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Best convergence for weapons FW190

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Hello everyone. I would like to know which is the most effective convergence used by Fw190 pilots. I have difficulties of shooting shots of greater distances (400metros). I would like to see screenshots of shots from long distances. Please do not turn this blocked topic. Thank you

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A bit off topic, but anyone knows the convergence that pilots used in real life back then in their 190s ? Did they use the same convergence for the inner and outer cannons ? Or did they use different convergence for the MG151s and MGFFs ?

Edited by JAGER_Staiger
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For me my Friend Kampf is 230 to 280, no more ;)

 

Salute and see you in the sky  :pilot:

 

 

who are you and what have you done to my good old 400 metre convergence lothar? :P

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A bit off topic, but anyone knows the convergence that pilots used in real life back then in their 190s ? Did they use the same convergence for the inner and outer cannons ? Or did they use different convergence for the MG151s and MGFFs ?

 

Here is the standard convergence.  It is highly doubtful that it was changed at the whim of individual pilots.  There is a lot that goes into determining convergence and it is only point of aim, point of impact for a specific distance and airspeed set on the chart.  In this case, standard trim set speed for the FW-190 was 500 kph.  There simply was not option for convergence on a slider as depicted in many games.

 

The standard convergence is 200 meters.  Notice the MG17 and MGFF's align at that point as well so you can use the MG17's to determine where the MGFF rounds will land.

 

sfuxom.jpg

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Thank you Crump! Correct me if I'm wrong: they used the same vertical convergence for all guns (400m), but in horizontal plane the MG151s were set at 300m and MGFFs at 200m, and the MG17 no hor. convergence at all ? Did I read your picture/chart wrong ? (I dont speak german btw)

Edited by JAGER_Staiger

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Thank you Crump! Correct me if I'm wrong: they used the same vertical convergence for all guns (400m), but in horizontal plane the MG151s were set at 300m and MGFFs at 200m, and the MG17 no hor. convergence at all ? Did I read your picture/chart wrong ? (I dont speak german btw)

Thats how i read it.

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There was the video with a few german aces and he said he never opened fired further than 75M behind his target..

Like he said if you need more than a single 2 second burst you simply just Missed!!

 

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Thank you Crump! Correct me if I'm wrong: they used the same vertical convergence for all guns (400m), but in horizontal plane the MG151s were set at 300m and MGFFs at 200m, and the MG17 no hor. convergence at all ? Did I read your picture/chart wrong ? (I dont speak german btw)

 

 

Yes and you can see that vertical convergence is ~1/2 the height of fuselage.  In other words, if you put your REVI sight on the spinner of another aircraft at 200 meters, the MG151 would strike the spinner and the MGFF/MG17's the cockpit area.

 

The convergence was really 200 meters.  While the vertical plan does show the all the bullets at the same vertical height at 400 meters, the center of the beaten zone for the MGFF is at the same location on the wing as the muzzle of the opposite wing weapon.  Dispersion will put that round landing somewhere in a rather large circle and has a much larger margin of error.

 

 

There was the video with a few german aces and he said he never opened fired further than 75M behind his target..

 

At 75 meters it would be very deadly.

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i personally find 330 works best. Any lower and hitting targets at reasonable distance when you're not knife-fighting becomes overly difficult and any higher and you will embarrass yourself if you get behind unsuspecting prey... *cough*

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Fw 190 convergence values, per the book values, changed wildly as time went on:

 

For the A-6, quite large horizontal convergence values:

 

post-549-0-78944100-1483342762_thumb.jpgpost-549-0-68083000-1483342764_thumb.jpg

 

And then the A-7/A-8:

 

post-549-0-25711100-1483342945_thumb.jpgpost-549-0-57265000-1483342947_thumb.jpg

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I always gravitate towards quite far convergence, especially in the FW. The reason is simple: Most of the time I will fire at very high deflection angles and that tends to happen at a distance, since people, if they're smart, start evading early. Add to that the fact that even if I attack an unsuspecting enemy, I never wait until the last moment when I make my dive. I will open fire early, so I can get longer trigger time on the enemy and make the kill a certainty. Will you hit better when you wait till the last second with a smaller convergence? Yes, but you will also have less trigger time and potentially get less bullets on target. And considering the sometimes very adventurous damage models of some of the Russian fighters (especially our old friend the Lagg-3) and the fact that I never take the additional cannons, I want to get a good 3 second burst in if at all possible. At higher closing speeds that means to fire earlier than one might like.

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On the old 1946 i was using 450 for the 151 and 400 for the FF.

But i think it depends how you like to shot.

I like to shot from far so...

 

For the 109 someone knows what is the distance were the Mg17 and the 20mm converge?

The 20 is throw the engine so i think you can not change the vertical convergence for it, so i supose when you change convergence on the 109 only have effect on the mg17s.

I dont know also if in game we are changeing the vert convergence when we change the values.

Edited by E69_geramos109

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For the 190, MrX told me he used 250m

I've been using that setting as well with some good success.

 

No problems on strafing, just keep your MG/FF for air target only. 

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In 1946 you could only make different settings between machineguns and cannons. So MG151/20 and MG FF/M had the same setting, only the setting for the MG17 could be different.

For the Bf109 engine gun. You are right, the nosegun was fix, what was changed, was the angle of the Revi and the machineguns. The MG151 was parallel to the engine axis and the Revi was directed downwards, so the sight crossed the shooting range of the 20mm at 400m. Then the machineguns were set to the same distance.

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There was the video with a few german aces and he said he never opened fired further than 75M behind his target..

 

At this distance, based on the lasting drawing there:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_01_2017/post-549-0-57265000-1483342947.jpg

 

The weapons are forming a box with ~4 x 0.6 meters, but cannons ~2 x 0.2 meters. Good chance to hit hard something. :)

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Because this thread is 1/2 science and half opinon;

 

I used 350 for a very long time and it gives you just a fraction more time for Jabo work. With more experience I find 300 is a really good general purpose convergence. Excellent for A2A and good for ground pounding. I've been really happy with it for the last year or so.

 

At 600m put the crosshair just over the prop for good flat pursuit hits. Point of aim, point of impact at 300. Lead aircraft by about a plane (to plane and a half) length for 300m high deflection shots. At 800 put the cross hairs just barely beyond the target for ground hits and let the gunsight fall slightly into the target.

 

Take all four canon if you are not doing the Jabo dance with the Fw

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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Convergence is key for bringing all the guns to bear in FW due to it having six guns with three different weapons profiles...it's like firing a shotgun sometimes.

 

Would love to have an A-6 with 4 MG/151 and 2 MG13...heavier firepower without such dissimilar trajectories.

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The A-6 still had MG17 instead of the MG131. The A-7 was the first with the heavy MGs.

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I wish I could use different convergence for Mg151 and MGFF. But the game does not allow. Will we ever be able to use different convergences?

 

 

Convergence is key for bringing all the guns to bear in FW due to it having six guns with three different weapons profiles...it's like firing a shotgun sometimes.

 I think the convergence used in real life gave more power to hit your shots.

Does anyone have shooting screenshots with success more than 400 meters and planes? I would also like to see in AAA attacks

 

I used 350 for a very long time and it gives you just a fraction more time for Jabo work. With more experience I find 300 is a really good general purpose convergence. Excellent for A2A and good for ground pounding. I've been really happy with it for the last year or so.   At 600m put the crosshair just over the prop for good flat pursuit hits. Point of aim, point of impact at 300. Lead aircraft by about a plane (to plane and a half) length for 300m high deflection shots. At 800 put the cross hairs just barely beyond the target for ground hits and let the gunsight fall slightly into the target.   Take all four canon if you are not doing the Jabo dance with the Fw   Hope this helps.
Edited by JAGER_Kampf

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For the 109 someone knows what is the distance were the Mg17 and the 20mm converge?

 

 

MG17s - parallel horizontal convergence, vertical convergence with the gunsight at 400 meters

Cannons - vertical convergence with the gunsight at 400 meters (F-2 and F-4), 200 meters horizontal convergence with the MG-FF/Ms in the E-series planes.

Edited by LukeFF

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Given that "the Fw190's eagerly accepted head on attacks" according to the soviet analysis posted here long ago, you might often be closing at 200+ metres per second so you would not have a target in the convergence zone for more than a fraction of a second anyway.

 

I would prefer 400m horizontal 800m vertical: gives a less extreme X shape to the beaten zone and I think better hit chance with low % shots in head on or slashing attacks where getting exactly on target is hard.   Of course if you are dog-fighting and tracking your target a lower convergence would be better, but why would you do that in a Fw190? 

 

edit: pretty much LukeFF's diagram of the A7 actually.

Edited by unreasonable

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Yup, I was thinking 200 would be really close for ground pounding. I try to engage with guns from 800-500m. With the outter guns at 200 they would probably cross and never come to bear at all. Fine for A2A though if that is your primary function.

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On 1/1/2017 at 11:42 PM, LukeFF said:

Fw 190 convergence values, per the book values, changed wildly as time went on:

 

For the A-6, quite large horizontal convergence values:

 

post-549-0-78944100-1483342762_thumb.jpgpost-549-0-68083000-1483342764_thumb.jpg

 

And then the A-7/A-8:

 

post-549-0-25711100-1483342945_thumb.jpgpost-549-0-57265000-1483342947_thumb.jpg

Sorry for the necro, but this is really interesting.
The way I read it in IL2 terms:

  • For most people what's important is Rumpf and Flegelwurzel. That's the central guns on the fuselage (mg) and in the wing roots (cannons). The other "flegel" thing are optional gunpods.
  • Vertical convergence is the most important for us, as it affects where you aim and is the difference between a hit or a miss. That's 550 for cannons in all cases. Nice, because that helps with the poor 190 forward visibility, requiring the bandit to be hidden by your engine in many cases if you want to hit it. Not a solution for that, but it improves it somewhat.
  •  Horizontal convergence is secondary; that's really how much damage you do once you hit because it determines how concentrated your fire is at a given range. Since these are wing root guns, it's not extreme that it's 600m.
  • Mg's are parallel, infinite horizontal convergence in all cases. Ok, easy.
  • In newer planes, Mg's went from hitting close to the point of aim for cannons to falling well before. I wonder why? Is that to create better convergence at short range for close in shots?
  • Gunpods went from crossing way far out at 800 (since they were operated by a separate button, I assume that was for ground attack?) to also falling well short of the main MG/cannon cluster. Why? Like the MGs, was this possibly to beef up the destructive power at close range? Why would they do that, when the FW's job increasingly became hunting bombers? 

    In any case, given the limitations of the game not letting us separately set convergence, the most realistic setting seems to be 550.
Edited by von_Michelstamm

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On 1/2/2017 at 9:02 AM, 216_Yakdriver said:

when you see the whites in their eyes.
then get closer.

 

Well I guess that was the reason why the guys at Sturmstaffel 1 sew that symbol on their jackets:

 

Unbenannt.jpg.c457eb89de723728dbddd3b2830e09d9.jpg

 

Siegfried Müller

mullers2.jpg

 

Gerhard Vivroux

vivroux.jpg

Edited by sevenless
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Air to air: 120 m. (for bomber hunting I'll sometimes choose 180 m).

Air to Ground: 300 m.

 

With Fw 190 you are lucky to have so much firepower concentrated close to centerline. I always equip 190 with outter wing guns and use them only at close distances (<150 m). Centerline guns I use also at longer distances, since their trajectories are not affected by convergence as much as outter wing guns. Plus, you have virtually unlimited ammo..

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4 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:

The other "flegel" thing are optional gunpods.

The Flügel (Fluegel) guns were not gunpods, but the wingmounted 20mm guns, that if not by default then at least pretty often used.

4 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:

Vertical convergence is the most important for us, as it affects where you aim and is the difference between a hit or a miss. That's 550 for cannons in all cases. Nice, because that helps with the poor 190 forward visibility, requiring the bandit to be hidden by your engine in many cases if you want to hit it. Not a solution for that, but it improves it somewhat.

The interesting here is the highest point of the 20mm projectiles of 82/84cm above the gunsight at 350m distance, which might be quite helpful for deflection shots.

4 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:

In newer planes, Mg's went from hitting close to the point of aim for cannons to falling well before. I wonder why? Is that to create better convergence at short range for close in shots?

As far as I know, they were not really moved in any direction, but the change of the convergence by the 190s with four MG151/20 (from A6 on) to 550m for the 20mm guns, was done by making a different setting for the gunsight. That the MG131 have a convergence of 400m instead of the convergence of 500m for the MG17 of the A6 might be because of different trajectory of those weapons.

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15 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The Flügel (Fluegel) guns were not gunpods, but the wingmounted 20mm guns, that if not by default then at least pretty often used.


Whoops, that was really dumb on my part. I forgot there were other guns on the A8 even without the 30mms selected in game.
How embarrassing.

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5 hours ago, von_Michelstamm said:


Whoops, that was really dumb on my part. I forgot there were other guns on the A8 even without the 30mms selected in game.
How embarrassing.

I always select them, so I have to know. But many players don't use them, so you might not be the only one, who is not aware of that.

Plus, you can have gunpods from the A5 onwards, which replace the one MG/FF-M with two MG151/20 each side, which gives you quite a punch.

Edited by Yogiflight

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600m, but that is my standard for all aircraft:

- They are a little high at short range, but as I know this I can adjust accordingly

- The higher apogee at short range is moderately useful for defection

- 190 and most other aircraft have pretty powerful armament, so a small number of hits is sufficient (not the RAF harmonisation issues of 1940)

- 600m gives a nasty shock to opponents running away and who think themselves clear.

 

Since very few shots are exactly 6’o’clock, the horizontal convergence is not terribly important so the question (for me) is ensuring that you understand the vertical aspect of the trajectory.

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