Developer Diary, Part 138 - Discussion

[BlackBadger]

Very positive news indeed!  

[E69_geramos109]

i hope when they fix the 109 prop hanging (never seen it actually) they will also fix the Yak prop hanging which is an actual issue

Now will be worse with the 1b new propeller. 

[216th_Peterla]

Nice DD. Congrats

[Asgar]

I will try to do some tests this weekend but I actually felt that the ability of the 109 to keep flying in very low speed almost vertical flight was a bit over the top. 

I have no comparison in tests to yak for myself but the 109 always felt way more able to keep in a steep climb at low speed.

I haven't done tests myself, but it's just that i noticed on several occasions in MP. I bounce a Yak, pass it, climb away and the Yak follows me with less energy and keeps shooting for ages even hanging from it's prop and continuing to shoot at me

Edited November 4, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It's an issue in many sims and aircraft. You can prop hang in BoS, RoF and DCS alike (recently trried with the P-51, which is the longest WW2 fighter in development and likely the most fleshed out one). The question to ask likely isn't should it be possible but to what extent which is difficult to answer.

 

Agree with Asgar, although since the recent patches the Yak is less of a pain in this regard than before.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[FuriousMeow]

I haven't done tests myself, but it's just that i noticed on several occasions in MP. I bounce a Yak, pass it, climb away and the Yak follows me with less energy and keeps shooting for ages even hanging from it's prop and continuing to shoot at me

 

If you had the speed to bounce the Yak and he still hung behind you - you didn't climb, you went vertical and that is not what you do. You bounce, go into about a 45 degree climb and then begin a spiral climb above him. Works almost every time.

[Corto]

thank you for this Update! The Yak-1b looks great!

[SYN_Mike77]

Love the skins and especially like that they have pilots of other nationalities included in their skins.  I see a French pilot skin and a Polish pilot skin!  Nice touch.

[mb339pan]

Jejeje. If blue complains we are luftwinners. If the reds complain is because they have reasonable feelings.

If is difficult for a good red pilot to land the mig it must be reviewed but If all 190 expert pilots report that is imposible to manouver at hight speed are only feelings not arguments...

 

Lets see the conclusion about the 109.

Maybe we will have also nerfed that plane.

 

+1

 

"only feelings!"

[Finkeren]

+1

 

"only feelings!"

[mb339pan]

 

go on berloga end duel whit YOUR favolous 190, so you can sing "feeling song"

[StG2_Manfred]

If you had the speed to bounce the Yak and he still hung behind you - you didn't climb, you went vertical and that is not what you do. You bounce, go into about a 45 degree climb and then begin a spiral climb above him. Works almost every time.

Like others you give smart advice here in the forum but can you proof your recommendations with a video record? I guess no!

 

[Edited]  All you guys, `-----Turban, Klaus, Finkeren, Meow, etc., just show with a video what you're talking about. It's 1000 times more worth than your words, but we're still waiting for it...

Edited November 4, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin
Profanity

[mb339pan]

 

 

 

stalinwood Z material

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by 150GCT_Pan

[StG2_Manfred]

What more and more people of my squadron do, is, we do not invest anymore. In our opinion it's best what we can do. If this doesn't change things, well we have at least not lost our money...

[Edited]

Edited November 4, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin
Not needed

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

[Edited] All you guys, Turban, Klaus, Finkeren, Meow, etc., just show with a video what you're talking about. It's 1000 times more worth than your words, but we're still waiting for it...

 

Why don't you try the tips out for yourself? It's much quicker, more fun and you don't embarrass yourself while doing it. 10/10 recommended.

[mb339pan]

What more and more people of my squadron do, is, we do not invest anymore. In our opinion it's best what we can do. If this doesn't change things, well we have at least not lost our money...

 

[Edited]

 

no more money, +1

[StG2_Manfred]

Why don't you try the tips out for yourself? It's much quicker, more fun and you don't embarrass yourself while doing it. 10/10 recommended.

? What you're talking about? I gave no advice to others.

[LukeFF]

Jejeje. If blue complains we are luftwinners. If the reds complain is because they have reasonable feelings.

If is difficult for a good red pilot to land the mig it must be reviewed but If all 190 expert pilots report that is imposible to manouver at hight speed are only feelings not arguments...

 

Lets see the conclusion about the 109.

Maybe we will have also nerfed that plane.

Oh, give it a rest already.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The tips other people give which more often than not prove that whatever 'I got killed oh no flight model is broken' complaint is nonsense.

 

Don't forget that the current Fw-190 flight model was only revised because of a lot of whining about very slight performance differences when marked against flight test data, so, for example, the line that the Fw-190 was 'nerfed' because of 'Russian bias' is ridiculous. Sure, there was something to be looked at but the current end result is the very fault of the fanboy club who act like 5 year old children in the candy aisle then play the victim when things don't go their way.

 

There are many people here who want flight models to be as accurate as possible, and I really appreciate the efforts these members have made to help the developers achieve that. However, there is also a core of players who are never happy unless they can win 9 out of 10 battles, which is childish and disrespectful towards the developers.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

[LukeFF]

Now will be worse with the 1b new propeller.

The plane's not even entered beta testing yet, and you're already claiming it's FM to be wrong? Brilliant. :-|

[Willy__]

Jejeje. If blue complains we are luftwinners. If the reds complain is because they have reasonable feelings. If is difficult for a good red pilot to land the mig it must be reviewed but If all 190 expert pilots report that is imposible to manouver at hight speed are only feelings not arguments... Lets see the conclusion about the 109. Maybe we will have also nerfed that plane.

 

+1

 

Only emotions comrade... only emotions...

 

 

 

  

 

[Edited]

Edited November 4, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin
not needed

[StG2_Manfred]

The tips other people give which more often than not prove that whatever 'I got killed oh no flight model is broken' complaint is nonsense.

 

Don't forget that the current Fw-190 flight model was only revised because of a lot of whining about very slight performance differences when marked against flight test data, so, for example, the line that the Fw-190 was 'nerfed' because of 'Russian bias' is ridiculous. Sure, there was something to be looked at but the current end result is the very fault of the fanboy club who act like 5 year old children in the candy aisle then play the victim when things don't go their way.

 

There are many people here who want flight models to be as accurate as possible, and I really appreciate the efforts these members have made to help the developers achieve that. However, there is also a core of players who are never happy unless they can win 9 out of 10 battles, which is childish and disrespectful towards the developers.

Ok, I put you onto the list Just for you I say it again, you can show it with a record if you want/can but all what I'm reading in this forum is talking over and over again. Read the numbers of 1941 and get your conclusions.

[Max_Damage]

Ok, I put you onto the list Just for you I say it again, you can show it with a record if you want/can but all what I'm reading in this forum is talking over and over again. Read the numbers of 1941 and get your conclusions.

In 1941 german air losses spiked to the level never seen before or after >:D

[LukeFF]

Read the numbers of 1941 and get your conclusions.

Even the most novice pilot here has more flight time than a typical rookie Soviet pilot in 1941, we fly in a climate-controlled environment with plastic controllers, all with no fear of death or capture. Drawing conclusions in such a situation is a fool's errand.

[StG2_Manfred]

In 1941 german air losses spiked to the level never seen before or after >:D

Write the total numbers of German and Sovjet air losses.

[FuriousMeow]

Like others you give smart advice here in the forum but can you proof your recommendations with a video record? I guess no!

 

[Edited] All you guys, Turban, Klaus, Finkeren, Meow, etc., just show with a video what you're talking about. It's 1000 times more worth than your words, but we're still waiting for it...

 

I don't record my fights, so no I can't right now. I haven't ever recorded fights, but I'll go ahead and do it now for the special snowflakes. It's funny how it's BS just because maybe you aren't as capable as you thought.

 

Also, all of your German Ace Knight heros that had hundreds of kills and "prove" that the German machinery is best - they were shot down many times.

Edited November 4, 2016 by SYN_Haashashin

[StG2_Manfred]

I don't record my fights, so no I can't right now. I haven't ever recorded fights, but I'll go ahead and do it now for the special snowflakes. It's funny how it's BS just because maybe you aren't as capable as you thought.

 

Also, all of your German Ace Knight heros that had hundreds of kills and "prove" that the German machinery is best - they were shot down many times.

Looking forward for your records, but I guess this is only smart talk. Please proof me wrong, I take you by your word...

[FuriousMeow]

Looking forward for your records, but I guess this is only smart talk. Please proof me wrong, I take you by your word...

 

Wait, my word wasn't good enough before. It is quite funny the whining though, never changes. The game may change but the whining doesn't because "I read a book about German aces and they made it sound so easy but it's not - I can't club ze terrible Russians like little babushka seals! Ze game is of ze broke and ze bias to ze Russians!"

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

Can we stop with the smart remarks one to another?? Also profanity is not welcome so please be civil.

 

Also, do not label people. I dont really care if they are german, russian or spanish republicans fans...just do not label people certain way. We all know what Im talking about.

 

Haash

[FuriousMeow]

If we're going to measure completely pointless things like numbers of losses per side, or the always used go to of the "190 vs SpitVb" engagement that proves the 190 accelerates like a rocket, has the speed of a jet and turns like a zero... to say that the German planes should be so much better, then here is something that says they must be very good.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Even the most novice pilot here has more flight time than a typical rookie Soviet pilot in 1941, we fly in a climate-controlled environment with plastic controllers, all with no fear of death or capture. Drawing conclusions in such a situation is a fool's errand.

 

You're right and we all agree about this, be sure, but VVS losses stay. If VVS at that time was litterally slaughtered by Lutfwaffe, probably this massacre was not only related to the poor Russian pilots training. We are changing the History here. Probably would have been better a 1944 scenary instead of these 1941-42, you can't change the History just because this is only a game.

 

The best way to balance the game, is (or better was) giving us the option to reserve more slots for VVS on the servers.

 

Now we'll see how we could "repair" this situation that could become really embarassing with Yak-1b.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[StG2_Manfred]

Thanks to a couple of guys here within this forum (

[FuriousMeow]

Thanks to a couple of guys here within this forum (

 

You simply can't be serious. The position you are in is all your doing.

 

I played games in two different German/LuftWaffe only squads, and mostly had a good time but then individuals like you showed up and ruined everything.

Edited November 4, 2016 by FuriousMeow

[Danziger]

I think you guys forget that the reason for so high number of VVS losses was that there was no reaction to the German invasion for quite a time. Stalin disappeared for a week and his commanders didn't dare do anything in his absence. This resulted in an extremely high number of aircraft being captured and destroyed on the ground. I really do not see how that could be counted as combat kills as they never left the ground. The other thing some of you should realise is that the German planes were not the greatest ever made. If they were such amazing planes why did they keep losing all the time? They lose to Soviets. They lose to Britain. They lose to Americans. The only planes the German designs had an easy time with were the far outdated planes in Spain, France, and Poland. Just because they could easily beat old designs in the beginning of the war doesn't mean they are so far superior to later designs of other nations. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by BorysVorobyov

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

If VVS at that time was litterally slaughtered by Lutfwaffe, probably this massacre was not only related to the poor Russian pilots training. We are changing the History here. Probably would have been better a 1944 scenary instead of these 1941-42, you can't change the History just because this is only a game.

You are not changing history, jeez. You are achieving different results in completely different environment. This is flight sim for Christs sake, which means you do not fly a real plane, you do not experience loads on your body and you are able to control your aircraft in ways real pilots could not (tweaking 109 stabilizer when its assigned to same axis as stick, extending flaps with a switch on throttle/joystick instead of rotating a wheel with that third hand pilots had, etc.)

What you have is a different result from different equation.

 

Second thing is the fact that aircraft performance is only one bit of whole puzzle and relatively smaller when aircraft of similar performances are compared in cramped environment like Eastern front (where most of the combat occurred down low). In real combat what matters is not only individual pilot skill which is predominant in our virtual flights but skill of the whole group and ability to co-operate and communicate together, which is something that takes years to master - a team of individuals will be beaten by a team of people who work together. German pilots in some units were flying for years together and they had against themselves units comprised of new and old VVS pilots who were thrown to frontlines with very limited time to practice together. 

To this one should add tactics in which Luftwaffe had edge over VVS, again due to years of practice and experience. 

 

I have yet to see a coordinated battle of more than 20 aircraft in the same place, to say the least, I havent seen a single squadron (even from those "Pro" squadrons) forming divisions and wings. When it comes to combat, pairs break and furball is created, a lot then depends on individual skills rather than anything else. 

 

For one I would love to see in this sim a group of people who would go further than to fly every evening, but form pairs, divisions and wing and work as a team. But even based on that I'd not draw conclusions and call for "changing history" experiences.

 

 

 

France

 

Sidenote Borys, French aircraft were not outdated except for one flying bus, called Amiot

Edited November 4, 2016 by =LD=Hiromachi

[Danziger]

True. Most people look at the MiG-3 and somehow think it's a cheap Russian copy of the P-40 (XP-37 design) but I honestly see a lot more in common with the Dewoitine D.520 and actually plan to do a 520 skin for the MiG

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Also the MiG doesn't have a "long nose" it just has a set-back cockpit. Check out this MiG with central-mounted cockpit.

Edited November 4, 2016 by BorysVorobyov

[Frequent_Flyer]

Write the total numbers of German and Sovjet air losses.

Who care what the Germans lost on the Eastern Front, the Luftwaffe losses on he Western Front were greater. Clearly the VVS aircraft were not the Luftwaffe biggest problem. 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'd rather say that MiG-3 had a lot more in common with Arsenal VG-33, at least by the look at it

 

Also, I have already posted once a very good explanation on the reasons why German pilots achieved such big scores while many of their Soviet competitors died or scored just a small % of what Luftwaffe pilot could:

 

 

A.S. It is well known that the Germans frequently built a group of fighters as an ace and his “support and cover team”. How often did the Germans employ this method and what, in your view, were the shortcomings of this method of conduct of battle?

N.G. In the first half of the war, the Germans very broadly employed the tactic “one or two fight and six provide cover”. This also occurred at the end of the war, but significantly less often. Of the most well known who worked with a “cover group”, in the Far North we had Müller. [Rudolph Müller, JG 5, 94 victories, shot down and captured on 19 April 1943—JG]

Later, when the Luftwaffe began to experience a serious shortage of fighter aircraft, they were forced to abandon this method. They had already expended a large quantity of serviceable aircraft. It seems that the pilots who were tied down in covering the ace were unable to do anything else.

When they attacked our bombers, we, naturally, were providing cover. When we became more experienced, we did not bother with the cover group but immediately organized an attack on the ace. The rest of them, all of his “team”, abandoned the bombers and threw themselves on us, which was precisely what we wanted. Our primary mission was to protect the bombers and, it turned out, that the Germans by their own tactics helped us to accomplish our mission. Of course, one could amass an astronomical personal score by this method, with the assistance of a team. But from the point of view of strategy, this method was a failure.

In general this method can be employed, but only if you have serious numerical superiority, along with a “free hunt”. Near the end of the war, we began to fly “free hunt” more frequently. We had numerical superiority, which permitted us to do this. We went out in fours, as a rule, but at tree-top level. We already knew where their lines of communication were and where transport aircraft flew. We went out, struck at them, and immediately departed the area. We did not fly on “free hunt” when we were few in number.

 

A.S. Tell us, Nikolay Gerasimovich, what were the weak aspects of German fighter pilots in 1942?

N.G. They had none of the weaknesses that hit you in the face. They were very calculating and did not like to take risks. They liked to get kills. They really made money on this.

 

A.S. This was a shortcoming?

N.G. Often, yes. We also got paid for our kills, but for us this bounty was the least of our concerns. It was not that way for the Germans. If they shot someone down, they received money. If they did not discard their drop tanks, they also got paid.

 

A.S. Was it common for them not to discard their drop tanks?

N.G. Yes, frequently. Several times we were attacked by German fighters still holding their drop tanks and we couldn’t understand why the pilot did not drop his tank before an attack. Then POWs explained that they paid something for a drop tank brought back—its full value or a fraction of their full value. This is how they conducted aerial combat: to make sure to shoot someone down and remain untouched themselves.

 

A.S. What’s so bad about that?

N.G. Often, in order to be victorious, one has to risk it all and tilt the battle in one’s own favor. But the Germans did not like to take risks. If they felt that the battle was equal or was just beginning to develop not in their favor, they preferred to withdraw from combat more quickly.

 

A.S. Well, that’s correct. The next time they might win it all.

N.G. It depends! There are times when situation does not repeat itself. There are such battles when one must fight to the death—there will be no “next time”.

 

A.S. Can you give us an example?

N.G. The defense of a facility or convoy against the attack of bombers, or escorting one’s own bombers. Here you die, you provide the escort, without any “next time”.

And just the same German fighter pilots had a single, overarching deficiency. A serious shortcoming, in my opinion.

The Germans could be engaged in battle when it was entirely unnecessary. For example, during the escorting of their own bombers. The whole war we took advantage of this. One group tied down the escort fighters in combat, attracting the fighters to themselves, while the other group attacked the German bombers.

The Germans jumped at a chance for a kill. They abandoned the bombers immediately and ignored the fact that our other group would shoot down the bombers, so long as we had the strength.

 

A.S. I didn’t think the German escorts would be so careless.

N.G. Well, how else could we, flying Hurricanes, shoot down the German bombers? Had they covered their bombers like we protected ours, we never would have gotten to them.

Overall, I got the impression that bombers were not a priority in the Luftwaffe. Their priority was fighters and then reconnaissance. One had unbelievable freedom of action and the other had the very best cover. But bombers, this was a “flat iron”. Hey, they have gunners—they fend off attackers or they don’t—whatever happens, it’s on them.

Formally, the Germans escorted their attack formations very heavily, but just get involved in battle and poof—the cover evaporated. It was relatively easy to distract them and it remained so for the entire war.

At the beginning of the war, in one of these distraction engagements, the Germans were lured away unbelievably easily, because our fighters were always in the minority and in technical and tactical characteristics were less capable.

The likelihood that the German pilots would shoot someone down was high. They were glad to become engaged in any battle, just give them a reason. It was clear that they were paid very good money for each victory. This cavalierness surprises me to this day.

 

A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, you have implied that by the end of the war the German pilots openly disregarded their duties for covering troops and facilities. How was this manifested?

N.G. An example. We were escorting shturmoviks. German fighters showed up and circled around but did not attack. They were too few in number. Our Il-2s were working over the front line area—the Germans still did not attack. They concentrated and brought in fighters from other sectors. The Il-2s departed from the target area just as the Germans launched their attack. By this time the Germans had concentrated and had gained numerical superiority of 3:1. What was the sense in this attack? The Il-2s had already done their work. Only for personal score. This happened often.

 

A.S. Wow!

N.G. Yes, and there were even more interesting cases.

 

A.S. More interesting?

N.G. The Germans had a habit of circling around us but not attacking. They were not fools; their intelligence was working. Red-nosed Airacobras belonged to the 2d GIAP VVS KSF [Guards Fighter Air Regiment, Air Forces of Red-Banner Northern Fleet]. They were not about to lose their heads by tangling with the elite Guards. They might get shot down. It was better to wait around for easier prey. Very calculating.

 

A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, in you view, what explains the tendency of German pilots toward enlargement of their personal score?

N.G. To us it was crazy. You know, when we shot down Müller, they brought him in to us. I remember him well. Average height, athletic build, red-haired. We were surprised that he was only an oberfeldvebel [master sergeant]. This was an ace with more than 90 victories! I still remember how surprising it was to learn that his father was a simple tailor.

Well, this Müller, when we asked him about Hitler, declared that politics did not motivate him; he did not have any hatred toward Russians. He was a “sportsman”; results were important to him and he wanted to shoot down more. His “cover group” engaged in combat and he, the “sportsman”, struck or did not strike as he pleased.

I got the impression that many German fighter pilots were just such “sportsmen”. It was all about money and glory.

 

A.S. Well, let’s agree that for the German fighter pilots—“sportsmen”—the war was a form of sport. What was the war for our pilots, for you personally?

N.G. It was the same for me as for all the rest. Work. Back-breaking, bloody, dirty, fearsome, and never-ending work. To withstand which was possible only because we were defending the Motherland. It was nothing close to a sport.

 

A.S. Nikolay Gerasimovich, it is a well-known fact that in the Luftwaffe, especially in the second half of the war, very often German fighter pilots had the right of independent selection of the place and time of combat. A kind of freedom of action that Allied fighter pilots could not even dream of. In your view, was this a strength of the German fighter command or, conversely, a weakness?

N.G. This was a “loophole”—an attempt to interest the fighter pilots to operate more actively. By all accounts, this measure did not bring any positive results.

Bear in mind that a pilot does not want to fly into those situations where the fate of the war will be decided. They order him to go there because he would not go there on his own. By human nature everyone wants to be a survivor. And “freedom” gives the fighter pilot the “legal” possibility to avoid these places. A “loophole” is transformed into a “hole”.

“Free hunt” was the most preferred method of conduct of the war for a pilot and the least preferred for his army. Why? Because the interests of the rank-and-file pilot almost always basically diverged from the interests both of his own command and of the commander of the forces that his aviation unit supported.

To give complete freedom of actions to all the fighter pilots would be the same as giving complete freedom to all the infantry soldiers on the battlefield. Go where you want, dig in where you want, and shoot when you want. This is absurd. An infantryman cannot know where and when he is most needed because he cannot possibly see the battlefield as a whole.

The same is true of the fighter pilot—the foot soldier of the air war. He could rarely determine correctly both the place and time that he was most needed. A simple rule applied here—the fewer fighter planes (and airplanes in general) one had, the more centralized had to be their command and control. Not the reverse. Fewer in number but employed only in those places were needed and only at the time required, not distracted to the accomplishment of secondary tasks.

It must be said that in the Luftwaffe “free hunt” was used very often in the first half of the war when they had numerical superiority, and less in the second half of the war. One cannot disregard the “free hunt” as a legitimate tactic. In some sectors German “hunters” inflicted significant losses on us, particularly in transport aircraft.

It should also be stated that after the aerial battles on the “Blue Line” [Kuban, summer 1943—JG], the Luftwarffe gradually lost overall air superiority. Toward the end of the war, when air superiority had been completely lost, “free hunt” remained the only method of conduct of battle by German fighter aviation by which they obtained any kind of positive result. In places away from the principal contested areas, they would occasionally “catch” someone. By this time it had become a matter of inflicting a loss—any loss—on the enemy. These “hunts” could not possibly have any effect on the outcome of the war.

 

A.S. Yes, but the scores of the aces were in the hundreds. Wasn’t there a direct relationship: “the more you shot down, the greater losses you inflicted on the enemy, and the more it contributed toward victory”?

N.G. No,  that direct relationship did not exist. Everything was caught up in the priority of missions. The Germans had this problem throughout the war and never did resolve it properly.

Here is an example for you. During the escort of their own bombers German fighter pilots were constantly distracted and got tangled up in secondary aerial engagements. It turns out that the Luftwaffe command, when it prioritized missions to its pilots, gave protection of their own bombers and destruction of enemy aircraft the same priority. Under these circumstances, the German fighter pilots chose to get kills. How this all came out in the end—you know.

 

Source: http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/golodnikov/part4.htm

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Hiromachi, have you joined FNQF, FNBF or SNBF by any chance? Try to hop on next week if you have the time.

 

On FNBF we were being overran and shot down like flies until we started coordinating out of need. We formed strike groups of 4-6 Il-2s with 2-4 close escort, nearly all from the 216th, while 4-8 pilots from the Polish 307th squadron did sweeps at the target area keeping us informed of enemy movements. That way the enemy fighters suffered losses because they only fought fighters, and the bombers were nearly always not engaged. We ended the campaign before the Axis could even see Stalingrad because of that, it was a great experience.

[216th_Jordan]

I haven't done tests myself, but it's just that i noticed on several occasions in MP. I bounce a Yak, pass it, climb away and the Yak follows me with less energy and keeps shooting for ages even hanging from it's prop and continuing to shoot at me

 

That surely never happend when I was flying the Yak

 

I ran some tests and put together this little video showing the results of prophang on Bf-109-F4 and Yak-1, respectively with full and almost no fuel.

Disclaimer: This is not meant to 'prove' anything, but just to give a rough example.

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by 216th_Jordan