216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Kemp, the reports are mostly bollocks. In Ukraine you have a country that's split - half was for the new government, half was against. In the Western and Northern parts you will find the Ukrainian your telly shows, the big ole nationalist who hates Putin, wants to join a militia and toodaloo. In the East and South you will find the Ukrainian who sympathises with the Eastern regions under fire and who was very happy with how the Crimean referendum went down. I don't give a damn about the media there, I lived there during the period and I know people there including family. This isn't a geopolitical issue to me, it's one I'm very much in the middle of. Go there yourself, get your facts from the ground and you'll see how things feel different from the news. About Ukraine bombing their cities, that has already happened dude. People from those areas sometimes cross into the Ukrainian government zones for medical treatment (their own hospitals have been blown to bits) and the stories you hear are gruesome. It's really not OK down there. Edited November 9, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell 1
Aap Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Are you seriously saying that the Ukrainian army and far right militia were not trying to surround Donetsk and Lugansk? You are talking about the time that the war was already going on and Crimea was already occupied by Russia (if I remember correctly). Lucas was saying that Ukraine was about to bomb their own regions in the east for disagreeing with then. Don't see any difference?
707shap_Srbin Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 It is not me, it is the greatest grand master of chess of all time: https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/796196235065626625 Kasparov? Seriously? The USA-funded traitor's ideas about Russia and Ukraine is agreed by someone seriously? You must find out some info about that man, really. Espesially his role in every Anti-Russian events. P.S. He was kicked off from Russia and post of President of World Chess Assosiation went to K.Ilyumzhinov instead of Kasparov. That is why Kasparov is full of hate.
Uufflakke Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) See it from the positive side. I prefer to see Melania instead of Bill as the First Lady of the USA. Edited November 9, 2016 by Uufflakke 3
Aap Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 About Ukraine bombing their cities, that has already happened dude. People from those areas sometimes cross into the Ukrainian government zones for medical treatment (their own hospitals have been blown to bits) and the stories you hear are gruesome. It's really not OK down there. That bombing was due to "disagreement" with Ukrainian government? Or after Donetsk/Lugansk people had made their BUK systems and other modern Russian equipment in their garages ( ) to express their "disagreement" with the government? Lucky thing that Russian military personnel happened to be "on vacation" in Ukraine at that time with all their equipment to prevent all these innocent peaceful civilians from being bombed.
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Blimey... Remember the timeline? Ukraine overthrows the president. Donetsk and Lugansk region refuse to accept that. Donetsk and Lugansk regions declare independence. Ukrainian army threatens to use force. Donetsk and Lugansk citizens still refuse, and put together small groups of people armed mostly with primitive weapons to stand ground. Ukraine sends army to Donetsk. Donetsk militia fights back at the city limits. Ukraine declares everyone a terrorist and it snowballs from there with aerial bombings, artillery, helicopters and the whole monty. Forgot? 1
6./ZG26_Emil Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Blimey... Remember the timeline? Ukraine overthrows the president. Donetsk and Lugansk region refuse to accept that. Donetsk and Lugansk regions declare independence. Ukrainian army threatens to use force. Donetsk and Lugansk citizens still refuse, and put together small groups of people armed mostly with primitive weapons to stand ground. Ukraine sends army to Donetsk. Donetsk militia fights back at the city limits. Ukraine declares everyone a terrorist and it snowballs from there with aerial bombings, artillery, helicopters and the whole monty. Forgot? To be fair anyone getting the 'news' from Western MSM won't have a clue....every single news source printed lies and stupid garbage....I believe the total of Russian invasions being reported was close to 70 in 6 months LOL Anyway back to Trump or this will probably get locked 1
unreasonable Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) See it from the positive side. I prefer to see Melania instead of Bill as the First Lady of the USA. Good point - Trump certainly has much better taste in women than Hillary, so he cannot be all bad. Huma really is not a 10. A 9, or an 11, possibly, but not a 10. BTW - can people wanting to re-fight the Russo-Ukrainian "incident" do it somewhere else please? Edited November 9, 2016 by unreasonable
6./ZG26_Emil Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 What happens when you've grown up always getting your own way and never losing?
707shap_Srbin Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 You are talking about the time that the war was already going on and Crimea was already occupied by Russia (if I remember correctly). Lucas was saying that Ukraine was about to bomb their own regions in the east for disagreeing with then. Don't see any difference? Late february: Unconstitutional Coupe Early march: Referendum in Crimea. Late march: mass people protests in the East and South of Ukraine. Early april: Slaughter in Slaviansk - civil war began. Massive victims. Goverment use aviation to bomb Lugansk and Donetsk. Ballistic missles "Tochka-U" were used to bomb Slavianks with hundreds of dead civilians. Mid-april - mass protests in Nikolayev and Kharkov were slashed by goverment forses. Late april - war is going on full scale. Neo-nazis from all Ukraine, and far-right nazi volonteers from Sweden, Poland, Germany, Spain, USA and UK are fighting along "new goverment" against people's militia and volonteurs from Russia. Kazakhstan, Belarus and Serbia. 2nd May - Tragedy in Odessa. Hundred of people are slaughtered, shot and burned alive in the surrounded house, by goverment forses and neonazists+hools. Just to refresh a memory.
II./JG77_Manu* Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Everyone I know in Crimea is extremely happy with the results, and was full for joining Russia. Propaganda is strong in certain countries. Only thing i can say, apart from Russian and western media, that probably both don't tell the complete truth..i know a lot of (real) Ukrainians, partly people that fled Crimea and Eastern Ukraine ( mostly followed family members) to Germany. They tell a completely different story. Nothing about happiness, quite the opposite.. I'd be a little more cautious with expressions like "everyone", "all the people"... another example: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25977-forum-rule-no-7-vs-particular-yak-1b-skin/?p=406320 , more specificially: "You and your chief mechanic are Soviet-born citizens, you are both likely to be in your 20s, at least one of you probably has lost a number of relatives and friends to both Nazi occupation and the war as a whole, you have been kicking Nazi butt for probably a year at least now, you have seen villages destroyed and burned to a crisp, bodies of civilians left and right, you have heard horrible stories from every single city you stopped at and you have seen the face of relief in just about every Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian child, peasant, worker and professor when they see you and your regiment arriving. Everything you have seen in your push westwards was receptive people happy they aren't under the gun from the German army and SS any more." Again expressions like "every Ukrainian worker, peasant..."..sorry i don't know where you got that from, but it's not true. There were countless people in Baltic states, Belarussia, or also Ukraine who felt the exact opposite...for whom the arrival/conquering of the Germans was a salvation from Stalinistic Soviet Russia..i tend to know a bit about it. Half of my family (Ukrainian) suffered under Soviet Russia, the majority got deported and killed afterwards(= Gulag) before the war even started. When the Germans finally arrived in Dnjepropetrowsk, it was celebration day for my family, and not only for them....they (who survived Stalin's social cleansing) immediately immigrated to Germany. It were by far not the only people. I know many families that fled the Soviet Union during German occupation. I'd really stop to see all black and white, or pretend that Russia "saved/helped" everyone, and all people in eastern Europe were pro-Russia, and Anti-Germany, because that's just a big lie. There are always 2 sides of a coin. Edited November 9, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 I'm having to hear a good lot of acquaintances cry about Trump being Hitler, some kind of new holocaust brewing and calls for impeaching Trump. I don't like the man one bit, but among the options presented he's the lesser problem by a long mile.
t4trouble Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 To be fair anyone getting the 'news' from Western MSM won't have a clue....every single news source printed lies and stupid garbage....I believe the total of Russian invasions being reported was close to 70 in 6 months LOL Anyway back to Trump or this will probably get locked People have short memories, saddam weapons of mass destruction,bringing democracy to Libya of course western media doesn't lie...
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Funny how perspectives vary - I have relatives who survived the war by fleeing regions just a couple of kilometres from yours. Those who stayed were executed by the SS upon their arrival, while others died at the front defending Vladikavkaz. No offense meant to your family, but from all survivors I've spoken to there were not too many people happy about German occupation. Particularly Ukrainian Jews, as you might expect. Hitler was not a good guy, and some who stayed behind and initially welcomed the occupation changed their mind after seeing some of the stuff done there. But that's a whole other topic. Edited November 9, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell
Aap Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Remember the timeline? Ukraine overthrows the president. Donetsk and Lugansk region refuse to accept that. Donetsk and Lugansk regions declare independence. Ukrainian army threatens to use force. Donetsk and Lugansk citizens still refuse, and put together small groups of people armed mostly with primitive weapons to stand ground. Ukraine sends army to Donetsk. Donetsk militia fights back at the city limits. Ukraine declares everyone a terrorist and it snowballs from there with aerial bombings, artillery, helicopters and the whole monty. That is one way to write the story. Another way could be something like: Pro-Russian president refused to sign a treaty signed between Ukrainian government and EU. Ukrainians started peaceful demonstrations against their president at Maidan Square. Eventually president ordered snipers to kill protestant and then decided to flee from Ukraine to Russia. According to Ukrainian constitution Ukraine elected a new president. ... Crimea was annexed by Russia ... Pro-Russian separatists In Lugansk and Donetsk were armed and supported by Russia .. civil war ensued ... So there are many ways of writing stories about the same events. People tend to pick up information and "facts" that support their own views and beliefs, while downplaying the information of opposing views. From your comments in general on these forums I have an understanding that you are reasonable guy. So just don't forget to occasionally challenge your own views and your own "truth" about things that you believe in. They might not be as black and white as you have come to believe and it is not easy to remain objective in a case where you are naturally or by default on one side.
MarcoRossolini Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Balls of steel :D It's not like 97% of the people studying this climate change thing are saying its the real deal.
6./ZG26_Emil Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 People have short memories, saddam weapons of mass destruction,bringing democracy to Libya of course western media doesn't lie... Indeed!
II./JG77_Manu* Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Funny how perspectives vary - I have relatives who survived the war by fleeing regions just a couple of kilometres from yours. Those who stayed were executed by the SS upon their arrival, while others died at the front defending Vladikavkaz. No offense meant to your family, but from all survivors I've spoken to there were not too many people happy about German occupation. Particularly Ukrainian Jews, as you might expect. Hitler was not a good guy. Well, it made a lot of difference, if you were avowing Stalin supporter, or loyally to the (former) czar, how the Germans proceeded with you and your family. Not many of the latter left in Russia, to tell the story to you mate. My family luckily were not Jews, and no, Hitler was not a good guy. But he saved my family from Stalin, and i would not be here now, without him. Btw Stalin was also not a good guy, he killed more Russian civilians then Hitler
6./ZG26_Emil Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 It's not like 97% of the people studying this climate change thing are saying its the real deal. Nope...only the fake scientists are on that gravy train. The met office can barely predict what is going to happen next week let alone in 10 years...so far all 'predictions' have been wrong. The sampled data is far too small for a planet that is 4.6 billion years old. It's a joke but doesn't mean we shouldn't look after our environment and do what can to stop pollution. The earth is not heating up to dangerous levels at all, in fact we're only just coming out of an ice age, it's cool, CO2 levels aren't dangerous and lower than some parts of the earths history (before man)....don't believe me...go outside and take a look around. The world is fine and technology will always come up with new ways to deal with pollution. When I was university studying geology global warming was a big joke amongst everyone including academics, we study the climate over 10s and 100s of million years not 120 years like that ridiculous hockey stick graph with a cherry picked start date ....nowadays you can lose your academic career if you simply disagree.
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 So there are many ways of writing stories about the same events. People tend to pick up information and "facts" that support their own views and beliefs, while downplaying the information of opposing views. From your comments in general on these forums I have an understanding that you are reasonable guy. So just don't forget to occasionally challenge your own views and your own "truth" about things that you believe in. They might not be as black and white as you have come to believe and it is not easy to remain objective in a case where you are naturally or by default on one side. Kemp, I also have nothing against you and I completely understand that the information that reaches Germany (or most countries for that matter) is different from the one you see locally. Initially I was really, really trying to get my facts from American and British publications because I was used to it - mainly The Guardian and the BBC. The problem was when the stuff that started unfolding in front of my eyes in the nightmare those few months were started to look very, very different from what I read in the news. It was pure hooliganism mixed with far-right behaviour, a full sh*tshow really. A side-note, Yanukovich was never pro-Russian. That was his main problem, he wanted to please and have both Russia and the EU by the balls to get good deals from both ends. His impotence and inaction were a huge problem, and were the things that led him to the situation he found himself in. The sniper thing you can find a lot about by Googling it. Start with the calls between the Estonian foreign minister and Catherine Ashton. Panzerbar posted a good basic outline of events.
SYN_Mike77 Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Not that it pertains to the United States of America in any way, but in democratic nations the person with the most votes wins the election.
II./JG77_Manu* Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Kemp, I also have nothing against you and I completely understand that the information that reaches Germany Kemp is not a German. I am the only German from our squad, just to simplify further discussions
707shap_Srbin Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Pro-Russian president refused to sign a treaty signed between Ukrainian government and EU Yanukovich was pre-Western president Ukrainians started peaceful demonstrations against their president at Maidan Square. With molotov cocktails, pistols, spikes, and burning barricades. Eventually president ordered snipers to kill protestant and then decided to flee from Ukraine to Russia. Yanukovich aborted the bringing his police and troops to deactivate protesters. Lately , they came to scene UNARMED. Snipers were shooting from 1 place and killed many people on both sides - specially, to grown their agressiveness. Crimea was annexed by Russia .. According to Ukrainian constitution, there followed a Referendum, and according constitution and International Law (!!!!!) Crimea joined Russian Federation. Pro-Russian separatists In Lugansk and Donetsk were armed and supported by Russia .. civil war ensued ... When civil war ensued, local militia was almost unarmed - having pump-rifles, pistols e.t.c. Against Army of Nazi batallions. Russian volonteers came only in middle of april.
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Ah, really? I thought JG77 was German-speaking for reason or another. Don't quite know where I got that from
II./JG77_Manu* Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Nope it's international east, west, Europe, America. Our squad leader/founder is Croatian
6./ZG26_Emil Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Ha ha ha lock her up https://www.rt.com/usa/366034-trump-clinton-special-prosecutor/
MarcoRossolini Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Nope...only the fake scientists are on that gravy train. The met office can barely predict what is going to happen next week let alone in 10 years...so far all 'predictions' have been wrong. The sampled data is far too small for a planet that is 4.6 billion years old. It's a joke but doesn't mean we shouldn't look after our environment and do what can to stop pollution. The earth is not heating up to dangerous levels at all, in fact we're only just coming out of an ice age, it's cool, CO2 levels aren't dangerous and lower than some parts of the earths history (before man)....don't believe me...go outside and take a look around. The world is fine and technology will always come up with new ways to deal with pollution. When I was university studying geology global warming was a big joke amongst everyone including academics, we study the climate over 10s and 100s of million years not 120 years like that ridiculous hockey stick graph with a cherry picked start date ....nowadays you can lose your academic career if you simply disagree. Whatever. It's futile arguing as I regard what you've said as moronic and you probably regard what I've just said as equally moronic. Humans.
707shap_Srbin Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Pictures like that make me wonder if that would be certainly enough for the big bear's appetite or would it be another "Sudetenland"? Would it be followed by pictures like that: No no. Only Novorossia pleasse If seriously: each and every time Putin said only: WE ARE INTERESTED IN UNSEPARATED UKRAINE. And for us, we are interested in peasefull neighbour. But now, its a problem - after all that blood, Donbass people dont want to get back to Nazi-regime in Ukraine. This is the problem.
Aap Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) I answer with questions, just to help you challenge your own facts. I hope that is okay. Late february: Unconstitutional Coupe Unconstitutional? Are you sure you know Ukrainian Constitution well enough or did you hear it from a certain media source? Do you remember which one? Early march: Referendum in Crimea. Coup was late February, referendum early March? How viable is that timeline with no pre-planning? Were there international observers and free press to make sure all went honestly? Early april: Slaughter in Slaviansk - civil war began. Massive victims. Goverment use aviation to bomb Lugansk and Donetsk. Ballistic missles "Tochka-U" were used to bomb Slavianks with hundreds of dead civilians. Mid-april - mass protests in Nikolayev and Kharkov were slashed by goverment forses. Late april - war is going on full scale. Neo-nazis from all Ukraine, and far-right nazi volonteers from Sweden, Poland, Germany, Spain, USA and UK are fighting along "new goverment" against people's militia and volonteurs from Russia. Kazakhstan, Belarus and Serbia. 2nd May - Tragedy in Odessa. Hundred of people are slaughtered, shot and burned alive in the surrounded house, by goverment forses and neonazists+hools. From how many "neutral" (or let's say different) news agencies reported "slaughtering", "neo-nazis", "nazi-volunteers from Sweden", "hundreds burned alive" and other textbook-propaganda terminology to impact audience's emotions? How credible is the entire background of these happenings logically? Edited November 9, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp
unreasonable Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Ha ha ha lock her up https://www.rt.com/usa/366034-trump-clinton-special-prosecutor/ No chance - expect an early retirement to the newly purchased Maldives estate - no extradition treaty. Trump would be mad to go after her: however justified, it would make him look vindictive. Oh wait....
707shap_Srbin Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 "nazi-volunteers from Sweden" 13 january 2015: 31-years old nazist Leo Sjöholm, killed in Donbass. Next to killed is a sniper 47-y.o. Mickael Skillt, who is fighting in the "Azov" nazi batallion. Kemp, please, look at the emblem of Azov, and then to emblem of 2nd SS Division "Das Reich". Then look to my eyes and say "There are no nazists in Ukraine". 1
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Nope it's international east, west, Europe, America. Our squad leader/founder is Croatian Good to know! Ours is mostly Eurasian at the moment, not by design but because naturally people from similar time zones get together often
Dakpilot Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 When things get to the point in a political discussion that 'Hitler saved my family" (justified or not) it is time to lock a thread on a flight sim forum Cheers Dakpilot
6./ZG26_Custard Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Hillary and her shills.....eh I mean campaign team have been "putin" around the rumour that its going to be WWIII if Trump wins? Hey wait a minute???? https://www.rt.com/news/365966-putin-trump-congratulates-victory/
Danziger Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 When things get to the point in a political discussion that 'Hitler saved my family" (justified or not) it is time to lock a thread on a flight sim forum Cheers Dakpilot Or just take the side arguments to their own thread or PMs.
Aap Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) 13 january 2015: 31-years old nazist Leo Sjöholm, killed in Donbass. I am not saying that there are no neo-nazis among Ukrainian fighters. And I am not saying that "everybody wanted to be part of Russia". The absolutes like that are also a textbook-material of propaganda. Just read your previous description of "nazis vs good guys", "slaughtering civilians", "burning alive" and all that stuff that is built up to brainwash on emotional basis. Just take a step back, take a deep breath and read your text as neutrally as you are capable of. Kemp, please, look at the emblem of Azov, and then to emblem of 2nd SS Division "Das Reich". Then look to my eyes and say "There are no nazists in Ukraine". Right. Take a look at Donetsk and Lugansk "Republics" flags and symbols and say that there are no resembles of Pro-Russian involvement. Edited November 9, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp
Dakpilot Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Or just take the side arguments to their own thread or PMs. Lively political debate is an important thing and should not be suppressed But not here (flight sim forum), the rule is well known, and for good reason, and shown many times it ALWAYS ends in tears and animosity Cheers Dakpilot
707shap_Srbin Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 Take a look at Donetsk and Lugansk "Republics" flags and symbols and say that there are no resembles of Pro-Russian involvement. So, You equal Nazism and Russian goverment? 2
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