Developer Diary, Part 150 - Discussion

[HunDread]

It appears being a crap fighter is rewarding sometimes. I am not competitive on screen either and I do a lot of bombing runs where I think the cons of VR are not really an issue.

[OrLoK]

Hello there

 

Bought BOM to go with my BOS today as hopefully rift support is coming.

 

I, for one, welcome our VR masters.

 

Good stuff!

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

This was my initial thought too, but I thought we got the IL 2 3m with sweat back wings . And as I can see it we aint, meaning no special difference other than visual to what we got.

 

It should also have effect on handling qualities. If I'm not mistaken this configuration was the one with the highest ratio of takeoff accidents following the dangerous backshift of the CoG (which later lead to the introduction of swept back wings).

 

^This,  the BoK version of the IL-2 would be the most sluggish and harder to handle of them all, also the extra challenge of the windshield iron sight. As 5tuka said the new wings helped returning the handling capabilities closer to the single seat versions. So in the end it would be more different overall to the earlier variants than the late Type 3.

[Quax]

I was wondering how does An Oculus Rift vc1 or an HTC Vive compare to a 4K and 32 inch top quality full led monitor in terms of image quality.

 

I mean if we take away the virtual reality immersion stereo 360 vision experience , is the image that we see of similar quality or not at all.

 

The image quality is very far apart. As others said, you have an impressive "being there" feeling. But that is about all on the pro side.

Dogfight is impossible for me. I get sick (as i expected it before) within minutes. You can´t check your six (FOV is much to narrow). You have to turn your head directly at the direction, where you want to look at.

You can´t look around in the cockpit without moving your head and you can check only the forward 180 degrees. 

 

I guess, that I will enjoy some JU52 rides in BoS   But fighter planes, flown by VR pilots, will be easy targets - even for a bomber pilot like me 

[JG4_Sputnik]

VR!!! Can't wait! As long as it is as good as in DCS we're fine 

Vive and Oculus could make a 8K 180 degree FOV HMD today.  

That's actually not true.

Here's a keynote from chief scientist at Oculus, Michael Abrash who gives a 5 year plan for the Rift, and according to him, in 5 years we will be at 4kx4k resolution, which is a 30pixels/degree (today: 15px/degree) and about 140 degrees FoV.

 

(about 10min in)

 

Cheers

[Wolferl_1791]

VR!!! Can't wait! As long as it is as good as in DCS we're fine 

That's actually not true.

Here's a keynote from chief scientist at Oculus, Michael Abrash who gives a 5 year plan for the Rift, and according to him, in 5 years we will be at 4kx4k resolution, which is a 30pixels/degree (today: 15px/degree) and about 140 degrees FoV.

 

 

(about 10min in)

 

Cheers

 

Oh, so it's actually worse than I thought? I didn't lie, since there's one prototype with 210 degree FOV (but which sucks) and there have been experiments with cascading displays to double up the resolution (which also suck). But yeah, your video link reveals I might've been optimistic about the 2-3 years number, unless they make a breakthrough with the lenses. Anyway, here's what I hope will be the true "next gen" of vr, i.e. what I'd like to see before I actually consider abandoning my current HMD.

 

1. at least 150 fov (140 is fine as well, I guess)

2. whatever resolution allows for double pixel density at that fov value

3. a sort of belt with sensors (to figure out where your body is pointed) and batteries for "room experience", wireless and with at least 2 hours of play time per charge.

4. eye tracking, combined with a selective supersampling around the focused area. By what I've seen with the Vive, I guess a 1.3 overall and 1.8 in the focused area should be good enough. 

 

All of the above are probably doable today, the major problems being putting all of them into something that doesn't weigh a ton and doesn't cost more than the current gen. Plus the monster PC (or clever SLI drivers) required to run it. Seems my Vive is gonna last me longer than I thought. 

[JG4_Sputnik]

Yeah, for those "I'll wait for the next iteration"-guys I'd say jump in now, it is totally worth it and so good that waiting is wasted time imho.

 

BTW what is that super sampling and how would VR profit from it?

[dburne]

Yeah, for those "I'll wait for the next iteration"-guys I'd say jump in now, it is totally worth it and so good that waiting is wasted time imho.

 

BTW what is that super sampling and how would VR profit from it?

 

Super Sampling is Pixel Density in VR speak...

[kissklas]

Well, it's actually the same as you would do for a monitor.

You render the image at a higher resolution than your screen, and down sample the image to your native resolution. (I guess super sample sounds a lot better than down sample;p)

That way, every pixel you see is sampled more times and all edges/contrasted areas get smooth transitions without the use of post processing antialiasing effects.

For VR this means that reading letters and identifying small shapes are easier since the shapes are not as jagged around the edges.

It is however pretty performance heavy compared to other techniques, so you need a pretty good GPU to do this on current gen games.

[Gambit21]

The image quality is very far apart. As others said, you have an impressive "being there" feeling. But that is about all on the pro side.

Dogfight is impossible for me. I get sick (as i expected it before) within minutes. You can´t check your six (FOV is much to narrow). You have to turn your head directly at the direction, where you want to look at.

You can´t look around in the cockpit without moving your head and you can check only the forward 180 degrees.

 

I guess, that I will enjoy some JU52 rides in BoS But fighter planes, flown by VR pilots, will be easy targets - even for a bomber pilot like me

Your description alone made me queasy - no thanks.

[LukeFF]

Your description alone made me queasy - no thanks.

 

It's something you get used. I admittedly had a mild case of queasiness after flying BoS in VR for the first time, but the feeling of "being there" can't be beat. It's like the big change that came with trackIR - for me, there's no going back.

[Gambit21]

It's something you get used. I admittedly had a mild case of queasiness after flying BoS in VR for the first time, but the feeling of "being there" can't be beat. It's like the big change that came with trackIR - for me, there's no going back.

 

Got it.

But as it currently stands, there's no feeling of peripheral vision as such?

[kissklas]

Got it.

But as it currently stands, there's no feeling of peripheral vision as such?

There is. You have at least the mid peripheral view. Flying low you will have the trees whoosh by in the corner of your eye, and you should easily be able to keep the eye on your wingman in the formation:)

[dburne]

I was really concerned about getting the Rift as I get motion sickness fairly easily.

It was a little tough at first, had to take a few breaks here and there. After a few days though I got more used to it, now not so much at all.

 

I have had a lot of fun dogfighting in DCS in VR, and it has not bothered me all that much. For me, that is saying something.

I have been very pleased that it has ended up not being an issue for me.

 

And I agree with Luke, the feeling of being there is absolutely incredible. I could not go back either, so I am really looking forward to when BOS has support as well. My beloved Track IR is finally retired.

[Blutaar]

One short question, is it not possible to adjust the curves like we do with TrackIR when using VR so you dont need so much head movement?

Of course i have no idea how one would feel if the picture moves asynchronous to the head movement, maybe someone tried that already.

[dburne]

One short question, is it not possible to adjust the curves like we do with TrackIR when using VR so you dont need so much head movement?

Of course i have no idea how one would feel if the picture moves asynchronous to the head movement, maybe someone tried that already.

 

No, it is all 1:1 ratio.

[Blutaar]

Thank you.

[FlyingNutcase]

Sputnik, kissklass, Luke: It's interesting to hear from you guys that's it worth it despite the lower image quality and other cons. After reading a few of the recent posts I was starting to think that it might be better to put my VR dreams on the shelf for a few years and maybe buy a nice curved monitor. So can I take from your comments that combat is still do-able, or one's at a disadvantage but it's worth it for the immersion?

 

Being competitive/kill tally is less important to me than an immersive experience and I'm more into ground attack than dogfighting if you have anything to say about that.

 

Are there any images showing what the image quality is like in VR?

 

Thanks for any further input.

Edited March 7, 2017 by FlyingNutcase

[LukeFF]

Everything is still in beta testing right now, so I can't really say more than I already have.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

After new patch I noticed (Yak1b) more gun failures almost like majority of frontal damage results guns unable to shot.

[ZnarF]

To Flyingnutcase: don't worry about lower res of VR, the immersion is at a such new level that this factor is far more important. As said before, taking for example a Mig 21 in DCS in VR and making simple radionavigation becomes a much more intense experience than a dogfight in flat 2d!! Without speaking of the Oculus price drop, that reduces the difference with the curved flatscreen....

Edited March 7, 2017 by ZnarF

[kissklas]

If you are in it for the immersion and not the competition I would say you should try VR before making that choice. I am not going back to a monitor. Immersion wise it's like comparing headtracking/joystick to playing on a Gameboy.

 

Some really hate it though. Be it the resolution or the fact that it's just too much. You might get dizzy, and you might get stressed out,especially in the start.

Which is why you really have to try before making the choice.

 

You can still be competitive. At aiming/ judging distance and firing you should have an advantage in VR. But the spotting is worse due to the res.

 

As far as price goes, the rift just dropped the price. You have no need for the touch controls in il-2 so that means the price is even less.

 

A good curved screen should not be too far off in price, and you would only get a fraction of the immersion even if you had 5 of them all around you:-p

 

Try VR when it comes for Il-2. You might be blown away:)

[JG4_Sputnik]

Sputnik, kissklass, Luke: It's interesting to hear from you guys that's it worth it despite the lower image quality and other cons. After reading a few of the recent posts I was starting to think that it might be better to put my VR dreams on the shelf for a few years and maybe buy a nice curved monitor. So can I take from your comments that combat is still do-able, or one's at a disadvantage but it's worth it for the immersion?

 

Being competitive/kill tally is less important to me than an immersive experience and I'm more into ground attack than dogfighting if you have anything to say about that.

 

Are there any images showing what the image quality is like in VR?

 

Thanks for any further input.

 

 

Hi flyingnut

 

so let me explain; the Rift indeed is "kinda" low res - kinda because it is more like an old vhs tube monitor, it's not "pixelated" per se but rather a sharp blurriness, which sounds stupid I know. And also one have to take in count that everything what is near to your eye (the cockpit for example) is pretty "high-res-ish", you see all the details, meaning within minutes you don't notice it anymore. Like wearing glasses that have some stains on it which your brain ignores after a while. 

Everything that is wider away from you (the ground, the horizon, enemy planes) just get a bit blurry, like in a haze, so you see everything but just not in detail. Like bored stroke paintings.

 

As for dog-fighting; I am very very motion sickness prone and at the beginning I thought that I've never could compete in VR - but after a few weeks now I can pretty much do anything I did on 2D. But as in real live, I always think twice before engaging since I just have "so much" of fighting in me. You really can feel how "arcade" the 2D dogfights have been until now. 10 minutes high G maneuvers and constant 180 degrees looking back and stuff like that just wears on you - hell, even checking your 6 is just nothing you do every other second. And I'm sure that's nothing real pilots did, since it is a real "effort" to do. The fights just get much more realistic - sneak attacks will definitely gain, and so do running into the sun! And the different cockpits also make a big difference - you really see the difference between a 109 and a 190 now! Oh and then get a helicopter in DCS - this is a world for its own!

A button for labels on/off is the solution for the low res. After you have an enemy in range you can switch off labels and just pursue it almost like in 2d. It's a bit harder though to forsee its next move since you don't always can see its turn motions so well.

 

I would say if you are a die hard dog fighting competitor and this is your only joy in fligh-siming, don't get it. But if you are like me, who want's the immersion more than anything else, if you can have fun just flying and navigating, bombing and ground attacking, then the Rift (or the Vive) is just a must have. Over in the DCS forums there was a guy, real live helicopter pilot, who said that the Oculus Rift is much better than the multi million dollar trainer he learned flying on. Also many guys who switch from tripple monitor setup to VR. So I think it depends on what you are looking for. But for me, this is the biggest revolution in flight siming ever, only maybe the switch from pixel 2d to polygon 3d is comparable. It is simply that compelling that it is just not possible for me to go back to 2d - and I've tried a few times (mainly for BoS) but after a few minutes you just feel like a kid playing with paper planes and it feels so lame and unexciting and even embarrassing... And there you sit again "in" your cockpit in VR.

 

Let me bring it down to the question: is it more appealing for you to feel how high you sit above the ground in a certain plane, to actually see how big or small a leaver, a gauge, a switch is; to also being exposed to negative things that a dogfight provides, rather than having the best chances to win an online dogfight - then theres no reason (besides you don't have the money, of course) to not jump on VR RIGHT NOW!

Just saying

Cheers

[LLv24_Zami]

Okay, now look what you made me to do with your fascinating stories about VR flying!

 

I just ordered Oculus Rift, just could not resist anymore  . I hope it`s worth it 

[kissklas]

Okay, now look what you made me to do with your fascinating stories about VR flying!

 

I just ordered Oculus Rift, just could not resist anymore . I hope it`s worth it

Awesome! I hope you see the light! But beware; if you do, returning to 2D monitors may lead to VR abstinences and depression!:-p

 

See you in the skies... with depth perception!

[coconut]

Question: How is the Rift's tracking when turning your head 180 degrees? Assuming one does not mind the ensuing neck injury, can you check your six and not lose tracking?

[dburne]

Question: How is the Rift's tracking when turning your head 180 degrees? Assuming one does not mind the ensuing neck injury, can you check your six and not lose tracking?

 

I have a two sensor front facing setup, and for me I think it is pretty darn good. I also thought it was decent back when I had 1 sensor ( added Touch later which gave me 2nd sensor). Technically one should get a glitch when facing 180 degrees from the sensors, not sure why mine is not that bad - at least not so much it is noticeable to me. I have been playing some FPS games and have not really had trouble when turning around to shoot what is behind me.

 

The guys that go for that perfect 360 degree room scale setup, will normally go with 3 - and sometimes even try 4 sensors.

Officially, Oculus says 360 degree room scale is considered "Experimental".

 

I think if you are just talking about moving your head as far as you can while in the cockpit and seated, you will be fine even with 1 sensor.

Also keep in mind the Rift has a narrower field of view than your own eyes, so it is somewhat difficult to check six.

Edited March 8, 2017 by dburne

[StarLightSong]

HTC Vive user so I can't wait.

 

If you do some spin recovery practice in a garden variety Cessna you will see how crazy easy kicking around the sky with track IR is vs.

 

 

After some VR dogfighting "anything but" seems Much Fun but less work and a bit arcade.

Just not the heart in the chest pounding adrenaline rush of careening through the VR skies.

 

One issue: the VR immersion and concomitant  increased  difficulty and realism magnifies problems due to lag and poor hit detection.

 

So I'm glad the campaign is being well developed but that can be a bit lonely.

This might be less of an issue for those in larger population centers.

Oh, got to prepurchase the Kuban release if that's still available...

[kissklas]

Question: How is the Rift's tracking when turning your head 180 degrees? Assuming one does not mind the ensuing neck injury, can you check your six and not lose tracking?

There are IR diodes all the way around so you could turn your head like and owl and the tracking would be spot on, even with a single sensor. Only occlusion will mess with the tracking, and even then the effects are never bad due to a magnetometer, a gyroscope and an accelerometer that still work when the sensor loses tracking.

Edited March 8, 2017 by kissklas

[Venom]

Okay, now look what you made me to do with your fascinating stories about VR flying!

 

I just ordered Oculus Rift, just could not resist anymore  . I hope it`s worth it 

You won't regret it. I'd bet about ANYTHING on that, my car, my grandmother ... but NOT my CV1!

[Rjel]

Would those of you who've used VR for a period of time speak to whether you have experienced significant eye fatigue or headaches from extended use? And on average, how long of a period do you normally fly using VR? Is it minutes at a time? Hours? And lastly, can any of you say you've noticed any degradation of your eyesight since your start of using a VR unit?

[Lusekofte]

I follow VR groups , what these members state is you need to take it easy in the start, train your brain to understand that you sit still even if your sight receptors tells you otherwise . Many get sick in start, some ( very few) do not get rid of that feeling. But by far for most this pass very quickly. 

About how your eyes and brain cope with two low resolution screens close to ones eye, interested enough this is not seen as a problem. But this is relatively new . Longterm problems is not yet discovered. 

[kissklas]

Would those of you who've used VR for a period of time speak to whether you have experienced significant eye fatigue or headaches from extended use? And on average, how long of a period do you normally fly using VR? Is it minutes at a time? Hours? And lastly, can any of you say you've noticed any degradation of your eyesight since your start of using a VR unit?

No eye fatigue or headaches. I would say the opposite. I sometimes have headaches and eye fatigue after work, and it feels better after a while in VR. I think it's because the lenses makes you focus at one and a half meters distance, which is a lot more than my monitor at work.

 

I usually play 30min to a few hours. I am pretty nearsighted to begin with so no noticeable loss to my eyesight from VR.

[Rjel]

No eye fatigue or headaches. I would say the opposite. I sometimes have headaches and eye fatigue after work, and it feels better after a while in VR. I think it's because the lenses makes you focus at one and a half meters distance, which is a lot more than my monitor at work.

 

I usually play 30min to a few hours. I am pretty nearsighted to begin with so no noticeable loss to my eyesight from VR.

Do you notice then, once done flying, any temporary blurriness when looking around in the "real world". More to the point, do your eyes have to readjust to normal vision? 

[dburne]

Would those of you who've used VR for a period of time speak to whether you have experienced significant eye fatigue or headaches from extended use? And on average, how long of a period do you normally fly using VR? Is it minutes at a time? Hours? And lastly, can any of you say you've noticed any degradation of your eyesight since your start of using a VR unit?

 

I have been using the Rift going on close to two months now. It is all I use for gaming since I got it.

I also use it with Virtual Desktop at times, which basically gives me the Windows desktop that is displayed on my monitor.

 

I fly a lot in DCS with it, and also play some games I got through the Oculus store as well.

Probably for the most part average around an hour or so at a time. This afternoon I really got into one of my other Touch controlled games, and spent close to two hours playing it.

 

No headaches, no degradation, no ill side affects certainly that I can tell.

[jaydee]

I have been using the Rift going on close to two months now. It is all I use for gaming since I got it.

I also use it with Virtual Desktop at times, which basically gives me the Windows desktop that is displayed on my monitor.

 

I fly a lot in DCS with it, and also play some games I got through the Oculus store as well.

Probably for the most part average around an hour or so at a time. This afternoon I really got into one of my other Touch controlled games, and spent close to two hours playing it.

 

No headaches, no degradation, no ill side affects certainly that I can tell.

 

Hey Don, Nice to see you posting here again ~S~.

I have been on the fence about the "Current" VR Hardware and How it is supported at the moment. (plus I spent all my money on This Monitor and a 1080 to drive it).

There are heaps of Treads within "Other" Sims about the VR experience. ..Because BOS support for VR is in its infancy now, most of us (I) are standing back watching and waiting.. There are not many BOS VR experiences to be found.

Don would you be willing to Put your VR experiences in one new Thread ?.. The Pros the Cons etc. How the Latest Patch affects VR etc.

At least all of Your VR experiences would be in one Thread. I ,for one would very happy read your opinions with Updates etc.

Don, most of US Pilots in the Community(That was not USA, that was Us as in We) rely on Reviews and Opinions from people we Respect...Software and Hardware, most of us have read Reviews before our purchase.(disregarding SimHQ).

Any chance you would be willing to give your Perspective in a Dedicated Thread Don ?

J ~S~

[kissklas]

Do you notice then, once done flying, any temporary blurriness when looking around in the "real world". More to the point, do your eyes have to readjust to normal vision?

No, none at all:)

[dburne]

Hey Don, Nice to see you posting here again ~S~.

I have been on the fence about the "Current" VR Hardware and How it is supported at the moment. (plus I spent all my money on This Monitor and a 1080 to drive it).

There are heaps of Treads within "Other" Sims about the VR experience. ..Because BOS support for VR is in its infancy now, most of us (I) are standing back watching and waiting.. There are not many BOS VR experiences to be found.

Don would you be willing to Put your VR experiences in one new Thread ?.. The Pros the Cons etc. How the Latest Patch affects VR etc.

At least all of Your VR experiences would be in one Thread. I ,for one would very happy read your opinions with Updates etc.

Don, most of US Pilots in the Community(That was not USA, that was Us as in We) rely on Reviews and Opinions from people we Respect...Software and Hardware, most of us have read Reviews before our purchase.(disregarding SimHQ).

Any chance you would be willing to give your Perspective in a Dedicated Thread Don ?

J ~S~

 

Sure I would be glad too, may be a day or two but I will try and get one in the Hardware Software and Controllers forum here soon.

 

Great to be here, thanks!

[SYN_Mike77]

Okay, now look what you made me to do with your fascinating stories about VR flying!

 

I just ordered Oculus Rift, just could not resist anymore  . I hope it`s worth it 

I hope you realize that publishing that information obligates you to a full review in this forum!

 

Seriously, I would love to know how a non early adapter responds to Rift+ BoX.

[Rjel]

Thx for the replies everyone.

 

I think the suggestion for a stickied thread concerning VR use would help a lot of us with questions.