Forum rule no. 7 vs a particular Yak-1b skin

[PatrickAWlson]

Let's be real: The only reason we don't have swastikas on the axis' planes is to avoid conflict with certain countries' laws against displaying nazi symbols.

 

Historical skins are precluded from any PC consideration IMHO.

 

+1

[Finkeren]

The kind of mess it would start if it hit the Polish media... I cannot even imagine. The journalist will grab on to anything. Codename Panzers was nearly banned for the first mission, then was the Death to Spies thing where they concluded that you play as agent of the KNVD. I just hope this does not get out there.

Ok, so we don't really disagree then.

 

The only reason why this would relate to contemporary politics is if someone chose to get offended by it and exploit it for political gain.

 

I think we can have a meaningful debate about something like this being insensitive towards the victims of WW2 or survivors who might find this offensive - I totally get that, though I'd still rule against censorship. However, that's a purely historical discussion.

[Danziger]

Plural. Not directed at you but the people who whine about being offended by a historical paint scheme on a WW2 plane in a WW2 flight sim. There are tons of swastikas and communists in Indiana Jones but I bet they weren't offended by that...

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

I saw it yesterday and I wasn't happy. I know it's historical skin but I feel like we could live without it.

 

I believe that it could now propagate the lie that Soviet Union was a liberator of Poland when in fact it was a cynical aggressor responsible for death of more than hundred thousand innocent Polish citizens.

[Mmaruda]

Here is the thing plain and simple. Due to certain current political events and situations the relationship between Russia and Poland is far from good. Some politicians also seem hell bent on adding fuel to the fire. Moreover, nationalist view are on the rise and they do have the silent approval of the government (11th of November is also soon).

 

Can this skin be considered offensive to Polish people? Yes. Should anyone feel offended and make a fuss about it? No. However, some people will see it, than see that the devs are Russian and make up theories that it is a deliberate offense. Also, Polish media become more and more like propaganda outlets and blow every bullshit topic out of proportion.

 

Make what you will of this.

[AndyJWest]

If it is a 'bullshit topic', why did you start it?

[[DBS]El_Marta]

 

So? She should be able to say whatever nonsense she wants. The way you counter nonsense like this is, you look at the evidence and explain what the reality of the situation is, you dont lock someone up if his/her nonsense offends you. And since when is forming a right wing group illegal in germany? You dont get to shut down groups you don't like without evidence to show that they are actually a terrorist group. I dont know about that particular situation whether their group was actually planning an attack or soemthing.

 

After he was announced Reichskanzler by the right wing coalition, Hitler got the majority in the following election and used emergency legislation to built up the Großdeutsches Reich. Due to his "freedom of speech" he enjoyed the support of the majority of the german people. Everything pretty legal and even anti-terroristic.

 

The criteria is not wether you are using violence only, but wether you are agitating against the constitutional order and the common humanitarian rights. In this regard german post war jurisdictions has been quite generous, especially when it comes to followers of national sozialist ideas. As a consequence the "Deutsche Reichspartei" as a follow organisation of the NSDAP and the "Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands" were forbidden.

Since there is the monopol of violence of the government there will not be any valiant and honorable militias like in Syria, Ukraine, Lybia and perhaps even in the US as well proven instrument to save the situation once "freedom of speech" got out of bounds.

 

Pluralistic democracy has to defend itself early.

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Finkeren]

If it is a 'bullshit topic', why did you start it?

I think it's quite relevant, even though I disagree about pulling the skin from the sim, and I think people have been relatively civil in the discussion so far. I think a debate like this can't hurt, as long as people control their tempers.

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

Mmaruda please keep your political observations and opinions about current Polish government to yourself.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 307_Banzai

[Max_Damage]

Well polish people owe Russia their lives and their freedom thats a historical fact so sucks to be you

 

Btw we ve had a forum posted Hitler's ju52 flight skin. Apparently this is fine by you hehe but a russian skin for liberation of poland isnt :D

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

There you go. Propagating lies again. We owe Soviets nothing and we were never liberated by Soviets.

 

We were attacked in most trecherous fashion and occupied for fifty years.

 

So, thanks for nothing.

[No601_Swallow]

O.T.:

In Italy somebody has proposed a Law to considere as Fascist Propaganda, everithing that shows images of Mussolini or of the simbology related to that ideology, and they are absolutely serious. We are waiting to see if it will be accepted or not from the Parliament. In this case, all the our forums with Fascist historicall pics about ANR Macchi 205 for ex., could be considered as Fascist Propaganda.

So, this problem does exist..... This just to answer, giving you a concrete example.

http://www.camera.it/_dati/leg17/lavori/stampati/pdf/17PDL0034860.pdf

 

Hm. If that's the case, they'd have to replace most of the manhole covers and drain covers in most of southern Italy (many date from the 30s), and probably demolish and rebuild Statione Centrale in Milan! But every country has relics or left-overs from former times. As a Brit myself, I know that even our national flag is sometimes seen as a symbol of imperialism, while England's cross of St George is sometimes problematic for other reasons.

 

As for the Hakenkreuz, it's super-illegal in Austria too. I've even felt the need to tutor my kids in not telling English WWII-based jokes in public in Vienna. It's not political correctness gone mad. It's just good manners. Why risk causing offence?  Austrians and Germans know better how to handle their own histories than some forum poster droning on about freedom of expression.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

The Soviets expelled the Germans, ended the Nazi rule and installed a stalinistic regime in Poland. "Liberation"  from todays point of view could only be used from a special contemporary perspective and of course sounds like hypocrisy to some polish people today.

 

On the other hand "Liberation" may sound different to people who were inmates of Auschwitz f.g..

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Aap]

Well polish people owe Russia their lives and their freedom thats a historical fact so sucks to be you

Btw we ve had a forum posted Hitler's ju52 flight skin. Apparently this is fine by you hehe but a russian skin for liberation of poland isnt :D

 

I guess you don't understand the meaning of "liberation". You are actually supposed to set the liberated party free. 

For example a situation where two countries attack an independent country and share it between each other and then later on these countries start to fight each other and one is pushing the other away and keeps all by himself, that is not considered liberation.

[TP_Silk]

This thread is only ever going to end in one place now.

[Livai]

This is the trouble with political censorship in history - once you start, where do you draw the line?

 

History is History! Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery, but Today is the present where our acts & courage create our future!

 

 

Yak1b_skin_03.jpg shows a plane with a skin which shows the allegory of Polonia welcoming a russian soldier with a sword with flowers. The contemporary propagandistic message of this scene is to depict the poles as being gratefully and willingly accepting the russian invasion as liberation.

 

Wrong, it shows a russian soldier who killed a German soldier with his own sword to save her life and she gives him flowers. A noble gesture!

 

"Od polskiego patrioty prof. Wolf Messinga polskiemu lotnikowi" ->"From Polish patriot prof. Wolf Messing Polish pilots/airman"

[Mmaruda]

 

 

US just has a superior system compared to Germany when it comes to freedom of speech.

 

Didn't the US nearly ban a certain flag after a shooting last year?

[150GCT_Veltro]

Here is the thing plain and simple. Due to certain current political events and situations the relationship between Russia and Poland is far from good. Some politicians also seem hell bent on adding fuel to the fire. Moreover, nationalist view are on the rise and they do have the silent approval of the government (11th of November is also soon).

 

Can this skin be considered offensive to Polish people? Yes. Should anyone feel offended and make a fuss about it? No. However, some people will see it, than see that the devs are Russian and make up theories that it is a deliberate offense. Also, Polish media become more and more like propaganda outlets and blow every bullshit topic out of proportion.

 

Make what you will of this.

 

Bravo!

 

Perfect.

 

We don't need to add more. We just need to be informed about what's going on in Europe.

 

Good post dude, simple realistic.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Mrs. Haverbeck has been sentenced, but the verdict is not valid, yet. Flying the Nazi flag in a political rally or demonstration and calling the Holocaust a jewish propaganda tale in order to harm the german people is of course considered as racist propaganda and agitating against human rights and the constititional order in germany.

 

We also consider the death penality as a crime against our constitution and human rights.

German judges also have a hard time jailing presumable terrorists when there does not seem to be sufficient evidence.

 

You will be sentenced for treason when you speak the truth about obvious crimes in the US as in any other country and you can be imprisoned for decades without trial as in any other country. You can even complain about it, but as long as the other side has the money and the media and the unrestricted freedom of telling their story, you are lost.

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[[DBS]El_Marta]

 

Wrong, it shows a russian soldier who killed a German soldier with his own sword to save her life and she gives him flowers. A noble gesture!

 

Why wrong. This is what it shows. And perhaps it even happened like this in reality, like the Russian and Ukranian girls gave flowers to the German soldiers in 1941. For sure a noble feature of the girls and perhaps even of some of the soldiers. But also of his government?

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Gambit21]

It's ironic that we're talking about machines who's entire purpose is to shoot and kill machines and humans of an opposing nationality - yet it's the paint job put on said machine as an afterthought that someone chooses to have a problem with.

 

This topic probably should be locked

[216th_Jordan]

Hmm, really, and no assistance could be made? If the Poles could fight with scraped together weapons and supplies I would have thought any assistance no matter how small would have been beneficial. The uprising is next on my reading list so I wonder if I will have a better understanding after.

 

 

 

I should have added that, what I meant is that the russian offensive was not stopped because of the warsaw uprising. (but there was no support neither)

Edited November 4, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Eventually the germans and the armed polish patriots were weakened. Nothing to be worried about from Stalin's and Berija's point of view.

"Wenn zwei sich streiten freut sich der Dritte."

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Eh, what a mess of a thread

 

Just adding here that the aircraft in question was flown by a Polish pilot, and built with money donated by a Polish professor, per the inscription.

[Danziger]

Eh, what a mess of a thread

 

Just adding here that the aircraft in question was flown by a Polish pilot, and built with money donated by a Polish professor, per the inscription.

Who cares what it really means! Burn it!!! Hahaha god I kill myself sometimes. It reminds me of the witch scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

I think the thread just mirrors the complexity of the subject as the actual history of the paintjob shows.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Looking at it, I think that's a different aircraft (can't find a proper photo or profile with it just yet, help is appreciated), but anyhow...

 

The main problem in my view is trying to over-analyse this using the politically-loaded 21st century outlook on things.

 

By the timeline, this happened in 1944. Put yourself in the shoes of whoever painted this.

 

You and your chief mechanic are Soviet-born citizens, you are both likely to be in your 20s, at least one of you probably has lost a number of relatives and friends to both Nazi occupation and the war as a whole, you have been kicking Nazi butt for probably a year at least now, you have seen villages destroyed and burned to a crisp, bodies of civilians left and right, you have heard horrible stories from every single city you stopped at and you have seen the face of relief in just about every Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian child, peasant, worker and professor when they see you and your regiment arriving. Everything you have seen in your push westwards was receptive people happy they aren't under the gun from the German army and SS any more.

 

So, as you prepare to lunge into Poland, the last country in the way to entering Germany, you and your mechanic decide to stylise your aircraft with a little cute drawing showing a Polish woman welcoming the Soviet soldier marching over the dead Nazi soldier's body - an accurate depiction of nearly all your interactions with locals so far - together with a funky-looking snake. You both have a laugh at it, your friends have a laugh at it, your commander probably yells at the two of you for it but you accept that the price is fair to have some fun in these dark days.

 

The next day, you take off once again, in what once again could be your last mission, or just one of the next hundred you will have to accomplish to put an end to the war. Would you really walk up to that pair of lads and say they are huge arseholes for drawing that while putting their life on the line daily to bring an end to the bloodiest conflict the world has seen to date? That would be anything from stupid to extremely disrespectful.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

[unreasonable]

Just be thankful that it was not a Fw190 skin.

[Danziger]

As in Russians flying 190s or Germans painting defeatist graffiti on their plane???

[Sunde]

I feel like it's the exact opposite.

In that case i think you are playing the wrong kind of game, what are you doing in a russian developed flighsim, if you feel that there is bad blood between you and russians? (Im not trying to harras - im genuinely curious).

[Jason_Williams]

I'll look into it.

 

Jason