6./ZG26_Gielow Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Classic case of Turret's Syndrome. I'll get my coat... Classic case of I cannot handle two engines syndrome. I'll take some vacine just in case.
BraveSirRobin Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Ok, Jason. Thanks. It is very unfortunate though, as flying SP is all I ever wanted from BO* and the AI ganging up on the player makes it less and less enjoyable for me. I'm at the point of not flying any campaign (including PWCG) due to this. I sincerely hope you will reconsider this aspect of the AI. The AI doesn't gang up on the player. You just have to change your tactics.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 The AI doesn't gang up on the player. You just have to change your tactics. It may not be intended or specifically instructed via code but in all practicality, it does.
216th_Jordan Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 It does because you are flight leader. And thats in the code If you could fly as a wingman you would be lower priority.
Yogiflight Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 I had this experience, too. Then I changed my tactics, and didn't directly attack the russian fighters, when they arrived, but started to climb and circle above them. Since then they hardly ever concentrate on me. And I can attack them where i get them. Only when they were able to shoot down all my wingmen, or, what happens much more often, one or two of them crash and the russian fighters get the remaining, only then they go for me. 2
Medicated Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Based on how Jason has been handling things since he took over, I am sure he listens to the complaints and knows that AI decision making would be nice to rework. I'm certainly not a programmer so I have no idea how involved that is, but based on years of gaming, getting great AI is very difficult. So I'm sure it would take a lot of resources (mainly time) that has been prioritized elsewhere. I'm hoping that with the new direction this game is going that it becomes more popular and gets more support. Then the team can get bigger = tweak more things for the better! Either way, I'm greatly looking forward to all these changes and BoK!
curiousGamblerr Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 ...I'm certainly not a programmer so I have no idea how involved that is... And even if you were, you would still have no idea without seeing their code. Don't let anyone on this forum (or any other game forum) suggest any differently.
unreasonable Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 I had this experience, too. Then I changed my tactics, and didn't directly attack the russian fighters, when they arrived, but started to climb and circle above them. Since then they hardly ever concentrate on me. And I can attack them where i get them. Only when they were able to shoot down all my wingmen, or, what happens much more often, one or two of them crash and the russian fighters get the remaining, only then they go for me. +1 I try to get the flight into an advantageous position and then set my wingmen on the enemy. Once they are engaged, you can do the Hartmann and ID and kill the distracted enemy. Works just as well if you are flying Soviet.
BraveSirRobin Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 It may not be intended or specifically instructed via code but in all practicality, it does. It doesn't if you use the right tactics. The AI never ganged up on me. Use the friendly AI as bait. 1
LLv24_Zami Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Recently I have been flying those excellent scripted campaigns. I haven't had any trouble in those missions with this AI ganging issue. I have seen it before in PWCG for example but for some reason it has been gone now. Quite confusing.. Those campaigns are very entertaining by the way, I recommend everyone to give them a try if you like SP. Thanks for everyone who build those campaigns for us! Is there any eta for 2.007? This week maybe?
216th_Jordan Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 And even if you were, you would still have no idea without seeing their code. Don't let anyone on this forum (or any other game forum) suggest any differently. While I generally agree, in this case Han stated that AI does prioritize flight leaders (See last teamspeak event), and that would make sense to me, even irl. what this means in detail is another thing of course. personally I never had many problems with it.
unreasonable Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Changing tactics to just find a way around what I consider a deficiency in the AI is not a good solution in my opinion. It is not an ideal solution - but given that it is the only solution if you want to play SP it seems pretty good to me. Especially since the recommended tactics to deal with the issue are also the tactics recommended in RL by some fighter experts! To be fair to BoS, almost all SP games have issues with AI that become apparent the more you play. They are either too dumb, or have gimmicky advantages to make up for their stupidity. BoS seems pretty well balanced to me at the moment.
Riderocket Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Remember guys, the FW190 isn't getting a "brand new" FM, just a revised one. It won't be a whole new learning experience, it'll just be less aggressive in the stall (from what I read in the DD)
Yogiflight Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 But the point, Pinko points on, is absolutely correct. You have AI, who simply don't care, what their duty is. Bombers and ground attack aircrafts, that don't care at all about their ground targets, fighters, that simply turn away from the bombers, they should escort or when i fly intercept missions with fighters, my wingmen attack the escort and when it is gone, they simply follow me instead of attacking the bombers, I really have to order them. Or enemy bombers and ground attackers, where only one of them attacks, while the remainig take their bombs back to the basis.
Matt Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Remember guys, the FW190 isn't getting a "brand new" FM, just a revised one. It won't be a whole new learning experience, it'll just be less aggressive in the stall (from what I read in the DD) It has been changed in so many ways, that it's basically new.
Jade_Monkey Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Should we expect juicy details of a patch today?
LLv24_Zami Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Should we expect juicy details of a patch today? I would say yes: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12826-game-updates/?p=437657
PatrickAWlson Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Based on how Jason has been handling things since he took over, I am sure he listens to the complaints and knows that AI decision making would be nice to rework. I'm certainly not a programmer so I have no idea how involved that is, but based on years of gaming, getting great AI is very difficult. So I'm sure it would take a lot of resources (mainly time) that has been prioritized elsewhere. It is incredibly involved. First you have to teach the AI to perform combat maneuvers. Then you have to program the AI to be aware of when those combat maneuvers would be appropriate. Then you have to program the AI to know the differences between his plane and other planes such that it will choose the best maneuver. Let's say you manage to accomplish all of that (nobody has managed that yet). Now you would have AI that is the ultimate pilot in a 1:1 duel to the death. Now you want to teach teamwork to the AI. Now the AI has to be aware of not only his plane and a single enemy but all planes and their capabilities. The Ai has to understand position and priorities. A maneuver that might have been effective in a 1:1 becomes the wrong decision in a mass dogfight. Team oriented maneuvers like weaves and drag & bag depend on getting multiple AI entities to work in concert with each other. Now that you have AI that can fight as a team and as an individual it's time to give it some common sense. The AI has to know when a fight is going bad and when it should break off. Is it at a terrible E disadvantage? Is it damaged? Is it outnumbered? How should it disengage? Different methods will depend on the plane. What if it can't disengage? Better to fight but howto decide? Get that wrong and users will complain that the AI is a sitting duck because it disengages in a way that makes it an easy target. Go the other way and you get what we have now - basically fearless, near suicidal AI. So now the Ai can fight, fight as a team and disengage. How about tactics? Hit and run? Setting up before the fight? Choosing not to fight at all? Now for a bit of humanity. If you could do all of the above you would have the AI equivalent of Deep Blue. All knowing and all powerful. That would be pretty frustrating. Real pilots make mistakes, don't fly a plane to the edge of its envelope, they miss, the fail to see, they get fixated, etc. Now that you have the perfect AI pilot you have to scale it back to become human ... to become many humans in fact. I would give them til at least June to get there 4
unreasonable Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 But the point, Pinko points on, is absolutely correct. You have AI, who simply don't care, what their duty is. Bombers and ground attack aircrafts, that don't care at all about their ground targets, fighters, that simply turn away from the bombers, they should escort or when i fly intercept missions with fighters, my wingmen attack the escort and when it is gone, they simply follow me instead of attacking the bombers, I really have to order them. Or enemy bombers and ground attackers, where only one of them attacks, while the remainig take their bombs back to the basis. That all might happen sometimes - but after all most of your wing-men have (had) very little combat experience, so no wonder they get confused and panic. You are the boss, get a grip. My recent SP experience - I mean this last few days - I have seen AI attack all kinds of targets with success. I am looking forward to seeing how the new smooth-AI handles itself.
Yogiflight Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Sorry unreasonable, I don't get your point. What has, what I wrote, to do with my wingmen get confused or in panic? When we have the duty to fly escort, then our duty is to fly escort and not attack every enemy aircraft we see. When our duty is intercept bombers, it is to intercept bombers and not kill the escort and let the bombers go. What I am talking about, is that I get a duty and this is absolutely highest priority, it is not fly around and do what you like to do.
unreasonable Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Sorry unreasonable, I don't get your point. What has, what I wrote, to do with my wingmen get confused or in panic? When we have the duty to fly escort, then our duty is to fly escort and not attack every enemy aircraft we see. When our duty is intercept bombers, it is to intercept bombers and not kill the escort and let the bombers go. What I am talking about, is that I get a duty and this is absolutely highest priority, it is not fly around and do what you like to do. My point is that you may think this is your duty, but actually RL was rarely as neat and tidy as that. Real pilots were not automatons - if they were felt under attack by the escorts some of them would have turned away from the bombers. Escorts often left bombers to chase enemy fighters well past the point they were no longer a threat. If you want your whole flight to attack bombers you have to get them nice and close to the bombers before the escort can close then give the attack enemy air command. Some of your flight at least will attack the bombers. At least mine did this morning. What I am saying is that we all know the AI is not perfect, but if you use the order menu properly and use your imagination a little, it is not as bad as some people here are making out. I have been playing SP for the last couple of weeks and so far I have not seen much that seems obviously wrong in escort, intercept and ground attack missions. My only suggestion for improvement at this point is that damaged planes should try to break off and RTB sooner than they do. That kind of tweak at least should not take much coding work.
Ala13_knightcrow Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 Hello, Any news for us with a Nvidia 780 getting blakscreens when using updated Nvidia drivers and BOS 2006c? maybe 2007 has touched anything that could have solved this issue? (Even when everyone is waiting for NVIDIA staff to implement a new DRIVER eventually that could solve it...) Kind regards, Ala13_knightcrow (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26988-calling-780s-owners-find-real-solution-update-2006-and-nvidi/)
Yogiflight Posted January 31, 2017 Posted January 31, 2017 OK unreasonable, now I got your point. But you misunderstood me. What I was talking about, was the situation, the escort is either shot down or just turned away. So it is only the bombers and we, and if I do not order my wingmen to attack, they simply fly behind me, without attacking the bombers, it is the same, what happens when I fly ground attacks with 109 or 110, my wingmen follow me instead of attacking targets.
BraveSirRobin Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 Changing tactics to just find a way around what I consider a deficiency in the AI is not a good solution in my opinion. Except it's not a deficiency in the AI. It's programmed to go after the most serious threat. That isn't a deficiency, that is what you expect a combat pilot to do. So don't make yourself the most serious threat until the enemy AI is focused on the friendly AI. We do that all the time in MP. You bait someone into going after an "easy" target, then the cover arrives and kills the fixated pilot. The only difference is that the AI does not know that it's being used as bait.
BraveSirRobin Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 Who says I am the most serious threat? I don't know the details of the threat algorithm, but I know for certain that it doesn't target the human player. Fly less aggressively. Use friendly AI as bait. Either way, they're not going to make any changes to prevent AI from targeting the human player, because they can't. It does not target the human player now. You have to adjust your tactics. I don't want to just get kills by gaming the AI, I want to be able to focus on the objective. Then you will probably have to play MP, because AI that can't be "gamed" probably won't exist in our lifetime.
Danziger Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 If I get singled out by the AI in SP it's usually because my AI wingman flew off somewhere else to attack bombers and left me on my own. I was testing the 190 last night in QMB with 2x190 vs 4xMiG and 4xPe2 and I engaged the fighters with my wingman and we were keeping them busy. Suddenly I see tracers and look back to find his MiGs shooting at me. He was flying off toward the bomber formation as soon as it popped into view. I killed all of the MiGs but the last one killed my engine.
BraveSirRobin Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 But do you think it is acceptable, and as it is/was in real life that 4 of 4 should target one aircraft? I've never had that happen to me. In any case, the AI is going to suck no matter what they do. If they figure out a way to get some aircraft to ignore high threat enemy if they're already engaged, the AI will just find some other stupid thing to do that you will complain about. Btw, I've read stories by Luftwaffe pilots about being chased by as many as 8 P-51s. Maybe they were all AI...
AstrixAU Posted February 2, 2017 Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Hi Han, Thanks for the update, I was hoping you guys would fix the Fullscreen tearing issue in cockpit view. Freesync hasn't worked in fullscreen since 2006. I have my refresh rate set to 144hz and if I choose Vsync in game in fullscreen it caps my FPS at 60fps for some reason not the 144 like my refresh rate. Even with vsync off the map section just before going into the quick match my fps is caped at 60 but when I spawn into my plane it un caps my fps it goes back to 144fps, in borderless it's always 144fps, not sure if that is connected to the underlying cause. I have been using borderless as I can play without tearing at 144fps with Vsync off in game but I have issues recording and sometimes the performance isn't as good as Fullscreen specially when trying to record. I used to record 1440p 60fps with relive in fullscreen without any performance hit, borderless I usually have to give up on recording. There are some people also affected who use Gsync in fullscreen but then there are some that say Gsync is working in fullscreen, very weird. Are you guys working on the fix for fullscreen? I am running 16.12.1 it seems the best on 2006 I tried AMD radeon driver 17.1.2 yesterday not sure if I was running 2007 but I assume I was and if you bring up the relive overlay while recording your fps drops to under 10fps and it stutters really bad. 16.12.1 doesn't have the issue and is why I have been using 16.12.1. I have a bug report in the technical section below. https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26782-bug-freesync-not-working-fullscreen-2006c/ My Setup: Windows 10 64bit Radeon Crimson ReLive 16.12.1 ASUS Maximus VI Formula - BIOS 1603 i7 4770K - OC 4.5Ghz AMD R9 Fury X 4GB HBM BenQ XL2730Z - 2560x1440p 144hz Freesync (Freesync range 40-144hz) Kingston HyperX 16GB 1600Mhz DDR3 Seasonic 1000w 80 plus Platnum Thanks for the new update and great to see the FW190 is fixed congrats on getting that updated. I am really looking forward to play in fullscreen again. Edited February 2, 2017 by =WFPK=astrix_au
Kurfurst Posted February 3, 2017 Posted February 3, 2017 The details of the He 111 is lovely. Its very much a joy to finally see a proper and flyable mid-war Heinkel in the sim, without the usual H-3 and H-6 step-ins from 1940... Great work guys!
Scojo Posted February 3, 2017 Posted February 3, 2017 but to regularly find four 109s strung out behind me with them showing no interest in the bombers they need to escort To be fair, in the book I've been recently reading about an IL-2 pilot he describes a mission in which they had fighter escort and when a German recon plane passes them he expresses enthusiastic disbelief that his escort didn't leave him to shoot down the recon plane. He also goes on to say that Russian fighters were rewarded extra money for each kill they acquired. Obviously from this one pilot, you can't make an overall assumption about all fighters through the whole war, but I feel it's something to think about
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