Why LW lose all the missions on WoL

[No601_Swallow]

L...ook at the stats on EU random expert , Blue side destroyed much more targets. Problem on WOL is player seeking instant dogfight action , not "objective driven mission" ... Blue side loose because looking at your stats in a mirror saying yourself you shot down plenty of ennemies is more rewarding than saying you just destroyed 40 AI or static buildings with bombs...

 

 

This is off-topic, but anyway. Here's the thing I don't understand. When people complain about "WOL" or "EU random expert", it's like they're complaining about the game itself. Honestly, if you don't like a server or the missions it's running, why not throw up your own server (easy to do) and put a few or your missions up, with your own choice of difficulty settings, objectives, planesets, etc. The more people or squadrons that do this, the  better everything is. More or less...

 

Whatever! As I understand it, it's now (in 2.004) possible to make all gunners rookie, normal, expert or ace (or whatever the four levels are called), since they'll now match the AI pilot's level. But as always, it'll take time for mission builders to get around to updating their missions (if at all).  For MP, aren't human-piloted bombers all "normal" (Or did I dream of reading that somewhere?  )?

 

I know diagonal slashing attacks are frustrating because you have a tiny fraction of a second in which to fire, but they really do keep you safe... [in my humbles, obviously!]

 

In any case, the advice to fly an opposition aeroplane before complaining about your own favourite ride is, I think, good advice. When I'm in a 190, I generally get shot down (after I've missed a target on the first pass). When I'm in a Yak attacking the 190, he just zooms away out of reach and then comes down and shags me into next Tuesday. In the immortal words of St. Oleg of the Two Weeks, maybe for the type of sim pilot I am, I can complain about the aeroplanes, but perhaps the answer lies "within"...

Edited October 24, 2016 by No601_Swallow

[Y-29.Silky]

How many times have you've actually flown the Pe-2? 
It's probably the a/c I have most of my time in so I can assure you,
it's not as nearly as easy as you describe.
One of my latest sorties I remember I spontaneously exploded from a Bf-109 pass, so I assure you, those 20mm still kill. 
And trust me, keeping that heavy bird in the air with damaged engines is almost impossible.
 
To put it in perspective, lets look at some historical facts concerning the top Luftwaffe aces on the Eastern front.. 

Pe-2 Kills: 

Hartmann: 6/352 
Barkhorn: 6/301 
Nowotny: 2/258
Kurpinski: 4/197 
Graf: 2/212
 
To say an a/c shouldn't be in a simulator because it's hard to deal with vs being historically accurate is a hilarious argument, can we remove the Bf-109F4? Because that's a nightmare to deal with.
 
The real reason why the Luftwaffe always loses is because most Luftwaffe pilots hop in a Bf-109 and expect a turkey shoot against inferior aircraft.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Y-29.Silky

[ShamrockOneFive]

How many times have you've actually flown the Pe-2? 

It's probably the a/c I have most of my time in so I can assure you,

it's not as nearly as easy as you describe.

One of my latest sorties I remember I spontaneously exploded from a Bf-109 pass, so I assure you, those 20mm still kill. 

And trust me, keeping that heavy bird in the air with damaged engines is almost impossible.

 

To put it in perspective, lets look at some historical facts concerning the top Luftwaffe aces on the Eastern front.. 

 

Pe-2 Kills: 

 

Hartmann: 6/352 

Barkhorn: 6/301 

Nowotny: 2/258

Kurpinski: 4/197 

Graf: 2/212

 

To say an a/c shouldn't be in a simulator because it's hard to deal with vs being historically accurate is a hilarious argument, can we remove the Bf-109F4? Because that's a nightmare to deal with.

 

The real reason why the Luftwaffe always loses is because most Luftwaffe pilots hop in a Bf-109 and expect a turkey shoot against inferior aircraft.

Thanks for pulling the stats. Considering the mass kills that these German aces had and the prolific presence that the Pe-2 had... I would have assumed they each would have had a higher proportion assigned to the Pe-2. That is interesting and fascinating!

 

As for WoL stats. I noticed that the top 10 players for ground kills has 7 predominantly Red players in the top scores, 2 for Blue and 1 player doesn't have a side assigned (I'm assuming that means he's pretty even on both teams). If we extend that to 20 players then it gets even worse (12 red, 6 blue, 2 no allegiance). It's tough to discern their survivability from the stats available so I don't know how well they are doing.

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/pilots/?tour=15&sort_by=-gk_total

 

So I'm curious the why many of the top ground kills are scored by players on the one side. Pointing a finger at one plane seems to not make sense to me in this context so I would assume there are a complex series of variables. I'd be interested to know how many Blue vs Red players are surviving their missions (in stats - not feelings).

 

One more interesting piece. Looking at the monthly score (I'm looking at September as October isn't over yet)... we see that shot down aircraft is roughly even. Ground targets destroyed slightly favours red as does the score. Blue team has more flying hours. So Blue is flying more hours with an even air to air exchange but poorer ground results.

[Feathered_IV]

Pe-2 Kills: 

 

Hartmann: 6/352 

Barkhorn: 6/301 

Nowotny: 2/258

Kurpinski: 4/197 

Graf: 2/212

 

 

Wow.  Looks like the real jagdwaffe wasn't following the mission goals too much either! 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, people don't seem to consider that the seria.87 has an actual turret, and thereby the most advanced ingame turret of any bomber. 

When people compare the B-17 to the Pe-2, they are not completely incorrect. 

 

The UBS has a higher rate of fire and a more powerful cartridge and heavier, more accurate barrels as well as reflector sights. So I guess the Pe-2 rear turret wouldn't be much worse when compared to a B-17, despite the lack of one gun.  

The Gunner, unlike on the German Aircraft is also protected by the fuel tanks, so the effective frontal area of him is reduced by 50-65%, while the german gunners, if unarmored, sit almost completely exposed in the open fuselage. 

The Peshka Pilot also sits in a very well armoured seat, making him a difficult target. 

 

The high speed of the Pe-2 also prolongs the time enemy fighters are exposed to defensive fire. 

 

Dead 6 attacks are therefore very stupid. however, the major weakspot  is the belly. Attacks on the belly tend to kill both gunners quickly and quite often killes the Pilots as well. 

Should the Peshka hit the Deck, overtake it and attack the sides, which tends to kill either crew or one engine rather quickly. 

There is nothing special about killing a Pe-2, just don't underestimate it. 

 

When flying German Bombers I tend to go to at least to 5k-6k and Level Bomb. That's the most reliable way of hitting and killing targets. A Formation of two heavy Ju-88s can destroy an entire target without ever being engaged. 

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sorties/78/6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann/?tour=2

[wtornado]

@@6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

 

 

 

The Gunner, unlike on the German Aircraft is also protected by the fuel tanks

 

 

I would not find that very comforting being shot at and protected by fuel tanks

Edited October 25, 2016 by WTornado

[ShamrockOneFive]

@@6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

 

 

 

 

 

I would not find that very comforting being shot at and protected by fuel tanks

 

It's not as bad as it sounds. AvGas itself doesn't tend to ignite very easily as its been explained to me many times... Its the fuel vapours that cause bad things to happen. I'm not sure if the Pe-2 has an exhaust feed to keep the vapours down but if it does then the fuel tank back there is reasonable protection.

[Wulf]

Well, people don't seem to consider that the seria.87 has an actual turret, and thereby the most advanced ingame turret of any bomber. 

When people compare the B-17 to the Pe-2, they are not completely incorrect. 

 

The UBS has a higher rate of fire and a more powerful cartridge and heavier, more accurate barrels as well as reflector sights. So I guess the Pe-2 rear turret wouldn't be much worse when compared to a B-17, despite the lack of one gun.  

The Gunner, unlike on the German Aircraft is also protected by the fuel tanks, so the effective frontal area of him is reduced by 50-65%, while the german gunners, if unarmored, sit almost completely exposed in the open fuselage. 

The Peshka Pilot also sits in a very well armoured seat, making him a difficult target. 

 

The high speed of the Pe-2 also prolongs the time enemy fighters are exposed to defensive fire. 

 

Dead 6 attacks are therefore very stupid. however, the major weakspot  is the belly. Attacks on the belly tend to kill both gunners quickly and quite often killes the Pilots as well. 

Should the Peshka hit the Deck, overtake it and attack the sides, which tends to kill either crew or one engine rather quickly. 

There is nothing special about killing a Pe-2, just don't underestimate it. 

 

When flying German Bombers I tend to go to at least to 5k-6k and Level Bomb. That's the most reliable way of hitting and killing targets. A Formation of two heavy Ju-88s can destroy an entire target without ever being engaged. 

http://72ag-ded.ru/en/sorties/78/6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann/?tour=2

 

 

If you're suggesting a Pe 2 would have had about the same chance of survival as an attacking fighter in an actual one-on-one encounter you're entering the realms of 'magical thinking'.   Same with a B 17 if it comes to that, or any other bomber for that matter.  On their own bombers stood almost no chance at all.  Their only real  hope depended on concentrated defensive fire from their formation.  Anything else is essentially comic book BS.

[JtD]

Wow.  Looks like the real jagdwaffe wasn't following the mission goals too much either!

If you would bother to look up Luftwaffe claims in the East you'd find that Pe-2's were claimed in the thousands and that the aircraft claimed most often was the Il-2.

 

And regarding Silky's original point - there were several Luftwaffe pilots who made ace in a day with the Pe-2. At least one guy, Jennewein, did it twice.

Edited October 25, 2016 by JtD

[ACG_KaiLae]

STALINWOOD.... balancing has made red planes/ballistics OP. Takes out popcorn and starts munching.

 

I see your stalinwood, and raise you a hitlermetal:

 

[Lusekofte]

What I read about the PE 2, tells me it was a brick to fly. Very hard controls, female pilots had their navigator behind to help pull it of the ground by dragging the yoke. I also read it had a lot of peculiar tendencies at low speed , but it was though. Crewe's converting to TU2 told that this was a much better plane to fly. 

This topic is mostly just a sign of frustration, and his feeling is exactly why I stopped flying in public servers. If you not interested in dogfighting there is simply nothing in the long run keeping you there

[ACG_KaiLae]

 

 

 

Every type of VVS modern fighter plane uses their turn signal and park right behind my HE-111 they then put on their hazard lights to make sure my top rear gun(often me heading back to base) sees them

and they shoot my 111 until it turns into a smoking wreck.Sometimes I get the VVS plane to smoke it is there for so long but not always.

 

And you're right no one parks behind my PE-2 or IL-2(going back to base me in the gunner position) in a 109 if they want to live I will make them go down.

 

When I fly a 109 I don't park behind a IL-2 or a PE-2 I know it will get me I fly and use gunner positions in every plane I have .

 

When you fly every plane you have online to test them and for fun you see differences.

 

But,you have to try all the planes and see for yourself.

 

 

The He-111, specifically, has a dead zone directly behind it where it cannot hit you:

 

 

So yeah, if you know what you're doing, you park on his 6. 

[Wulf]

The He-111, specifically, has a dead zone directly behind it where it cannot hit you:

 

 

So yeah, if you know what you're doing, you park on his 6. 

 

 

 In the real world one of the air gunners would probably have suggested to the pilot that he maneuver . 

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Well, people don't seem to consider that the seria.87 has an actual turret, and thereby the most advanced ingame turret of any bomber. 

 

I am pretty sure the turret equipped Peska is faster and got a better climb rate. Different instrumentation also, so in my belief , in reality when adding turret to your PE 2 you also get a newer series. I am sure of this. if it had been Series 87 (witch was not equipped with turret) the extra weight should slow down the aircraft.

 

The He-111, specifically, has a dead zone directly behind it where it cannot hit you:

 

 

It had a fixed gun on its tail, do not think it was effective and I am not sure who operated it , but it was there

[csThor]

 

 

 In the real world one of the air gunners would probably have suggested to the pilot that he maneuver . 

 

 

[Tongue-in-cheek] In the real world the He 111 wouldn't be alone but flying in formation. As such a bunch of other gunners would have no problem shooting at a fighter parking in the dead zone of another bomber. [/Tongue-in-cheek]

[Feathered_IV]

If you would bother to look up Luftwaffe claims in the East...

 

 

I was gonna, but then I got bored and skipped to the end.

[707shap_Srbin]

As for WoL stats.

 

 

It is very different with DED server. Luftwaffe guys are more organised, and winning 2:1.

http://72ag-ded.ru/ru/?tour=2

 

For example, this is rather usual picture:

 

[Trinkof]

It is very different with DED server. Luftwaffe guys are more organised, and winning 2:1.

http://72ag-ded.ru/ru/?tour=2

 

For example, this is rather usual picture:

 

post-227-0-54649200-1477337336.jpg

I tried this earlier .... Without the fantastic screenie , but apparently blaming the pe2 is easier ... Lost cause I guess.

 

On any airfield I spawn on ranom expert + , there is always at least a pair or a shwarm of attacker or bomber preparing for an attack.

 

The other difference might be with il2 stats. On random expert ground kills are much more rewarded with points (top scorers are almost all bombers).

So guys playing for the stats actually play for the mission rather than air kills.

Edited October 25, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[707shap_Srbin]

But on DED, fighters are also important. Without any strong fighter protection, sometimes is very hard to reach the target and bomb it.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Hello all,

 

At the very great risk of adding nothing to this thread , what I find a little frustrating is not so much that VVS fly after many hits causing leaks, black smoke, bits falling off, etc, it's that they fly so well when damaged. I was on the Berloga sever over the weekend (got shot down waaaay more that the opposite ), at one point I was flying a 109 and got behind a Yak and hit it with 4 20mm rounds and a bunch of mg rounds. I apparently missed the engine and fuel tanks because there was no leaking but you would think the Yak's performance would be affected, but no, it fought on as if nothing happened, just as well as an intact aircraft.

 

At other times I've hit a Russian kite causing massive leaking, black smoke, huge holes in the wings and severed control surfaces yet they can still pull bat turns and are as fast as ever. To be fair, I've also downed VVS aircraft with very few hits causing wing loss, fire, or pilot kill but as a rule, those Russian crates continue to fly very well when seriously damaged. Obviously during the war severely damaged aircraft made it back to base but I doubt most of them fought nearly as well as before the damage occurred.

 

Funny too that when I'm flying, a few hits on my bird, online or off, VVS or LW, will cause serious damage to vital components, with engine failure within a very short time.

 

I am not accusing the devs of bias by the way, and I'm still enjoying the sim .

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

This yak stability could be by symmetric fuel leakage. This is simplification i think which is addressed in DD 120.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 To me it seems the fuel tank fire protection is overdone and DM being a bit on the "za rodinu" side. Yes, the inert gas led to the fuel tanks will work against small punctures etc. but if hit by several 20mm Minengeschoss and several incendiary rounds it does NOT help, at all. The holes are too big for the gas being of any help thus fuel ignites. Every single combat report I have read or heard straight from Finnish aces who shot PE-2's down in droves, literally, said it caught fire VERY easily and after that was matter of seconds before it entered the death spiral or exploded. They aimed for the engine and wing root which was most vulnerable to catch fire. I recall very few fighters were lost or damaged to Pe-2 gunners as they were usually killed first with a short burst and gunner effectiveness in general was nowhere near what we see in game, both AI and human controlled. And these guys engaged large formations of Pe-2, especially above Kotka harbour. As reference the fight between Hermann Graf and an IL-4 gunner, from the Christer Bergman's book. The gunner managed to hit Graf's plane eventually after spending all of his ammo, 3500 rounds. And this told by the gunner himself as he survived the incident, the bomber not. People do not seem to grasp that mouse aim is far from holding that gun, turn it against the air stream, fire it, control the recoil and then try to hit a small fighter which is firing at you. In game you can achieve pinpoint accuracy because gunnery is "way too easy" with the missing elements mentioned above. And Pe-2 being more durable than a B-17 as it seems now, is bullcrap.

[707shap_Srbin]

 

 

I recall very few fighters were lost or damaged to Pe-2 gunners

 

Even among "experten" (pilot, awarded with RitterKreuz) there are many, who were shot down and killed by Pe-2 gunners. First to my mind - Niemitz from JG52, Sattig from JG54 (Bf109's) and Kroschinski from JG54 (Fw190A-8)... Some were killed by Pe-2 front single UB mashinegun. As for average german fighter pilots, losses to Pe-2 were  even highter. 

 

 

Every single combat report I have read or heard straight from Finnish aces who shot PE-2's down in droves

 

 

Finnish aces have very hight overclaim rate, and it is rather "optimistic" to take their accounts "as is".

[Monostripezebra]

S!

 

 To me it seems the fuel tank fire protection is overdone and DM being a bit on the "za rodinu" side. Yes, the inert gas led to the fuel tanks will work against small punctures etc. but if hit by several 20mm Minengeschoss and several incendiary rounds it does NOT help, at all. The holes are too big for the gas being of any help thus fuel ignites. Every single combat report I have read or heard straight from Finnish aces who shot PE-2's down in droves, literally, said it caught fire VERY easily and after that was matter of seconds before it entered the death spiral or exploded. They aimed for the engine and wing root which was most vulnerable to catch fire. I recall very few fighters were lost or damaged to Pe-2 gunners as they were usually killed first with a short burst and gunner effectiveness in general was nowhere near what we see in game, both AI and human controlled. And these guys engaged large formations of Pe-2, especially above Kotka harbour. As reference the fight between Hermann Graf and an IL-4 gunner, from the Christer Bergman's book. The gunner managed to hit Graf's plane eventually after spending all of his ammo, 3500 rounds. And this told by the gunner himself as he survived the incident, the bomber not. People do not seem to grasp that mouse aim is far from holding that gun, turn it against the air stream, fire it, control the recoil and then try to hit a small fighter which is firing at you. In game you can achieve pinpoint accuracy because gunnery is "way too easy" with the missing elements mentioned above. And Pe-2 being more durable than a B-17 as it seems now, is bullcrap.

 

I´ve been shot down in one go in a Pe2 quite often. 2-3 20mm can do the job...

It can take some damge from certain angles and on certain parts (rear aspect, fuselage and center wing section) but it is fragile if hit in the right spot:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YrnVCNuabk

[LLv44_Mprhead]

It is always a god awfull mistake to read this type of threads...

Edited October 25, 2016 by I./ZG1_Mprhead

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

At 8:00 Minutes you see why Pe-2 is OP. Bf109 gets shot down DESPITE using the absolutely correct Tactics. 

 

[Monostripezebra]

At 8:00 Minutes you see why Pe-2 is OP. Bf109 gets shot down DESPITE using the absolutely correct Tactics.

 

Pe2s on the deck and dead six attacks, for WoL that is some of the worlds most tactically refined techniques you´ll ever see on there!111! 

;=)

[Turban]

At 8:00 Minutes you see why Pe-2 is OP. Bf109 gets shot down DESPITE using the absolutely correct Tactics. 

 

 

Yep.

 

Side note : that pilot was funny as shit 

[mb339pan]

"LaGG" lakirovannie garantirovanny grob - лакированный гарантированный гроб

 

"stalinwood + super.stalin.sayan4 mg

 

 

 

190 in this sim holds the record of discussions on reviews of the DM / FM / 3dmodel, but for developers was all ok

 

 

weapon efficence

 

 

stalinwood.hokuto.no.ken again

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlUVifr30c

 

we are back to "Oleg Age" :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

As with everything here its all speculation and I have done no testing. I am not a LW fan nor a VVS fan but its just easier down lower to pound the targets

 

The missions are won down low where the red planes dominate. 

 

1. Its hard to spot bandits low on deck from above especially with the way the trees/forests constantly render/flicker. This puts a 109 pilot at a serious disadvantage.

2. Fact is that VVS planes handle and fly better on the deck whereas LW planes need altitude and speed advantage.

3. It takes two 109's to pin down a half decent VVS pilot.... by the time you have got him smoking and damaged enough you almost always have 2 or 3 of his teammates on your 6. If you have turned more than once you have lost speed and altitude advantage and you are easy pickings for the reds.

4.The VVS planes can take huge damage and generally take multiple passes to inflict meaningful damage where point 3 applies. 

 

Whether the reds are OP or not, the fact remains that they win most of the missions and also even when they are seriously outnumbered (in some cases). Of course you get shot down a lot as a red, and its hell difficult to catch a straggling 109 pilot but man its easier to win matches on a regular basis.

[MiloMorai]

Luftwaffe claims can be found here, http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/claims/tonywood.htm

[[TWB]80hd]

At 8:00 Minutes you see why Pe-2 is OP. Bf109 gets shot down DESPITE using the absolutely correct Tactics. 

 

 

Not at all picking sides here in the Great Pe-2 Haterade Challenge of 2016, but sometimes in air combat you can do all the right things and still end up dead.

[wtornado]

 In the real world one of the air gunners would probably have suggested to the pilot that he maneuver . 

 

 

I am pretty sure the turret equipped Peska is faster and got a better climb rate. Different instrumentation also, so in my belief , in reality when adding turret to your PE 2 you also get a newer series. I am sure of this. if it had been Series 87 (witch was not equipped with turret) the extra weight should slow down the aircraft.

 

It had a fixed gun on its tail, do not think it was effective and I am not sure who operated it , but it was there

I put the plane on auto level and you use SHIFT Z and SHIFT X and you hit the Russian plane

with the top and bottom gunner it is just that it doesn't have much effect.Try it you will see.

 

Of course if you fly straight you will shoot your tail off when the plane parks itself there.

 

The SHIFT Z&X maneuver in auto-level is even better with the Stuka than the HE-111 it swerves more

Edited October 25, 2016 by WTornado

[wtornado]

At 8:00 Minutes you see why Pe-2 is OP. Bf109 gets shot down DESPITE using the absolutely correct Tactics. 

 

Like in this video and I was saying before the 109's are easy-peezy to light up and watch burn in the PE-2 and even the IL-2.

 

Good video funny and fun to watch and listen.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

At 8:00 Minutes you see why Pe-2 is OP. Bf109 gets shot down DESPITE using the absolutely correct Tactics. 

 

Haha.... great video Klaus!!

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Panzerbär. Stop spewing incorrect information about overclaiming if you have no idea what you talk about. Russkies killed our air force during winter war 1939-1940 so effectively by their claims, that we would not have a single plane flying even today if true We have not had so many aircraft EVER in total 1918-2016 how many russkies claimed during the war. And we had Focke-Wulfs according to VVS as early as 1942. Propably mistaken the Brewster as "Fokker" as VVS called it in radio comms. Some figures. VVS claimed over 400 shot down Finnish planes during '39-40. We had like a bit over 100 planes of all sorts. Like Blenheim Mk.I and Mk.IV, Fokker D.XXI, Bristol Bulldog, Gloster Gauntlet, Gloster Gladiator. Brewsters and Hurricanes came too late for Winter War.1940-1944 their claims were a bit less but still above the amount of planes we had in total. In many occasions VVS pilots claimed a kill if they had shot at the general direction of a plane and it disengaged in a dive. Several radio transmissions had been intercepted and reported by listening posts. This also puts some of 4. GIAP KBF Golubev's claims against FiAF in the realm of pure fiction. So who is overclaiming and what?

 

 Some aces got more kills to their tally when Russian archives opened up in 1990's. One of them had claimed 10 kills during war. From archives there were found 11 more in the Russian documents. Pilot himself had reported them as propable as could not get reliable confirmation to them during battle. Comparing them to the combat reports made by the pilots and well documented VVS archives it shows that there was hardly no overclaiming. Instead there were some strange "write offs" by VVS. It seems, by the study, that regiments reported "technical losses" easier than actual combat losses for some odd reason to STAVKA. Do not ask me why. Carl Geust did this study of the claims and he is well respected in Russia and has made several books. Very much like Christer Bergström and his Red Star/Black Cross series.

 

 Let's put pilot anecdotes in here to clarify. During 1944 VVS Pe-2's attacked Kotka harbour a lot. Lentolaivue 34 was stationed in Kymi since 1943 to fend off these attacks. During one attack the Finns got airborne a bit late but came in on the PE-2 formation from below. 7 of them were shot down without own losses by the Bf109G's, before the escorting La-5's and Yak's high above the bombers even responded to the threat. All kills verified from VVS archives by the way A few escorting fighters were also shot down. It has been found, again from Russian archives, that the morale of Pe-2 squadrons was getting low due high losses against AAA and intercepting fighters. Attacks were carried out by dive bombing the harbour, not level bombing.

 

 Finns also used PE-2's bought from Germans. They had captured several of them in tact. Pilots liked the plane, but it was technically a VERY challenging plane. The electrical system caused a lot of trouble among other things. And flying the plane required more from the pilot if compared to Ju88A-4 or Do-17Z for example. The defensive guns to the sides were removed as they added nothing but weight, usefullness was low. Saved weight and space too. The belly gun was more or less for scaring off planes, it's arc and visibility was limited.

[JtD]

I was gonna, but then I got bored and skipped to the end.

More accurately, you skipped the facts and invented your own version of history.

[Turban]

More accurately, you skipped the facts and invented your own version of history.

 

[Edited]

 

You have no way of knowing what his motives are.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Bearcat

[Maxyman]

It would be interesting to have statistics about aircrafts shotdown by Pe's gunners and about German bombers's gunners.

 

It 's really strange that on Focke with 6 guns (4 20mm) rarely I kill the gunners or pilots of Pe, while the russians with a few shots from 6 o'clock kill gunners and pilot of a Ju 88 or H111.

 

It 's really strange

K/D by aircraft:

Bf 109 F-4, 1.26
Fw 190 A-3, 1.17
LaGG-3 (series 29), 1.10
Yak-1 (series 69), 1.06
La-5 (series 8), 0.96
Bf 109 F-2, 0.93
MiG-3 (series 24), 0.91
Bf 109 G-2, 0.89
I-16 Type 24, 0.82
Bf 109 E-7, 0.62
IL-2 model 1941, 0.58
P-40 E-1, 0.55
Pe-2 (series 35), 0.55
MC.202 Series VIII, 0.49
Pe-2 (series 87), 0.38
Ju 88 A-4, 0.31
Bf 110 E-2, 0.21
IL-2 AM-38, 0.17
Ju 87 D-3, 0.17
He 111 H-6, 0.16

% of sorties when pilot is wounded:

He 111 H-6, 0.07
Pe-2 (series 35), 0.07
Pe-2 (series 87), 0.09
Bf 109 F-4, 0.10
Bf 109 G-2, 0.10
Bf 109 E-7, 0.11
Fw 190 A-3, 0.11
Bf 110 E-2, 0.11
MC.202 Series VIII, 0.11
Bf 109 F-2, 0.11
Ju 87 D-3, 0.12
LaGG-3 (series 29), 0.13
IL-2 model 1941, 0.13
Ju 88 A-4, 0.13
Yak-1 (series 69), 0.14
La-5 (series 8), 0.14
IL-2 AM-38, 0.14
MiG-3 (series 24), 0.15
I-16 Type 24, 0.15
P-40 E-1, 0.16

[Sokol1]

Hits on already damaged part dont cause more damage:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4986-test-na-betonnost-dm-soglasno-log-fajlam/page-6?do=findComment&comment=462459

[Sokol1]

 

On their own bombers stood almost no chance at all.  Their only real  hope depended on concentrated defensive fire from their formation.  Anything else is essentially comic book BS.

 

 

IRL some alone bombers broken the rule:

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/pietro-bonannini-seaplane-gunner.6097/

http://www.jackfellows.com/Aviation/aviation-090.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=bf1sBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=lt+takeo+kato+blenheim&source=bl&ots=tha2QHIwxR&sig=knN5VZzqso2yogGWiqBWf6m0j5I&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0wpy2nPrPAhVEQiYKHQxyDvMQ6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=lt%20takeo%20kato%20blenheim&f=false

Edited October 27, 2016 by Sokol1