Developer Diary, Part 150 - Discussion

[HagarTheHorrible]

I was wondering how does An Oculus Rift vc1 or an HTC Vive compare to a 4K and 32 inch top quality full led monitor in terms of image quality.

 

I mean if we take away the virtual reality immersion stereo 360 vision experience , is the image that we see of similar quality or not at all.

Nothing like, I'm afraid. Resolution is probably the biggest distraction at the moment. The feeling of being part of the sim world however more than makes up for it, you just have to temper your expectations and realise that both offer something, just not everything, and decide which is more important.

[=IL2AU=chappyj]

thats not to say its terrible either. its actually really quite good especially if you can do some upscaling etc. 

[Madov]

In terms of flying experience the CV1 trumps a supersize monitor with massive resolution every time. The immersion is the decisive factor here. However, the problem comes when you introduce the combat element. My experience with DCS is that your ability to spot and view contacts is vastly reduced from the previous 2D monitor panorama and this makes the interactive element less than satisfactory. Howerver, for myself, I am more into the flying formation aspect of simulation so VR is positively the way to go.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Well,

 

although I do not plan to use VR, and I am just fine and happy with TIR5, what can I say regarding the "ENERGY" of 1C / 777 Team and the way they kepp providing us users with what I can't say in any other way then as I put it in my signature, here and at the other flightsim forums I visit, less one for obvious reasons ... namely not being impolite...

 

Thanks, again, for the excellent News 1C / 777 !!!

 

Really looking forward to be able to add the Spitfire to my 1C / 777 IL.2 Battle of ... fleet :-)

Edited March 4, 2017 by jcomm

[Bullets]

Pretty please Spitfire pics?    

[216th_Peterla]

Nice IL2 model. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I was wondering how does An Oculus Rift vc1 or an HTC Vive compare to a 4K and 32 inch top quality full led monitor in terms of image quality.

 

I mean if we take away the virtual reality immersion stereo 360 vision experience , is the image that we see of similar quality or not at all.

VR In terms of resolution can't touch monitor, but 3d depths can't be done in 2d. Scale is easly made done in VR and hard to in 2d.

BTW something in between is 3D vision where you have high res and 3d depth togheter.

Edited March 4, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I have question to Devs, yours VR implementation would work with riftcat project?

[Nil]

VR! I know I will not use it so far, but, THIS IS HUGE! what an outstanding team!

The IL2 looks gorgeous. At least now the gunner will have a semi closed canopy.

 

You guys are doing outstanding job. I hope that the known bug will be fixed one day.

 

And, I hope that this sim will be free to play with tanks, it will attract a lot of players!

[Yankee_One]

Nice update Han.

 

I must say cant wait for the IL-2. One of my favorite aircraft. Not the arrow but close

 

Great to see that bird. Thank you

[Jade_Monkey]

Waiting for vr 2.0. However this is huge news!!

 

A recent article with a higher res VR headset (LG i think) said the difference was minimal. We are going to have to cranck the res all the way to 11 to see a real improvement.

[dburne]

Interesting they have chosen to make the gun-sight a one eye closed deal for VR, certainly a little different. I guess one will get used to it though...

 

Edit - Re-reading the full news appears that is only applicable to certain sights, like the PE-2 Lower or Tank gunner. I initially thought it was across the board.

Edited March 4, 2017 by dburne

[Beazil]

*readies meds for Aeroace*

 

This happens every once in a while around here.

[J2_Steve]

Would be interesting to know, if Han was going to buy a VR HMD, which would he choose!

[Jason_Williams]

Guys,

 

I need to temper your excitement and expectations about VR. What Han is saying is that supporting VR has been like stumbling in the dark for a lot of it. As such, do not expect a perfect VR implementation. Our Lead Programmer has not solved all issues and in beta there are several bugs and other issues we'll need to solve in the future like icons not working, the gunsight reticle issues and wonky gunner stations. I'm sure there are solutions to this, but we'll have to research and maybe speak to the OR and Vive teams if they'll speak to us to solve. Our VR is better than before, but it's not perfect. Please keep this in mind. And we have many other features and additions to work on so we may have to re-visit VR later on if we can't find a speedy solution to some of these issues.

 

Jason

[dburne]

Guys,

 

I need to temper your excitement and expectations about VR.

 

No worries, however long it takes just knowing it is eventually coming is a great thing.

 

If I read this statement right:

 

"All in all, we like how VR works in our sim, it's on par or even better than in other sims."

I would say you guys are certainly on the right track!

Edited March 4, 2017 by dburne

[BlitzPig_EL]

While it will never work for me because of an eye condition, I hope that once sorted out, VR will bring more people to the sim.

 

I also hope that continued graphic development for non VR users won't be hampered by the division of labor needed for VR implementation.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Guys,

 

I need to temper your excitement and expectations about VR. What Han is saying is that supporting VR has been like stumbling in the dark for a lot of it. As such, do not expect a perfect VR implementation. Our Lead Programmer has not solved all issues and in beta there are several bugs and other issues we'll need to solve in the future like icons not working, the gunsight reticle issues and wonky gunner stations. I'm sure there are solutions to this, but we'll have to research and maybe speak to the OR and Vive teams if they'll speak to us to solve. Our VR is better than before, but it's not perfect. Please keep this in mind. And we have many other features and additions to work on so we may have to re-visit VR later on if we can't find a speedy solution to some of these issues.

 

Jason

I think anyone who is into flight sims and has already dipped their toes ( surely something wrong there) into VR, quite possibly in DCS, will be quite relaxed and realistic about what to expect, it's more proof of concept and getting ready for the future. I still expect it to be amazing fun though, the sheer joy of flying these aircraft in VR. Given the limitations of present day VR, flying bomber formations might become more fun, engaging and popular as I think they, in VR's present form, play to it's strengths while avoiding some of the pitfalls.

[Fortis_Leader]

I'm afraid I don't agree. While I think VR is exceptionally suitable for flight sims and may expand it's audience, DCS,, as it stands, has a better chance of pulling non flight simmers in if for one reason only ' YOU CAN ExPERIENCE IT FOR FREE". Whether that translates to pulling in paying customers is anybodies guess. BOX is more fun and better suited to casual simmers ( to my mind at least) than DCS but without a free trial or limited demo a lot of potential customers won't risk $50 just for a quick taster to see if BOX and VR does it for them. I think there are lots of VR customers out there willing to experiment and try something new, flight sims included, but asking customers to scattergun their cash around at $30, $40, $50 dollars a pop is very limiting. Having limited time trials or demo's might help convert some non flight simmers to give it a go. As a suggestion maybe 777 could offer a very limited single map and one or two simple turn and burn aircraft for a $3 or $4 mini game / taster at SteamVR or Oculus home, redeemable if the full game is bought. My choice of a single aircraft would be the Il16, nothing complex, just turn and burn flying fun.

 

I disagree due to performance issues mainly. With my current setup, my average FPS in DCS is just reprehensibly bad, something in the region of 40 at maxed out graphics. BoX? Even in the most demanding circumstances, and with maxed out graphics (which are frankly light years ahead of the rather disappointing stage DCS is in), I easily get more than twice that. BoX doesn't just look better graphically speaking, but it runs well enough that I could actually use a VR headset with it.

 

Separately, I do agree that having some free/cheap demo would be helpful for BoX sales.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I disagree due to performance issues mainly. With my current setup, my average FPS in DCS is just reprehensibly bad, something in the region of 40 at maxed out graphics. BoX? Even in the most demanding circumstances, and with maxed out graphics (which are frankly light years ahead of the rather disappointing stage DCS is in), I easily get more than twice that. BoX doesn't just look better graphically speaking, but it runs well enough that I could actually use a VR headset with it.

 

Separately, I do agree that having some free/cheap demo would be helpful for BoX sales.

I agree that BoX should hopefully run better than DCS, but the limitations of resolution and fov won't change and if anything limited fov will be a bigger issue in BoX than DCS because of the type of combat.. It will be interesting to see how it compares, frame rate wise, I get the impression in DCS that you either get 90 fps or it defaults to 45, or in other words, half if it can't manage that, with little in between which actually introduces lots of graphical errors. Hopefully with a better chance of achieving a consistent 90 fps the experience in BoX will be qualatively better. Edited March 4, 2017 by HagarTheHorrible

[dburne]

Regarding VR, I think it is more about spreading the word than anything. Although I am sure a demo would help.

If gamers hear positive recommendations from members in the community oftentimes they will go ahead and spend the bucks to give it a try. I have already purchased some really good VR titles due to this very reason since getting my Rift.

 

I have certainly been spreading the word on some other forums regarding BoX and the future VR support, and it is generating interest as well and hopefully some sales.

 

Also once VR support is implementing, getting one of the better known VR reviewers to do one on BoX in VR would go a long way as well. Words with links to the reviewer's words and vids are big assets.

We VR enthusiasts will definitely want to participate in spreading the word.

I get the impression in DCS that you either get 90 fps or it defaults to 45, or in other words, half if it can't manage that, with little in between which actually introduces lots of graphical errors. Hopefully with a better chance of achieving a consistent 90 fps the experience in BoX will be qualatively better.

 

That is not a DCS thing, that is ASW - an Oculus thing. When frame rates dips below 90 fps that kicks in and runs at 45 blending everything so you get a smooth experience below 90 fps down to 45fps.

In the Rift ASW is enabled by default, but can be disabled.

Edited March 4, 2017 by dburne

[Froddi_VR]

Looks great! Cant wait for the Il2

[Danziger]

I think a free demo with an Il-2 or Ju-87 as flyable would be a great idea. Just enough to get hooked on it.

Also I can't wait for the next Il-2! I really hope a talented mission maker can recreate the training and familiarization missions from the old '46 for it. I also hope we can get our cursing gunner back

[Feathered_IV]

I think a free demo with an Il-2 or Ju-87 as flyable would be a great idea.

That would make a lot of sense if a demo were ever created. The Il-2 is easy enough to fly and the Stuka is iconic enough that it would serve as a great introduction to the series. Plus a few extra poorly flown attack aircraft on the servers could only benefit everybody else. They would be a much better selection than something like the 109 for example, as a flood of casual players and griefers would be much less troublesome in them to other players.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I think a free demo with an Il-2 or Ju-87 as flyable would be a great idea. Just enough to get hooked on it.

Also I can't wait for the next Il-2! I really hope a talented mission maker can recreate the training and familiarization missions from the old '46 for it. I also hope we can get our cursing gunner back

Agreed. It would also force newbies to figure out how and what to do with the controls, engine management, as well as not out casting those who bought the starter version of BoS.

[Sir_Galahad]

Nice work devs!

 

Looks like the Il-2 1943 pilots cannot open up their cockpits anymore without the gunner's canopy going overboard! They'll have to get used to the reduced visibility from the huge armour plates - no more sliding back the canopy to get more visibility. 

 

I'm hyped for the Spit and its Merlin's pur!

[216th_Peterla]

^^ The open canopy in the IL2 is great if there are no threats but if a fighter is around or AAA in the area you better keep it closed.

Anyway, I guess that once in the air you will be able to open the forward one and the gunner will be keeped close....or he will be getting a cold.

[C6_lefuneste]

Good news for the VR ! 

For the moment I am stuck to DCS, waiting for the VR in BoS,I played some hours in VR with the DCS gazelle campaign,

I hope that you will not do the same mistake than ED for the essential zoom feature : make it instantaneous and only using a part on the screen, like in the picture here otherwise it will introduce sickness (the picture is the result of a mod of mine, and, unlike what it showns, the zoom make jauges really readable, the bad quality of picture is created by screen mirroring)...I used this zoom a lot, and it is not disorienting and it does not introduce sickness.

It should also be great to have different zoom level (at least one for reading the cockpit jauge and one for searching the outside), and to have a "real" zoom (that is not based on pixel shader like my mod, it works only because of supersampling and poor resolution of the helmet) 

Brightness/constrast settings are also lacking in DCS, but maybe the gamma correction in BoS  will do it ?

Another thing that is bothering me is that the FOV is narrower than in Real life, so it is really hard to look behind your shoulder. Maybe special snapview than can only be triggererd when in "looking backward" position/angle should be a great feature ?

And I am not surprised that you had hard time with sights and labels, they are also not easy to use in 3Dvision mode.

Edited March 5, 2017 by lefuneste

[FlyingNutcase]

Even if not a final implementation, this will open the VR doors for BoX. Does anyone know when the next iteration of Vive or OR is due out? I'll wait for the next model - hoping for the end of this year.

[Wolferl_1791]

I've flown in VR in War Thunder for about 9 months, tried to help people by posting some nice topics about it on the VR section of their forum. So here's some impressions and suggestions:

 

1. Flying in VR is comptetitive. Most Youtubers saying that it's just for cruising around are either getting sick too easily, or they haven't realized they have a Supersampling setting. The tech might be in its infancy, the resolution might be blurry, the headset might be uncomfortable, but once you get used to it, there is no going back. Each second the IL-2 devs are spending on VR is time well spent.

 

2. After IL-2 VR goes live, expect a flood of requests for RoF VR. It makes perfect sense. RoF is a well fleshed out sim, the older engine provides great fps on modern VR rigs, most dogfights are at close range and the sim doesn't have too many controls so it doesn't need an expensive HOTAS. Aiming without reflex sight will take some getting used to but it will still be worth it. I for one have all the planes in RoF, but I'd gladly buy them again just to play in VR in RoF 2  . 

 

3. IL-2 is quite challenging when it comes to identifying planes. Even when zoomed in on a big monitor, it's an integral part of the game. Imagine trying to play without zoom, ouch. So Zoom in VR, particularly because of the low resolution (even with supersampling), is a must. Without zoom, we'd be stuck in single-player with labels. A good zoom system would need to take into account the need for better LOD which destroys framerate. So yes, Lefuneste's idea of zooming just part of the screen is great because you can selectively raise LOD just in the middle of the screen. A bit of extra work to provide some sort of "smart labelling" for single player would also be nice. Basically, if a target is in the middle of your screen for a few seconds, it would get a label for a short time.

 

4. Don't count on people closing one eye to aim. You'd basically halve the resolution. It also blurs your closed eye for a few seconds after you open it again. War Thunder has a few planes with iron sights in low tiers. In fact, here's a link to how to aim in VR, both with reflex sights, and iron sights. Both eyes remain open at all times. https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/337670-guide-how-to-aim-in-vr/

 

5. During the summer IL2 VR test, the camera was blocked inside the cockpit. But current headsets have a FoV of 110 degrees, so you can't rely on peripheral vision to check your six. You have to twist your neck A LOT to check your six, much more than a real pilot (they were strapped in their seats, anyway). So you have to turn your entire upper body half to compensate. In most planes in WT, I literally had to stick my head through the side windows to be able to do it. Even then, moving my head from side to side was quite uncomfortable and once did lead me to have neck pains. Also, most planes will have their wings covering up most of your lateral down vision area. So the only place where you can actually cheat by sticking your head through the glass is in the front area, on either side of the engine. My suggestion is that, instead of blocking the camera movements, just put an extra invisible object in the forward part of the cockpit, outside the glass. Put the normals on inverted, so that whenever the pilot tries to cheat, they get a black screen instead. 

 

6. Typing in the chat is an important part of IL-2. War Thunder did get around it with quick radio commands. Of course, we could make macros for our joysticks, but still, keyboard is important. Typing while wearing a headset is difficult to say the least. You can "find" certain keys, such as the spacebar, arrow keys, F keys easily, but once you get into the middle area, oh boy....   So here's my suggestion. Allow us to press a key/button to enable "double-press". Any letter or number we press, while in that mode, would just flash the key on screen (or blink it in the chat). Double tapping it within 1 second (settable) would actually type it in the chat. 

[Wolferl_1791]

Even if not a final implementation, this will open the VR doors for BoX. Does anyone know when the next iteration of Vive or OR is due out? I'll wait for the next model - hoping for the end of this year.

If I may, don't hold your breath. The next generation of HMDs (better LOD, better resolution, wireless, eye tracking, selective supersampling etc.) won't come out for 2 or 3 years. Whatever headsets will come out in the meantime will just play the "cheaper" route. There is good reason for that: the power of our computers. Vive and Oculus could make a 8K 180 degree FOV HMD today. But no computer would be able to play it. Each generation of processor and GPU usually brings about 30-50% better performance. So you need to wait at least 2 generations (GTX 1280-1380) to get a proper PC for the next generation of helmets. This is why I bought my Vive as soon as it appeared. The longer you wait, the more it makes sense to skip this generation of VR. I didn't want to

Edited March 6, 2017 by karamazovnew

[FlyingNutcase]

If I may, don't hold your breath. The next generation of HMDs (better LOD, better resolution, wireless, eye tracking, selective supersampling etc.) won't come out for 2 or 3 years. Whatever headsets will come out in the meantime will just play the "cheaper" route. There is good reason for that: the power of our computers. Vive and Oculus could make a 8K 180 degree FOV HMD today. But no computer would be able to play it. Each generation of processor and GPU usually brings about 30-50% better performance. So you need to wait at least 2 generations (GTX 1280-1380) to get a proper PC for the next generation of helmets. This is why I bought my Vive as soon as it appeared. The longer you wait, the more it makes sense to skip this generation of VR. I didn't want to

 

Disappointing but it's good to know the facts. Thanks for the reply.

[Lusekofte]

Looks great! Cant wait for the Il2

 

This was my initial thought too, but I thought we got the IL 2 3m with sweat back wings . And as I can see it we aint, meaning no special difference other than visual to what we got.

 

Regarding VR , I am glad it will come, I do not think will have a edge in dogfight or spotting. Personally I think I will invest in a new Rig , and a high resolution curved screen first, then buy a OR used and cheap as a secondary thingy. I am member of many forums and groups, I know many who has VR but go back to panels , gauges and such.  So getting VR means simply to me that more people will be satisfied, and that is a good thing.

Edited March 6, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Juri_JS]

This was my initial thought too, but I thought we got the IL 2 3m with sweat back wings . And as I can see it we aint, meaning no special difference other than visual to what we got.

I had also hoped we would get the version with the swept wings. Does anybody now when exactly the swept wings were introduced? Moreover I would like to know, if the BoK Il-2 already has the AM-38F engine and the VYa-23 as standard armament.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Juri_JS

[216th_Jordan]

This was my initial thought too, but I thought we got the IL 2 3m with sweat back wings . And as I can see it we aint, meaning no special difference other than visual to what we got.

 

 

Well it will have a UBT, a canopy for the gunner and a better engine That makes a bit up for it

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Well it will have a UBT, a canopy for the gunner and a better engine That makes a bit up for it

It should also have effect on handling qualities. If I'm not mistaken this configuration was the one with the highest ratio of takeoff accidents following the dangerous backshift of the CoG (which later lead to the introduction of swept back wings).

[216th_Jordan]

It should also have effect on handling qualities. If I'm not mistaken this configuration was the one with the highest ratio of takeoff accidents following the dangerous backshift of the CoG (which later lead to the introduction of swept back wings).

Sure. The 42 Model is already bad in that regard, but I don't think it will be so much worse (or lets say hope)..

[HunDread]

I'm excited to try VR in BOX, but I see myself going back to screen after the initial amazement fades.

Even though I havent fired up a racing sim without VR since 2014, I think the cons may be more apparent in a flight sim. By cons I mean low res and that I cannot imagine I can check my six in VR (and it's harder to drink my beer too)

 

I can also imagine a middle ground: flying bombers in VR and flying fighters on screen.

 

With that said, thanks a lot for the devs to give me the chance to try VR.

[Brano]

Nice work devs!

 

Looks like the Il-2 1943 pilots cannot open up their cockpits anymore without the gunner's canopy going overboard! They'll have to get used to the reduced visibility from the huge armour plates - no more sliding back the canopy to get more visibility. 

 

I'm hyped for the Spit and its Merlin's pur!

Pilots canopy opens rearwards independantly from gunners sidewards. They dont interfere with each other.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Brano

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

For neck pain use swivel chair or wait no this is mechanical cheat

 

BTW Fighting in vr is not competitive to monitor. I and my team mates used vr for about three weeks and now this expensive gadget is gathering dust. But we gonna try it in bos for sure, I'd hope it last for longer...

Edited March 6, 2017 by 307_Tomcat