 19//Moach

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:15

this is not how the stabilizer was used in real life - to suggest so is to overlook the actual subject of this discussion

 

a problem exists, and it is widely known -- the 109 stabilizer axis mapping provides an immediate/excessive response to match the position selected by the player - this works to the detriment of the game given that it negates a major factor from that plane's flying characteristics, and in doing so provides an unrealistic advantage to the user, which is not possible to obtain in other planes (let alone realism objections)

 

 

assigning this control to any axis which can be  'flicked' around with a thumb is a very disreputable practice, as it effectively overrides a key element of how these planes ultimately perform, and allows unwanted behavior which cannot be reasonably ignored.

 

 

 

yet, if the case is such that the response is already non-immediate when used with an axis, then the matter is simply that of adjusting the operation speed - which makes this a very simple thing to accomplish

 

 

 

so... how fast does that wheel move...

 

 

There were no movable trim tab controls on the ailerons or rudder, although both had fixed tabs that could be bent on the ground. Pitch trim was affected by changing the stabilizer incidence thrugh a range of 12 degrees. The design scheme was that both the flaps and the stabilizer were coordinated mechanically from two 12-inch wheels mounted concentrically on the left side of the pilot's seat. By twirling both wheels in the same direction the pilot could automatically compensate for the change of pitch trim due to lowering or raising the flaps. Differential coordination could be set by moving one wheel relative to the other.

 

read full text

 

 

and a bit more info

 

 

 

there we have it - the stabilizer wheel is designed to operate together with the flaps, to overcome the pitch down forces those generate -- thus we conclude that the operation of the stabilizer must have an equal time between both ends to that of the flaps

 

currently, the 109 stabilizer functions somewhat faster (about twice, maybe more) than the flaps - this both leads to the unrealistic responsiveness issue, and also hinders the correct flap deployment procedure being followed according to its original design


Edited by 19//Moach, 12 March 2017 - 11:37.

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#25 307_Tomcat

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:47

And people complain about "luftwhiners" :lol:
Every aircraft has issues-Ruskies have anti-gravity flaps, the P-40 is SERIOUSLY under powered, 37mm can snipe from a kilometer away, instability associated with rudder input, etc etc.
But in this thread we complain that 109 drivers are using their stab-trim as was used in real life.
Seriously guys there are bigger issues, and this isn't an issue at all.


Because there are other problems we should ignore this... What a chaidlish argument.
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#26 307_Tomcat

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:57

Speaking of mapping stab trim and elevator on the same axis - I wonder why is something that makes your plane worse called an expoit. It just takes away your ability to trim plane. Makes your top speed worse, accuracy worse, high speed turns worse etc. But if people really want that devs spend resources on that pseudo-problem, then it should be done by disabling the possibility to map different controls on same axis, rather than forcing it on buttons.

It's not pseudo problem, I tested it you can fly with it just fine - trim 109 just fine (use stab on separate axis plus stab together with pitch). There are no top speed issue, turns can be tighter. I agree it should be on axie, I wonder why VVS trims are not...
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#27 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 13:40

a problem exists, and it is widely known -- the 109 stabilizer axis mapping provides an immediate/excessive response to match the position selected by the player - this works to the detriment of the game given that it negates a major factor from that plane's flying characteristics, and in doing so provides an unrealistic advantage to the user, which is not possible to obtain in other planes (let alone realism objections)

That's false, the stabilizer moves at a constant rate which indipendent from any analog or button input. There is no 'instant' change in trim that provides 'unrealistic advantage'.

 

currently, the 109 stabilizer functions somewhat faster (about twice, maybe more) than the flaps - this both leads to the unrealistic responsiveness issue, and also hinders the correct flap deployment procedure being followed according to its original design

Iroicly it's the opposite. I just tested it on the G-2 on ground and the flaps wheel moves 2 times quicker than the trim wheel, so this is also a false statement.


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#28 II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 16:26

I predict we get a thread lock before a single pilot gets G lock from the trim operation on a virtual 109.
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If the argument against expanding to the Western Front is simply the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed and defeated then there is absolutely no reason to ever go back to the late war Eastern Front either. 

 

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#29 1./JG54_Uwe

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 16:43

Because there are other problems we should ignore this... What a chaidlish argument.


The childish part is pretending this issue is one of great importance.
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#30 DerNeueMensch

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 18:41

Just make the stabilizer axis move in a linear fashion. As is right now, the speed at which you can turn the wheel increases after a couple of rotations (no matter if bound to an axis or a button) - makes no sense from a realism standpoint. The initial wheel rotation is roughly the same as in DCS and seems reasonable, that should be the speed for the whole range of the stabilizer deflection.


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#31 307_Tomcat

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 18:49

The childish part is pretending this issue is one of great importance.

Nobody said that, you make it up, who knows why? , you can deny but resonable person would thinks that you are using stab and elevatior on same axie and don't want loose that or dalay fix as long as possilbe.
I agree with you it's not that important but any one can freely notice this issue again and again ...

Edited by 307_Tomcat, 12 March 2017 - 18:49.

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#32 1./JG54_Uwe

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 00:13

Nobody said that, you make it up, who knows why? , you can deny but resonable person would thinks that you are using stab and elevatior on same axie and don't want loose that or dalay fix as long as possilbe.I agree with you it's not that important but any one can freely notice this issue again and again ...


Ah yes there it is.
Don't be so predictable. Already stopping to the "you just don't want it fixed because you like to cheat!"
It's the CFS forum version of calling someone a racist: a claim so overused that it's lost all effectiveness. Seriously you reds have been using the same lines since ubizoo and banana forums. It's time for new material.

Furthermore I'll say again that no, I do not believe it's an issue. Definitely not when considering the other glaring issues that the devs are steadily addressing.

Frankly it sounds more like a bunch of yak pilots with a bad case of sour grapes.
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#33 3./JG15_Kampf

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 00:18

And people complain about "luftwhiners" Every aircraft has issues-Ruskies have anti-gravity flaps, the P-40 is SERIOUSLY under powered, 37mm can snipe from a kilometer away, instability associated with rudder input, etc etc. But in this thread we complain that 109 drivers are using their stab-trim as was used in real life. Seriously guys there are bigger issues, and this isn't an issue at all.
 

Not to mention il2, which "hangs", maneuvers with stability. It looks like it weighs 1000 kg. I saw very good guys flying in Beloga with il2 and doing incredible things


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#34 1./JG54_Uwe

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 01:31

Not to mention il2, which "hangs", maneuvers with stability. It looks like it weighs 1000 kg. I saw very good guys flying in Beloga with il2 and doing incredible things


[edited]

 

I dont really care if you use that word in a sarcastic way. I warned several times already aboud the use of that word.


Edited by SYN_Haashashin, 13 March 2017 - 19:06.

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#35 307_Tomcat

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:42

Ah yes there it is.
Don't be so predictable. Already stopping to the "you just don't want it fixed because you like to cheat!"
It's the CFS forum version of calling someone a racist: a claim so overused that it's lost all effectiveness. Seriously you reds have been using the same lines since ubizoo and banana forums. It's time for new material.

Furthermore I'll say again that no, I do not believe it's an issue. Definitely not when considering the other glaring issues that the devs are steadily addressing.

Frankly it sounds more like a bunch of yak pilots with a bad case of sour grapes.


Assumption assumption and yet not correct, Firstly I do not overuse nothing, be francly with you I put this conclusion first time in the subject addressed to you and it was first time ever and calling it rassism is well not in place, secondary I'm not a VVS or yak fan boy i have rafly same time flying both sides. Good day.
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#36 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:21

So because a bunch of Turnfighter Sky-Knight Wannabe Hartmann Experten on Wings of [edited] and Berloga and whatever other Places these [edited], are completely arsing up 95% of their Flying Time because they can't trim their Planes properly anymore to gain a Minute Advantage over a bunch of [edited] Prophanger Yakdrivers for 5% of the Time that should mean the People with Trim-Axis on their Sticks shouldn't be able to use those anymore? 

What a bunch[edited].

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.
 

Thats it, last warning for you. Next time you use that lenguage I will apply the rules.


Edited by SYN_Haashashin, 13 March 2017 - 19:04.
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#37 Ishtaru

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:53

Trim was used to pull out of dives. Infact at high dive speeds the trim became very sensetive while still lightly moveable so pilots were advised to use it with great caution. There even is a finnish pilot report stating that he preferred to use flaps instead of the commonly advised trim to pull out of dives because they were less sensetive.

 

It is also known that german pilots used stab trim to help them with turns (not in the way it is used ingame when setting both to the same axis). So this 'historical debate' is quite obsolete.

 

Trim speed ingame is also not nessecarily wrong. What is wrong is that we have a continues motion that simulates an incremental motion in reality. That's difficult to implement but would likely have positive effect on how this 'abuse' works.

Thank you!

 

To my other point, i really think it is possible to use Stabi and stick at the same time in RL, why should that not be possible and im glad that we can do it ingame also?

With the trim button on my stick i can pull some crazy gs and i like it, just stick to the stomach and thump on the trim and up it goes the nose. :)

 

If you ask me as an offliner, i really dont care if people are exploiting it via two virtual axes on just one physical axes but it should not be possible in the first place, there are 100-200 people playing online and just a tiny fraction seems to bother and think its a problem, i care more about things like AI, viewdistance/renderdistance, better FM, better DM and million other things.

 

But yeah, for charitys sake pls devs, fix this!


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#38 unreasonable

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:09

The 109 G manual recommends setting the trim so that forwards pressure is required to hold the aircraft in a dive before entering the dive. similarly if I was entering a turning fight I would trim tail heavy first rather than trying to adjust under high Gs when I probably need both hands on the stick.

 

That aside, and no doubt there are other aspects, the problem here as I see it is not just about modeling the sensitivity and speed of the stab changes to the wheel changes, but the whole ergonomics of controlling a fighter requiring high stick forces while being subjected to high Gs.  Il-2 hardly models this at all, except for the (very hard to get) black out.

 

Personally as an SP/RP player I would like to have a module that incorporated human constraints into the control system much more completely - fatigue, G effects etc,  but this is not likely to happen, I can live without it and recognize other priorities. 

 

As for MP I am not sure what the problem is: as long as everyone has the same rules, why does it matter? It is not as though the MP servers are exactly a hotbed of realism....


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#39 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:58

Has been posted a couple of times but this thread indicates there's a need to repost it:

Attached File  Diving_Test_109F_W.Nr.9228_ger_eng.pdf   2.75MB   21 downloads

 

This test was performed with a pre G-2 / semi F-4 test airframe to analyse and improve the aircraft's performence at very high dive speeds (650km/h). As part of that work it was found that at that speed the elevator became ineffective whereas the stabilizer still functioned very well.

 

The 109 G manual recommends setting the trim so that forwards pressure is required to hold the aircraft in a dive before entering the dive.

That is true but that does not contradict the possebility to adjust trim during the dive. The reason for advising to setup trim before the dive was simply because for one trim became very sensetive at high airspeeds and dangerous to operate if abused and second just having to release stick pressure to exit the dive was a more convenient and safe method than carefully moving the trim wheel while retaining full stick pressure.


Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 13 March 2017 - 09:59.

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#40 307_Tomcat

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:28

Trims and stabilizer should be allowed to map on axies but not on the same axie which elevator is bind.
Btw I heard that 109 was quite stiff during fast dive, in game I find only Mig3 fitted to that description...

Edited by 307_Tomcat, 13 March 2017 - 10:28.

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