Why does AI control surfaces move like fish tail

[screamingdemon]

Guys

 

Is there something wrong with my installation? Outside view all AI control surfaces move like fish tail?

Edited January 21, 2017 by screamingdemon

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Guys

 

Is there something wrong with my installation? Outside view all AI control surfaces move like fish tail?

 

They do this, their AI hands and feet are feeded by perfect brain calculation to catch all lift forces and use it to avoid yours gunsight pointing on them and they do it in floating point precision

BTW i saw them doing the same things in information flying to stay behind you

[screamingdemon]

Thanks Tomcat 

 

Will look prettier if t those "floating precision points" inputs are filtered so  the control surfaces at least appear to move like human operator i think?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Thanks Tomcat 

 

Will look prettier if t those "floating precision points" inputs are filtered so  the control surfaces at least appear to move like human operator i think?

Of course

[Sokol1]

This is because AI is modeled using Saitek's sticks for control their planes. 

[Jade_Monkey]

there is definitely a lot of room for improvement in that department.

 

Also AI behavior when you are behind them, they flop around in a really annoying way.

[JG4_Sputnik]

Yup, that is also something I only see in BoS. If you follow an AI plane with the extern camera it does look like a the pilot has a seizure. It wobbles and wiggles and I think it shouldn't.

[Finkeren]

Yup, that is also something I only see in BoS. If you follow an AI plane with the extern camera it does look like a the pilot has a seizure. It wobbles and wiggles and I think it shouldn't.

 

Of course it shouldn't. But it's also an artifact of having the AI use the exact same FM as we do. The AI in BoX is flying something much more complex than in most other flight sims.

[Blutaar]

It should be not that difficult to implement a dampening effect to there movements i think but what do i know.

It looks like someone is flying with rapid key presses, reminds me on a time far far behind where i played Gran Turismo on the first Playstation with that standard controller with just buttons, no sticks. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ishtaru

[Gambit21]

Of course it shouldn't. But it's also an artifact of having the AI use the exact same FM as we do. The AI in BoX is flying something much more complex than in most other flight sims.

Yep - but the AI is making too many decisions/too often. The AI copilot in the Ju52 looks like he's operating some kind of hand pump if you go to 8X.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Gambit21

[Matt]

It's because the AI has view restrictions. It can't see you directly behind him when you're in a blind spot, then when it notices you it tries to turn and when you enter a blind spot again, it levels out, then sees you again (or notices that you shoot at him) and tries to turn again etc.

 

It doesn't remember that you're behind him, when he can't see you.

[Gambit21]

I don't think that's the entire explanation Matt - the reason being the Ju52 example. In level flight no less.

[smink1701]

Yeah, the IA flopping really needs to be addressed.

[Skoop]

+1, the way the AI flies and spots needs some work.

[smink1701]

Next update will fix it ... me hopes!!!

[Apache600]

Only for the A.I.?  I got shot up online last night in a 109 and it forced me into some wild and uncontrolled tail slides.  I accelerated to get away, and succeeded in that.  But as time went on, the fish tailing just got worse and worse.  Nose oscillations of 30 degrees left and right of course.   The only way I was able to land, was to roll the plane, and pull on some heavy G's.  That, for some reason, reduced the fish tailing for long enough to fly a final approach.   

[Gambit21]

We're not talking about damaged player controlled aircraft here. Rather a specific AI flight behavior.

[Scojo]

What does he mean? Flapping rudder back and forth constantly?

[Gambit21]

It's not just the rudder.

Watch your Ju52 Co-Pilot and the plane itself on autopilot and on 8X in level flight - the pilot looks like he's operating a hand pump of some sort while the aircraft flops through the air like a porpoise. I imagine the devs are on it though...not worried.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Gambit21

[SAG]

It's not just the rudder.

Watch your Ju52 Co-Pilot and the plane itself on autopilot and on 8X in level flight - the pilot looks like he's operating a hand pump of some sort while the aircraft flops through the air like a porpoise. I imagine the devs are on it though...not worried.

 

didnt they say that AI behavior will be much smoother with the next update (and also less CPU intensive)?

[Scojo]

Here ya go!

[Cpt_Branko]

Can't wait, been doing some single player and it breaks immersion seeing the AI have a seizure

[BlitzPig_EL]

Ever watched the control surfaces of one of the new generation fly by wire fighters doing low speed maneuvers at an airshow?

 

It looks exactly like what the AI does in the sim.  Constant micro, or major, corrections and movements of the control surfaces, yet the aircraft is totally smooth and stable.   It was one of the most interesting things to watch an F22 do.

 

This is probably one of the hardest things to get right in any sim.  To program the computer to not operate the vehicle in question perfectly in all regimes.  It's why the AI are faster than you, can turn better than you, and can make insane deflection shots better than you, and never overheat or blow their engines whilst doing so.

[Scojo]

Ever watched the control surfaces of one of the new generation fly by wire fighters doing low speed maneuvers at an airshow?

 

It looks exactly like what the AI does in the sim.  Constant micro, or major, corrections and movements of the control surfaces, yet the aircraft is totally smooth and stable.   It was one of the most interesting things to watch an F22 do.

It is beautiful, isn't it?

 

This is the exact case that solidified my choice of Electrical Engineering. In Feedback my professor frequently used the scenario of flight instability and forcing stability via the use of electronic and computer feedback through control surfaces as examples in his lectures.

 

Another good example, though not easily noticed from outside viewing is the B-2 Spirit.

[Blutaar]

Its not an ai who flys the Raptor its the pilot whos input on the stick gets translated into electric signals and the computer interprets this movements and translate it into the right amount of controlsurface deflection so that the pilot not overflys the complex instable aircraft, without fly by wire the plane would just be uncontrollable or to much to do for the pilot to have time for other things than flying the aircraft.

Im sure its not 100% right but this was always how I understand fly bye wire, and i think its no to far off.

I really think its the pilot who makes fast little deflections because he can, its way faster then cables or rods like we have it in our sim, its just bad AI behavior which gets fixed and has nothing to do with computer unable to do soft and small movements.

Look at some industriel robots or modern and future protheses, they can be really smooth and soft but also precise and fast.

 

The AI in our sim will be like now for a long time, the devs dont see this as a important thing on there to do list, jason himself said that we just get a fix for that special behavior, not an AI overhaul, sadly, thats why im stopped to pay anything from now on, they dont wanna take money in to there hands to make a good AI, so the majority of people have to pay so that 100 people online can get a fun game, why should i pay for it, im a SP guy so this game is dead for me.

[Scojo]

Its not an ai who flys the Raptor its the pilot whos input on the stick gets translated into electric signals and the computer interprets this movements and translate it into the right amount of controlsurface deflection so that the pilot not overflys the complex instable aircraft, without fly by wire the plane would just be uncontrollable or to much to do for the pilot to have time for other things than flying the aircraft.

Im sure its not 100% right but this was always how I understand fly bye wire, and i think its no to far off.

I really think its the pilot who makes fast little deflections because he can, its way faster then cables or rods like we have it in our sim, its just bad AI behavior which gets fixed and has nothing to do with computer unable to do soft and small movements.

Look at some industriel robots or modern and future protheses, they can be really smooth and soft but also precise and fast.

 

The AI in our sim will be like now for a long time, the devs dont see this as a important thing on there to do list, jason himself said that we just get a fix for that special behavior, not an AI overhaul, sadly, thats why im stopped to pay anything from now on, they dont wanna take money in to there hands to make a good AI, so the majority of people have to pay so that 100 people online can get a fun game, why should i pay for it, im a SP guy so this game is dead for me.

The pilot controls the overall flight of the craft and makes some major corrections, yes, however computer and electronic feedback make minute and sometimes major corrections as well to keep the aircraft stable through many maneuvers that the plane otherwise wouldn't be able to do at all or without an extremely experienced pilot.

 

Another major benefit to this, especially in a dogfight context, is that allowing the control system of the aircraft to make corrections to keep the craft stable also removes some of the responsibility from the pilot so that they are free to pay attention to other matters that electronics and computers can't currently account for such as making judgment calls on how to maneuver the aircraft in that combat context to gain the advantage on an opponent.

 

Note: I'm using "major" and "minor" terms relative to what a control system would consider major and minor. Unlike a human, a computer or electronic feedback loop can very quickly identify a very minute change and also very minutely and quickly adjust compared to a human.

Edited January 31, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[Scojo]

Another form of feedback that might be easier to understand is the use of gyros in RC aircraft to reduce the effects of wind. The person at the controls still flies the plane, but the gyros sense the plane being pushed by the wind and counter that push with the appropriate control surface changes so that the pilot doesn't have to make those corrections on the transmitter side.

[BlitzPig_EL]

NO human pilot could make the kinds of corrections that happen in the modern gen fighters.

 

The pilot is in many ways more like a ship captain now.  He tells his "crew" where he wants to go and then the "crew" (the flight control computer network in the aircraft) makes all the controls do what is necessary to carry out the pilot's orders.

 

As I said, it's astonishing to see happen in front of you.

 

Seeing a very large F22 turn a tighter circle on the deck than a much smaller F16, which is a very nimble aircraft in it's own right is just mind blowing.

[Scojo]

The pilot is in many ways more like a ship captain now.  He tells his "crew" where he wants to go and then the "crew" (the flight control computer network in the aircraft) makes all the controls do what is necessary to carry out the pilot's orders.

That's a really great way of describing the relationship

[Blutaar]

The computer just interprets the signals to the correct controlsurface deflection, thats what i said, of course its not the hole picture but true anyway.

So i was not that far away with what i said, it has nothing to do with the behavior like we see in game, its just a bad AI and will be changed by now? i think.

Im not sure if these rapid deflections are not synchron with the pilots stickmovement and that it is just the computer who makes that but what we clearly can see is that it does not result in a whobble like ingame AI planes do because it has nothing to do with computers are bad in such things, or lets call that AI for that case so you know what i mean.

I dont mean it offensive so pls dont get me wrong, im bad in english so i have sometimes trouble to write exactly how i mean it, sry for that.

[BlitzPig_EL]

No offense taken sir.

 

It's an interesting discussion.

 

The AI don't wobble because they can make corrections so much faster than a human with a joystick can.   The AI is not that animated person in the cockpit, it is the game engine itself, acting directly on the control surfaces, it does not move a virtual "joystick" at all.

 

We try to personify the AI all the time in games, but it simply is not the way it works.