Developer Diary, Part 145 - Discussion

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

What REALLY puzzles me in this thread is how you can take what Gavrick ACTUALLY wrote in the DD - which to my eyes is wholly positive - and construct something negative out of it. It's an amazing act of interpretive distortion in many ways - almost like you lot want to keep inhabiting your own little bubble of Fw-related pain and misery and nothing will bring you out of it.

 

Once again Kwiatek - you can only interpret what Gavrick actually said in the way you do by discounting completely the bit about it 'corresponding to the historical data'!!??

 

It's probably really foolish of me to post this in this thread but it just amazes me really. And I post not in defense of devs or against getting the Fw 'right' - really right - but solely because of the distorted logic and evidence-free reasoning in here.

 

Anyway, won't post again in here. And hope I haven't offended anyone, but guys....really...get a grip!

This x100. I'm totally with ya. Way too much "woe is me" regarding this post. Kinda crazy how so many create their own confirmation bias based upon a thread which is announcing a long sought after FM change. If I were the dev's I'd just close the door slowly and put out the lights. They've gone back. Let's see what we have before pushing back this much.

[303_Kwiatek]

What if A-3 after fix would really need 500m and 18 sec to lift off ( ground take off roll distance) when RL German data show 300-350m ( depend of runway surface). It would mean that again Fw 190 A-3 is lack of acceleration at low speed.

 

According "historical data" - whats these mean? German data and specification ( which i attached in these thread) or VVS test of captured FW 190 A-4?

 

Really we need after all another thousend of topic about Fw 190 FM issues?

 

I think now is best time to make it at once in good and accurate way which stop and cut futher FM discussion about these plane.

 

Its very nice that Gavric share with us with his work with Fw 190 flight model but it would be nice much more if he would make futher efforts to make all these things right to the end. Really it is so much trouble to stay in topic and answer some simple question to cut futher devagations?

Edited January 24, 2017 by 303_Kwiatek

[Irgendjemand]

Agree. Simple statement on kwiateks matter could prevent further discussion.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Oh, I seriously doubt that.......................

[Caudron431]

This x100. I'm totally with ya. Way too much "woe is me" regarding this post. Kinda crazy how so many create their own confirmation bias based upon a thread which is announcing a long sought after FM change. If I were the dev's I'd just close the door slowly and put out the lights. They've gone back. Let's see what we have before pushing back this much.

Perhaps it is less the Fw190A3 pain syndrom than a way to look like someone really important in this community. You know a kind of half-über, half-unfairly treaten members that know better.

They need the devs attention to them so badly, less to solve a problem than to ease some ego-related issue it seems. They just cannot let it go and see what is coming.

 

I cannot wait to see what will happen once the 190 FM is fixed (oh wait it can't be, devs can't possibly do that by themselves without them, noooooooo...)

Edited January 24, 2017 by Yak9Micha

[Art]

Perhaps it is less the Fw190A3 pain syndrom than a way to look like someone really important in this community. You know a kind of half-über, half-unfairly treaten members that know better.

They need the devs attention to them so badly, less to solve a problem than to ease some ego-related issue it seems. They just cannot let it go and see what is coming.

 

I cannot wait to see what will happen once the 190 FM is fixed (oh wait it can't be, devs can't possibly do that by themselves without them, noooooooo...)

Stupid comment rly...  

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Oh, I seriously doubt that.......................

 

Seriously, though... a simple, non-committal "We'll look in to it." would go pretty far for a lot of the dead-horse issues that the community endlessly beats.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Trying to wrap up what happened.

 

1) DD Diary about FW 190

2) Someone finds statement made kinda strange -> Look I have a data sheet that might help devs in case they are misinterpreting something (What an awesome community!) - can you tell us how to interpret statement XY?

 

3)Enter the Luftwhiners -> WE DEMAND AN ANSWER NOW

4)Enter the Anti FW Squad -> not the FW again!! ?(What an awesome community!)? NO STOP POSTING INFO, YOU STILL NOT SATISFIED, ??? WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES!!!

5)Enter the Devs -> We do not answer any questions. It´s not our job   :D

6)Enter the personal insult specialists -> plenty of examples

 

And everybody shows their best side again...

 

 

Seriously a little more interaction from the Devs would not hurt this forum.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

On a slightly more positive note, some interesting info from Petrovich on the russian thread regarding future FM works: Link to original Post

True, this is only an opinion poll.
None of the developers no promises here is not given)), but I personally, for example, was always interesting to know what "breathes" community.
And judging by here this survey - my feeling is the same as the expectation of the majority of voters. I also think that most priorities are now correcting the reaction on the pedal and model the physiological condition of the pilot. If it is possible to plan the work so that they are together in 2.5 months - there is a chance that we'll do it. If push nevpihuemoe not work - we will do something else. In any case, the final decision of the producer, that is Jason.

Edited January 24, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[curiousGamblerr]

 

 

model the physiological condition of the pilot

 

This is already modeled by my hands shaking and heart pumping every time I'm sneaking up on a Stuka  

 

More seriously, can anyone give a better idea what is meant by 5tuka's quote? I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly. Is the part about "correcting the reaction on the pedal" referring to the devs plan to decrease the roll associated with rudder?

[Gambit21]

There's translation issues there.

I think that means input in general in relation to pilot condition

[303_Kwiatek]

Trying to wrap up what happened.

 

1) DD Diary about FW 190

2) Someone finds statement made kinda strange -> Look I have a data sheet that might help devs in case they are misinterpreting something (What an awesome community!) - can you tell us how to interpret statement XY?

 

3)Enter the Luftwhiners -> WE DEMAND AN ANSWER NOW

4)Enter the Anti FW Squad -> not the FW again!! ?(What an awesome community!)? NO STOP POSTING INFO, YOU STILL NOT SATISFIED, ??? WE HAVE MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES!!!

5)Enter the Devs -> We do not answer any questions. It´s not our job   :D

6)Enter the personal insult specialists -> plenty of examples

 

And everybody shows their best side again...

 

 

Seriously a little more interaction from the Devs would not hurt this forum.

 

Good points

[Brano]

There's translation issues there.

I think that means input in general in relation to pilot condition

Andrey is referring to the poll.Top 2 issues users want to be addressed from DD120 list are:

 

10. Additional research of airplane sideslip angle influence on plane roll;

 

19. Develop more sophisticated high-G effects system so it will affect plane crew depending on their weariness, oxygen amount, wounds, etc.

 

And he agrees with that. If it would fit in the time window he has (2.5 months) it should be doable. If not,they will do smtg else.The poll is just informative,because Andrey is and always was interested in what hardcore simmers want. But at the end decision maker is the producer = Jason.

[Gambit21]

Thank you Brano.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

There's translation issues there. I think that means input in general in relation to pilot condition

Or could it mean incorporating some kind of fatigue effects for the pilot?  The physical demands of say flying a 109 over a 190?

[Gambit21]

That's what I mean

[StG2_Manfred]

Thx for translation Brano! Very appreciated (and interesting).

[Brano]

There was a discussion about some Il-2 users practicing defensive maneuvers (quick banking left/right) which should be unlikely in real. V.Barsuk in his video interview says,that with speed around 300km/h it is necessary to use both hands to bank 30°. And there are ofcourse other examples how virtual pilots can abuse a/c controls with the "Terminator" hand. Topic may be extended to blackout issues = not very well pronounced,pilot keeps full control etc and it can end up with "owl head" syndrom,where implementation of simple spine and neck camera would improve realism while moving your virtual head in the cockpit.Very interesting topic.

 

Both points,10 and 19,are in good balance. One address the plane behaviour and second pilots physiology. Because it is combo of machine and man that makes it the deadly tool of war

Edited January 24, 2017 by Brano

[Jason_Williams]

Guys,

 

Its very simple. Petrovich has only a couple months to work on certain items in DD 120. I have not decided which he should work on. It's my decision as Producer after I discuss the matter more with Han and Petrovich. Some in the Russian community want to push us so there were a couple community polls. That's all that was discussed really. Nothing much different than here. 

 

Jason 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Thank you for the clarification.

[curiousGamblerr]

Thanks all for the clarification!

[tailwheel]

Jason it is good that Gavrick write DD about Fw190 fixes  very nice.  I think most here want Fw 190 FM fix once time to accurate level as possible ( e.x. like Yak-1s level - which never saw had problem with underperformacne in these game )

 

But i really don't understand what is a problem answer some very simple question about acceleration during take off Fw 190?  As You see i posted very detailed info  about acceleration of RL Fw 190 A-3 ( A-5)  during taking off and Gavric could compare these with his FM revision. I saw Gavric read these topic and probably he made his own conlusion about these but really i dont see what is a problem to write a few words about these here? It could be really also nice to see such response. I think that most here really want to avoid another Fw 190 FM issues to stop these never ending discussion in the future.

 Good shop procedures: have business analysts interface with clients on feedback and return that data to tech dev team. Better utilization of resources, keeps dev from getting bogged down or unduly distracted. Also reduces stress level on dev from client.  Reduces 'chatter'.    Great to hear about the 190 fixes and I would assume that if you are going to put effort into a dev mod then using all appropriate data and specs would only be logical.  This game is awesome!  S!

[Grancesc]

 Good shop procedures: have business analysts interface with clients on feedback and return that data to tech dev team. Better utilization of resources, keeps dev from getting bogged down or unduly distracted. Also reduces stress level on dev from client.  Reduces 'chatter'.    Great to hear about the 190 fixes and I would assume that if you are going to put effort into a dev mod then using all appropriate data and specs would only be logical.  This game is awesome!  S!

 

Very wisely said. It is only to be hoped that the decision-makers have understood the message. I'm with you Canadian pilot.

[Asgar]

ok, lets forget all that stuff about FM and the Focke Wulf and ask the important questions: Will we get the Bf 110 G-2 this week?

[Dutchvdm]

ok, lets forget all that stuff about FM and the Focke Wulf and ask the important questions: Will we get the Bf 110 G-2 this week?

 

Good question. But i think it will be Monday. 

 

I hope i'm wrong

 

Grt M

[Asgar]

they can still beat Leatherneck and their Viggen   and don't tell me it's not a race, it is now!

[216th_Jordan]

The results of the inofficial polls puzzle me a little though. I thought fuel system enhancement would be highest ranking by far...

[Dutchvdm]

The results of the inofficial polls puzzle me a little though. I thought fuel system enhancement would be highest ranking by far...

 

I agree with you. I would really like that too.

 

Grt M

Edited January 25, 2017 by I./ZG1_Martijnvdm

[Asgar]

yeah...i want that too, also external tanks pls

[Dutchvdm]

yeah...i want that too, also external tanks pls

 

More options is always nice, but which planes will actually profit from this on the big enough, but not really big maps? The only one that i can think of is the 109. Other planes have a range that is somewhere around 1000 km or more , or didn't have the ability to carry them.

 

Grt M

[Asgar]

recon in the Bf 110

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The results of the inofficial polls puzzle me a little though. I thought fuel system enhancement would be highest ranking by far...

Well I'm equally unsuprised and glad the relation of rudder and roll is highly prioritizeds. It's not only effecting the general aircraft's behaviour but also performence (roll rate/acceleration) significantly.

 

As for the physiology model, well that's arguably less important for flying than modeling fuel tanks proprely but if it adds imersion and makes air combat more realistic I wouldn't say worse.

Edited January 25, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Mac_Messer]

Thank you for your work. Regardless of how the Anton flies after the revision, I am thankful that the team has acknowledged constructive posts and actually took the time.

[Trooper117]

recon in the Bf 110

 

Ha!... but could you live long enough in the 110 to warrant carrying the things

[216th_Jordan]

Well I'm equally unsuprised and glad the relation of rudder and roll is highly prioritizeds. It's not only effecting the general aircraft's behaviour but also performence (roll rate/acceleration) significantly.

 

As for the physiology model, well that's arguably less important for flying than modeling fuel tanks proprely but if it adds imersion and makes air combt more realistic I wouldn't say worse.

 

Sure but yaw induced roll rework has already been confirmed for 2017 I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited January 25, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[150GCT_Veltro]

Sure but yaw induced roll rework has already been confirmed for 2017 I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, but it should have to be an high priority i think. The "wobbing" behaviour is really exaggerated, first of all in the 109 F/G serie.

 

The addition of fuel tanks ecc. ecc. should have to be a default option for a flight sim, we shouldn't have to ask for it.

 

What we need is the pilot fatigue fo rmy opinion, not only a more advanced G effect (Black / Red screen). I would like have a sort of fatigue "stamina", that you need to recover before perform again high-G manoeuvres. This feature would be a real revolution in the flight sim market.

Edited January 25, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro

[LukeFF]

 

 

The addition of fuel tanks ecc. ecc. should have to be a default option for a flight sim, we shouldn't have to ask for it.

 

Not if the size of the maps doesn't warrant their inclusion, which is the case right now. 

[Gambit21]

The addition of fuel tanks ecc. ecc. should have to be a default option for a flight sim, we shouldn't have to ask for it.

.

...and if I was a developer this post would cause me to put that item at the bottom of my lengthy and growing "to do" list.

[Caudron431]

Stupid comment rly...  

As i can see it reached some of the people aimed: cannot be that stupid with such a good hit rate.

Andrey is referring to the poll.Top 2 issues users want to be addressed from DD120 list are:

 

10. Additional research of airplane sideslip angle influence on plane roll;

 

19. Develop more sophisticated high-G effects system so it will affect plane crew depending on their weariness, oxygen amount, wounds, etc.

 

And he agrees with that. If it would fit in the time window he has (2.5 months) it should be doable. If not,they will do smtg else.The poll is just informative,because Andrey is and always was interested in what hardcore simmers want. But at the end decision maker is the producer = Jason.

Maybe someone fluent in Russian could post a translation and a link so that other members could log in the other boards and vote? That would be very nice!

Edited January 25, 2017 by Yak9Micha

[Jason_Williams]

Your vote has no influence over what we decide to do on these particular items so these polls don't help us much. We know which ones you would prefer (all of them really) and what we do is also heavily influenced on how much time we have to implement them and what resources are available.

 

No drop tanks and more detailed fuel controls was a hold over from ROF design, but remember, I WAS NOT in charge of BOS in the beginning so the decision was made to not build them in the beginning. I hope to get to them eventually, but I can only get there if you support what we already have in the pipe.

 

If I had another engineer I could speed this up, but I can't afford a bigger team. So you have to have patience. Remember I was handed a big challenge and no blank check to do whatever I want with an endless timeframe. What we have laid out is extremely ambitious for what I have to work with. The team is working hard on everything.

 

Jason