Developer Diary, Part 137 - Discussion

[manitouguy]

Can't you just turn those off by pressing h key (hud) ? Or is that just on some servers?

[kissklas]

Well... Simulation is about simulating the world. Another thing is how you present this to the user through the two way communication that is game interaction. The majority of actual simulation is done behind the curtain. The fact that actions are generalized or automated to make usage intuitive does not represent the complexity of the simulation.

 

I would of course love to have full control of every single thing in an aircraft, but the features that are currently automated does not ruin much of the experience of the main focus which is war and combat.

 

This game ticks all the simulator boxes. Just because features are automated does not mean it's not simulated.

[RAY-EU]

Playable Infantry Online Will be Great . For air , sea & land :

 

[Jade_Monkey]

The engines are very different, and have different strengths.

I love the ground ambiance in Arma, but it's probably not a good engine for a realistic flight sim.

[fergal69]

Great & exciting news.

 

Thanks for the work you guys are putting in.

 

German paratroopers - my first thought was why not the FG42 rather than the MP40 due to the nature of the sim having the odd overlooked planes, ie. HS129, JU52, etc.

[Gunsmith86]

Great & exciting news.

 

Thanks for the work you guys are putting in.

 

German paratroopers - my first thought was why not the FG42 rather than the MP40 due to the nature of the sim having the odd overlooked planes, ie. HS129, JU52, etc.

Because there were only a view FG42 build in 1942 and it was never build in large numbers later

[Finkeren]

German paratroopers - my first thought was why not the FG42 rather than the MP40 due to the nature of the sim having the odd overlooked planes, ie. HS129, JU52, etc.

Other than the fact, that the FG 42 was never that common, you also wouldn't jump carrying a full size rifle, not even a Kar98.

 

An SMG or an M1 carbine with a folding stock, sure (even though the Fallschirmjäger only carried pistols during the jump) but I think the FG 42 is just too large.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I think the modeling of the paratrooper is very nice and will look great but I wonder about its inclusion.  Were there any German airborne drops in Russia?  I thought Crete was pretty much the last actual drop.

[Jade_Monkey]

I think the modeling of the paratrooper is very nice and will look great but I wonder about its inclusion.  Were there any German airborne drops in Russia?  I thought Crete was pretty much the last actual drop.

because it gives the ju52 a purpose, together with other drops of supplies.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

because it gives the ju52 a purpose, together with other drops of supplies.

I think the Ju-52 has plenty of purpose without paratroopers; bringing in reinforcements, medical evac, supply transport.  Did the Germans drop supplies by parachute?  I assume they did.  I think that would be a real nice feature and probably easier to model.

Edited October 30, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[Gunsmith86]

I think the modeling of the paratrooper is very nice and will look great but I wonder about its inclusion.  Were there any German airborne drops in Russia?  I thought Crete was pretty much the last actual drop.

I belive there were some small operations after Crete which mostly used just 2-3 airplanes and i may have read somewere that they sometimes droped near frontline positions were airplanes couldn´t land and troops needed reinforcement quickly.

  Did the Germans drop supplies by parachute?  I assume they did.  I think that would be a real nice feature and probably easier to model.

Yes that was very often done. There were also drop container for bomber which looked like bombs whit parachute so every bomber could be used to supply troops too.

 

First two pictures:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21086-weapons-and-ammunition-and-related-equipment-thread/

Edited October 30, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[Jade_Monkey]

I think the Ju-52 has plenty of purpose without paratroopers; bringing in reinforcements, medical evac, supply transport.  Did the Germans drop supplies by parachute?  I assume they did.  I think that would be a real nice feature and probably easier to model.

 

Why does everything have to be a problem? 

 

I don't envy the devs, no matter what they do someone will complain.

 

The Ju52 is a standalone plane that is not specific to BOS or BOM.

It's also the first transport plane in this game, so I assume the devs wanted to make sure that the gameplay was fun and make the extra money worth it.

 

If you don't want to drop paratroopers over Stalingrad then don't, but let others enjoy this feature.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I think the Ju-52 has plenty of purpose without paratroopers; bringing in reinforcements,

 

That's what paratroopers are there for. Apart from some light artillery and/or ammunition there really isn't much the 52 could carry to resupply troops at the frontline (not to mention air drop).

medical evac,

Since we haven't heard any developer statement about it this will likely depend on mission builders and the capebilities of the mission editor. Would be very interesting to have a mission forcing players to land on nomansland next to a downed aircraft or frontline medical camp for extraction.

supply transport.

Thx to the mission builder every aircraft can effectively do that. The 52 will only be slower and thus less favourable in this role than quicker aircraft. Also supply flights alone get boring quickly on a long term. That's why the 52 definetly needs combat roles in order to suceed.

[G_GART]

After seeing the work in progress of the Fallschirmjäger they remind me of the good old days of plastic model kits.

Just because of its typical grey colour and artificial lighting.

{I couldn't resist myself mentioning the funny similarity}

 

 

It will be quite a challenge the animation when the paratroopers jump out of the plane.

And when they touch the ground will they also sit down in a contemplating way like the bailed out pilots or do they run away to a certain direction?

Probably they are eye candy and will act the same as the pilot and will disappear after a few seconds after they landed, like wreckage and AI planes that are disappearing too!

[Brano]

After operation Mercury's rather disappointing performance of 7.Airborne division (Flieger-Division),german fallschirmjaegers were trained to jump with their personal weapons. During Crete operation many soldiers didn't reach drop containers on time and were rendered useless in combat,or many containers fell into enemy's hands.

On eastern front 7.Airborne joined ground combat as standard infantry in Sept 1941,fighting around Leningrad as typical elite unit "fire brigade".In May 1943 it has been renamed to 1.paratroop division (FjD). In late 1943,2.FjD has been established on Easter front,again,fighting as standard infantry in role of "fire brigade" on Ukraine.

Waffen SS had also their own paratroopers, 500.SS Fallschirmjaegers Battalion. Established in Oct 43 and trained in Serbia and Hungary.They operated shorty in Yugoslavia (operation Rosselsprung - attempt to assassinate J.B.Tito,leader of Yugoslavia Liberation Army) And later as fire brigade of 3.Panzer Army in Baltic states against Soviet offensives of late 1944. After suffering heavy losses,remaining troops were transferred into newly established 600.SS FjB taking part in several adventurous undertakings of Otto Skorzeny in Budapest and Ardennes. At the end they fought on Oder river in last desperate attempts to slow down Soviet drive on Berlin.

[Trooper117]

It would be good to see the paratroopers doing the correct exit from the Ju-52... unlike the allied parachute system, the German system required the soldier to dive head first from the exit position at the door.

[Chief_Mouser]

I think the modeling of the paratrooper is very nice and will look great but I wonder about its inclusion.  Were there any German airborne drops in Russia?  I thought Crete was pretty much the last actual drop.

 

The last use of German paratroopers in action jumping from Ju52s was in November 1943 on the island of Leros in the Dodecanese. A large number of them were killed but they succeeded in splitting the British garrison holding the island in two. I seem to remember reading that it was a fairly low-level drop, so that might account for some of the casualties I suppose. My books are packed away so can't check atm. Cheers.

[Brano]

I would say the last significant operation of FJs with direct parachute drops+gliders was operation Rosselsprung on 25.5.1944 executed by 500.SS FjB + other units.

There is also one disputed operation executed by KG 200 special paratroop units against french resistance in july 1944 (Vercores plateau in Alps). Some sources suggest that these "commandos" were in fact members of 500.FjB.

[Chief_Mouser]

I would say the last significant operation of FJs with direct parachute drops+gliders was operation Rosselsprung on 25.5.1944 executed by 500.SS FjB + other units.

There is also one disputed operation executed by KG 200 special paratroop units against french resistance in july 1944 (Vercores plateau in Alps). Some sources suggest that these "commandos" were in fact members of 500.FjB.

 

Hmm. The book I read must have meant the last operation by Luftwaffe FJs, as opposed to SS, I suppose.

Cheers.

[Juri_JS]

The last Luftwaffe FJ parachute drops happened in December 1944 during Operation Stösser as part of the Ardennes offensive. Around 1300 Fallschirmjäger were involved. The whole operation was a complete disaster.

[Brano]

Ah,ok. I have a book on all FJ units,including Waffen-SS. If Goering had his paratroopers,Himmler couldn't lack behind.At least 50% of 500.SS FjB were individuals from penal unit called Bewahrungsbataillon 500 ,sort of characters you would normally not include in standard unit. It's suggested that nr 500. was chosen for SS FjB from original strafbat.

[Chief_Mouser]

The last Luftwaffe FJ parachute drops happened in December 1944 during Operation Stösser as part of the Ardennes offensive. Around 1300 Fallschirmjäger were involved. The whole operation was a complete disaster.

 

Hadn't heard about that one. If Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_St%C3%B6sser is to believed it was an absolute shambles - 

 

Many of the men assigned to Heydte had never jumped out of an airplane before.

Probably stretching it a bit to call some of those guys Fallschirmjäger!

Cheers.

[Livai]

- SSAO was replaced by TSSAO, this has shrunk expenses for this effect calculation;

 

TSSAO using still AO (Ambient Occlusion)? Why?

 

- Ambient Occlusion (AO) is physically incorrect!

Image + inverted Black&White Image = Ambient Occlusion (AO) -> 

Never loved Ambient Occlusion (AO) because there is no Ambient Occlusion (AO)! Never was physically accurate or realistic and never will be but it is cheap & fast!

 

Why this effect can not be created from the light source how the light hit the surface what is physically correct? 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Superghostboy

[kissklas]

Actually... Screen space Ambient occlusion is a way of reproducing contact shadow real time inexpensively. Try putting your coffee mug on the table. See that contact shadow? It places the objects better in the environment, and ssao will do so dynamically. Actually, baked Ambient occlusion are usually not physically calculated even in 3d viz. Yet it is a great tool to create space. I like it.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Why does everything have to be a problem?

 

No problem. You said:

 

because it gives the ju52 a purpose

 

I'm saying the Ju-52 already has purpose.  That's all.

 

As far as paratroopers, it will be fun to see them, maybe even drop them.  Some will even enjoy shooting at them.

 

When the devs introduce a plane that is inconsistent with a battle, it's a major cluster on the forums.  Paratroopers just seem a little odd on the Eastern Front, that's all.

Edited October 31, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[SharpeXB]

It would be good to see the paratroopers doing the correct exit from the Ju-52... unlike the allied parachute system, the German system required the soldier to dive head first from the exit position at the door.

Yeah I hope to see that too

[MadisonV44]

It won't. Maybe allowing Super Sampling to be run, but the issue is pixel size/monitors using pixels and keeping a high level of detail at further range than most other games. If they went with a lower level of detail (less detailed terrain) beyond a certain range so it uses much bigger/blurrier details then that would get rid of it. It is an unfortunate side effect of monitors using pixels and maintaining a high level of texture detail at further range that can't be displayed well due to monitors using pixels. Unless pixel size on monitors goes nano sized this effect will be present on any game maintaining high level of detail at further ranges. It isn't aliasing in the terms of a 3D object, it's just trying to get high details in where the monitor pixel size is just too big to accommodate the details being displayed.

Thanks for the reply FuriousMeow. Bad news if this cannot be fixed ... My perception is that it is more related to conception of the BOS map itself because it is smoother on BOM. So the last hope would a a rework of the map rendering itself ? Anyway if you are right, my card is too weak to allow me to use DSR and I don't plan to upgrade soon unless it would be a very noticeable change in visibility. 

[FuriousMeow]

Thanks for the reply FuriousMeow. Bad news if this cannot be fixed ... My perception is that it is more related to conception of the BOS map itself because it is smoother on BOM. So the last hope would a a rework of the map rendering itself ? Anyway if you are right, my card is too weak to allow me to use DSR and I don't plan to upgrade soon unless it would be a very noticeable change in visibility. 

 

It is simply the details of the textures that are variable, and the contrasting differences. It's present in all games, I have it at the highest settings using 1.5X SuperSampling in Elite Dangerous just in the internals of stations at 2560x1440.

 

It's just an unfortunate side effect of higher detail textures when the distance/range and angle from the "camera" (player) are such that way too many details are trying to be displayed in in a single monitor pixel (which 1 pixel = 1 color) so that leads to "shimmer" with the textures which you can find on Google everyone complains about it in all games.

 

Even 16x Anisotropic still has it, and that's the highest that can be set in nVidia Control Panel - and that's the best texture filtering available right now. 32x maybe can be forced with AMD, not sure, but Anisotropic filtering can be a costly hit on performance at higher levels.

 

Revisiting and re-texturing could reduce it with the BoS map but that will lead to loss of quality/blurrier textures where the "shimmering" occurs. So it's a question of shimmering at certain "distances" or blurry textures at those same "distances" which can also lead to disparate levels of detail causing some things to be more detailed than others.

 

It's a very fine line/difficult balance for texture artists to achieve, and it can have impacts across all graphics settings so at high levels the shimmering is present while at medium levels there isn't any at the same "range" but getting rid of the shimmering at high levels can lead to an awful blurry mess at medium ranges - and resolution also has a play in it. The higher the resolution, the more details have to be fit into a smaller monitor area which looks great "up close" - to the camera/player - but causes shimmering as the camera/player moves away from those highly detailed textures while at lower resolution it isn't present until the textures are much, much further away because there is less high detail texture being placed in a smaller area. 2560x1440 - more sharp details and larger viewing of the "world" with sharper textures but shimmering is present, (more detail across less pixels) 800x600 - less sharp details, less viewing area of the "world" and textures are spread out over a larger viewing area so they aren't as "crisp" but less to no shimmering at certain viewing distances/angles because the monitor isn't displaying as many details in the same number of pixels (less detail across more pixels).

 

With that said, the performance boost from DX11 may allow running of Super Sampling that can help reduce some shimmering - but I don't want to hype that because it may not result in what you are expecting and I don't want to get hopes up. However, keep in mind that isn't just how powerful your card is as texture shimmering occurs simply because monitors use small pixels to display individual colors so there will always be a bit of an edge it just depends on how well those individual pixels in the monitor blend with the neighboring pixel in the monitor display.

Edited November 2, 2016 by FuriousMeow

[FuriousMeow]

TSSAO using still AO (Ambient Occlusion)? Why?

 

- Ambient Occlusion (AO) is physically incorrect!

Image + inverted Black&White Image = Ambient Occlusion (AO) -> 

Never loved Ambient Occlusion (AO) because there is no Ambient Occlusion (AO)! Never was physically accurate or realistic and never will be but it is cheap & fast!

 

Why this effect can not be created from the light source how the light hit the surface what is physically correct? 

 

Because lighting is incredibly expensive hardware wise.

[Gambit21]

Yep, just posted about this in the DCS thread in free subject.

Physically correct lighting, reflections, shadows means simulating and calculating all those photons (simulated) bouncing around.

Incredibly expensive as you said...even in a 3D program we often use ambient occlusion for still scenes even when no animation is required, as it

adds another layer of believably/depth to the scene even on top of the other lighting.

 

"physically incorrect" isn't exactly true - it's just not physically 'complete'

 

Gotta love ghost boys' histrionics though.

[Livai]

Because lighting is incredibly expensive hardware wise.

 

If you intregrate it into the Deferred Shading Pipeline it shrunk expenses for this effect calculation. The result is still a much higher quality lighting than TSSAO or SSAO!  This algorithm shares many implementation details with the standard SSAO or TSSAO, such as rendering at reduced resolution, edge-preserving filtering and up-sampling. What makes it a simple drop-in replacement for SSAO or TSSAO using the existing rendering pipelines.

 

Why TSSAO where DSSDO deliver much more better results? This game engine use many local light sources where this algorithm fits here very well. Motivation?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Superghostboy

[LukeFF]

Why TSSAO where DSSDO deliver much more better results? This game engine use many local light sources where this algorithm fits here very well. Motivation?

Because the developers know the game's engine and its capabilities better than you do?

Edited November 2, 2016 by LukeFF

[Gambit21]

Because the developers know the game's engine and its capabilities better than you do?

Beat me to it.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Gambit21

[Livai]

Because the developers know the game's engine and its capabilities better than you do?

 

Hahahahahaha, without the construction manual hard to say where my capabilities starts and ends! Let's say; "There are no limits. Just push it to the limits. If there are limits keep pushing further & beyond the limits!"  This way I increased my capabilities.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

Oh I think you're demostrating where they end - no manual necessary

 

 

Edit: but by all means if you have insight into their engine and how it specifically handles defered rendering (if even possible) in relation to memory overhead, semi-transparent materials, anti-aliasing etc, do enlighten us.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Gambit21

[FuriousMeow]

 

If you intregrate it into the Deferred Shading Pipeline it shrunk expenses for this effect calculation. The result is still a much higher quality lighting than TSSAO or SSAO!  This algorithm shares many implementation details with the standard SSAO or TSSAO, such as rendering at reduced resolution, edge-preserving filtering and up-sampling. What makes it a simple drop-in replacement for SSAO or TSSAO using the existing rendering pipelines.

 

Why TSSAO where DSSDO deliver much more better results? This game engine use many local light sources where this algorithm fits here very well. Motivation?

 

[Gambit21]

...and ironically a bit more coherent!

[MadisonV44]

With that said, the performance boost from DX11 may allow running of Super Sampling that can help reduce some shimmering - 

 

This could be the solution to upgrade up to 1.5x SuperSampling without changing my GPU ...

Thanks FuriousMeow   

[tailwheel]

I'm thinking that my 1070 is going to be getting a bit more of a workout this coming year!

Yes I'm getting one of those specifically for this game. In fact my entire rig was purchased for this game (and Star Citizen). Will be nice to see what this game looks like going through a 1070.yaaa hoooo!

After seeing the work in progress of the Fallschirmjäger they remind me of the good old days of plastic model kits.

Just because of its typical grey colour and artificial lighting.

{I couldn't resist myself mentioning the funny similarity}

 

 

 

 

 

It will be quite a challenge the animation when the paratroopers jump out of the plane.

And when they touch the ground will they also sit down in a contemplating way like the bailed out pilots or do they run away to a certain direction?

 

OMG it would be awesome if on Halloween they assembled and did the thriller choreography. Ha ha I can almost feel the heat from the hard liners ;-)

[tailwheel]

Luke FF

 

This,

 

 

 

And as Han says, how seriously the player treats his role,

 is why there has to be an option to disable the Techno chat from the server side, for those of us who do take it seriously. Its what separates a game from a simulator (a simulator has NO pilot aids, and strives to be as realistic as possible)

 

I love the way in the video he has to look at the lever positions, and switches just to start it, then monitor the gauges during the flight.

Why would you want to spoil the immersion by having Techno/hint boxes on the screen is beyond me?

I get a great deal of satisfaction by flying without them.

So well done the Devs for creating such a beautiful and well crafted and realistic Sim (game!)

 

Totally agree, I normally fly without them. But during 'training' or getting to know the 'hardware' it is nice to have the tech info on until I know what the machinery is doing. I would never have guessed to set the mix to less than 100% other than at high alt.

 

One suggestion: on the 190, there is an indent when the throttle is put in emergency. Could we get an audible click when we move past that position in either direction? The real pilots would feel it and we don't get that.

It would also be nice if there were some way to get a better sense of altitude when under 20' off the ground. I often think I'm higher than I actually am and touch the ground before I expect to. even a tiny grey number in the corner, when below 20' would work for me.