MiG-3 tailwheel and takeoff in 2.004

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

I have a Logitech extreme 3d pro and despite what other people say, I think its a utter shitstick.
But none the less I found a way to takeoff in the mig 100% succesfull.
The trick is to increase throttle VERY slowly and keep the mig perfectly straight throughout so that when you are at 100% throttle you dont have to use the rudder very much.
If you ever use the rudder to much on the mig the tailweel will unlock and yoiu will groundloop, so always keep reacting early with your rudder so you dont have to use big rudder input.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

DONT USE STOCK TRIMS in any plane EVER!!

Reset the trimmers upon starting engines (like all planes)
The stock trims will not help you take off they are completely random and often will get you killed.


Then its very easy.
(no flaps needed and just +15-20% Up elevator Trim)

Sit there Holding brakes,
Apply almost full power Rapidly and release then max power use rudder to keep straight
Drive down runway at 120kph plus Lower the nose to level with runway
At 220-250kph Rotate and take off like an Eagle

 

[LukeFF]

 

 

The stock trims will not help you take off they are completely random and often will get you killed.

 

They are not completely random - they are set up for the plane's optimum cruise speed. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Which is just what you need for takeoff...

 

Unless the devs are assuming that everyone just air starts...

[Turban]

I didn't fly a real mig 3 ever, but I haven't seen anything unrealistic ingame so far.

 

Oh, maybe I should state, for the record, I'm not God, If I say something seems right it doesn't mean it is.

 

I'm back after a few month on the FW 190, so I didn't follow the whole thing . I was flying the Mig exclusively before.

The Mig3 seems fine. I flew with it yesterday on WOL, and I just launched a standard QMB with max wind  / turbulences to be sure and landed on both runways available with a take off since I started from runway.

 

Not 100% crosswind but one off the landing has the wind coming from your 7 o'clock.

 

I managed to yolo both landing, even being drunk ^^ I made a track if you want, although it's not flight school material 

 

100% mixture and standard trim.

The plane just needs to be kept in check the whole time. Rudder+brake. Make sure you touchdown as slow as possible. Again, nothing unrealistic. Taildragger can be very, very tricky, always be on your A game when you fly one !

Cheers

[coconut]

Which is just what you need for takeoff...

 

Unless the devs are assuming that everyone just air starts...

 

Triming your plane properly before take off is easier to do than after spawning in an airstart. If you are going to have one set of default trim only, then it must be the airstart.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I get your point coconut.

 

Still, is it outside the scope of the game engine to have proper trim for runway spawns and air starts?

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Re

 

They are not completely random - they are set up for the plane's optimum cruise speed. 

Really? 

Whats the point of that as they CANNOT be used for a proper take off or landing safely.

 

Triming your plane properly before take off is easier to do than after spawning in an airstart. If you are going to have one set of default trim only, then it must be the airstart.

i thought air start was only on training servers and very limited.

[Dakpilot]

There IS a large part of the community that is SP, having correct trim in airstart spawn situation is more critical, I think it was actually changed earlier due to many complaints

 

Also the learning curve is steep, the first step most will take is air start "training" it is best that this is catered for first, not a good experience for a first time flyer to airstart, disengage autopilot/autolevel and wobble all over the place...however the same can be said for ab initio runway starts

 

Obviously it would be best to have separately defined trim defaults for ground and Air, but it is not hard to do a 'pre-flight' 

 

They are a small team, and although this seems like a small thing to add, I am certain it is in a very large work list, just not a priority compared to other things

 

Trim for takeoff can change with fuel and ordnance so learning as an 'expert' what is best, is good training/familiarisation  people want advanced engine start etc. setting correct trim before start can be considered the first step in this   trimming for landing will always be on an individual situation basis

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Deltahawkoz]

Havent read through all the posts, but am having a hell of a time trying to land this beast...with power on seems to float over the airfield. with power off, THUD, down it comes with a bounce, break prop, bend airframe, ground loop, NKVD waiting in ops room, etc...Have latest version, read through what reading is out there...including the very good 1c tutorial on youtube...but seems for an earlier version of the game??  Correct me if wrong...

[Scojo]

Havent read through all the posts, but am having a hell of a time trying to land this beast...with power on seems to float over the airfield. with power off, THUD, down it comes with a bounce, break prop, bend airframe, ground loop, NKVD waiting in ops room, etc...Have latest version, read through what reading is out there...including the very good 1c tutorial on youtube...but seems for an earlier version of the game??  Correct me if wrong...

I haven't flown the Mig in a while, but hopefully this may be of some help....

 

One of my squadmates told us to remove flaps just before hitting the ground and it helps tremendously with removing a planes tendency to bounce. With this, I can now land the Yak without ANY bouncing.

 

Maybe that's something you can try on the Mig to potentially solve your bouncing problem 

Edited January 30, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[BlitzPig_EL]

Raising flaps just before touch down doesn't seem in any way realistic does it?

 

I'll have to jump back in and give the Mig a try and see what's up with it now.

 

The fact that there are still so many different approaches to landing this thing by the player base is telling me that something still is not right here.

 

The correct procedure from the real thing should work for everyone, every time, that's why pilot's manuals were researched and printed after all.

[216th_Jordan]

Don't throttle down too quickly. Engine thrust will increase lift by propwash, if you cut it your plane will suddenly drop. You need to pull back the throttle very carefully and when you are about to touch down release the controlstick so you don't pull up on the first small bounce. Try to flare it for a good while but not too long. (about 150kph)

Edited January 30, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Sorry i did not even think of Trims for single player.

Keep forgetting this game even has single player (still only used it for flights for testing)

Nor did i think of the learning part about trims (i forgot many people who come to these games have never flown before or know nothing about planes)

[Scojo]

Raising flaps just before touch down doesn't seem in any way realistic does it?

 

 

The fact that there are still so many different approaches to landing this thing by the player base is telling me that something still is not right here.

 

The correct procedure from the real thing should work for everyone, every time, that's why pilot's manuals were researched and printed after all.

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not a real pilot, but the guy that told me to do that is a real pilot and he didn't mention anything else about it, so I assumed it was normal.

 

If it's not supposed to be like that, then yes, something isn't right, however it works for more than one plane, so it wouldn't just be a mig problem if it makes landing the mig easier.

 

Also, I fully agree with your last two statements.

Edited January 30, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[Deltahawkoz]

Good to see some responses...some good inputs

 

Don't throttle down too quickly. Engine thrust will increase lift by propwash, if you cut it your plane will suddenly drop. You need to pull back the throttle very carefully and when you are about to touch down release the controlstick so you don't pull up on the first small bounce. Try to flare it for a good while but not too long. (about 150kph)

 

 

This is sort of working for me...very careful speed control coming into landing, just holding the nose up...and 150 kph does seem to be about right..I do glance at the vertical speed indicator...not sure about the correct rate of descent though....I note in the 1c youtube where the mig 3 pilot is being interviewed, he does mention 120-130, not sure about the translation, most aircraft of that era seem to land something in the order of 80 to 90 mph...or thereabouts..Long final is required to get speed right.  All my landings are accompanied by a ground loop (ver 2006)...And have to agree where BlitzPig_EL says there is something not right here...just too inconsistent...if somebody can point me to some hard fast documentation about landing this thing..I am all eyes...and ears....

Thanks in advance

[gnomechompsky]

I can put the plane down without bouncing easily enough but NOTHING will stop the ground loop on rough runway. I can keep it going in a straight line on concrete but otherwise no chance. Can't be realistic.

[BM357_TinMan]

Yes, there are techniques that you can learn to help overcome the problem.  I CAN take this stupid thing off most of the time successfully (I still can't land).

But I agree, "[This] [c]an't be realistic"

[216th_Jordan]

Well what further complicates the matter is that you have very limited senses for you plane when sitting in front of your screen. Field of view and sense of motion is almost completely missing. I don't know why the Mig-3 is so much harder to control in this game but it can be done quite well, but never apply brakes above 50kph. The most important thing is to pick a distant spot and try to stay aligned with it. It helps to put the pilots had the most backward you can so you have a better view.

Edited January 31, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Scojo]

I practiced some takeoffs and landings in this thing yesterday. I think I've developed a method for takeoff that works for me.

 

I first throttled up slowly to 50%

While throttling to 50% slowly, I kept the plane as straight as I could using rudder without any specific care to tail wheel locking/unlocking

Once I was at 50% throttle, I left it there for maybe a second or two making sure my nose was pointing straight down the runway

Then I slammed the throttle forward to bring the tail up

 

This method only worked when I didn't have flaps lowered. When I tried flaps lowered, the plane flopped left and right all down the runway until my prop eventually struck the ground.

 

I didn't actually manage a perfect landing, however, I think I got close enough to where some more practice would help.

 

For the landing I used a typical landing procedure, but instead of coming in at very low throttle on a three point landing, I kept throttle up enough to keep my  speed just above stall speed

I then pointed my nose slightly above level and let the speed bleed until my front wheels were down. After holding this for about a second, I dropped throttle low but not off and waited for the tail wheel to touch.

I then used brakes while keeping throttle low until the plane came to a stop using rudder to keep from looping.

 

My prop struck when I had my wheels down because I didn't give any up elevator to account for the moment about the front wheels from friction with the ground. If I repeat this process for landing and give a little up elevator when my front wheels touch, I'm pretty sure I'll have landings down.

 

I do want to echo TynMahn's statement though and say that while I do think the mig should be a little difficult to land and takeoff in, since it was so IRL, I can't help but feel it's currently harder than it actually would have been IRL.

 

At this point in time, I'd be less stressed out landing on a carrier in bad wind than taking off in the Mig-3 lol

[Scojo]

He barely puts in any rudder. I'm just not convinced I could put in that little rudder and avoid either the tail wheel coming unlocked or ground looping. He also throttles up pretty fast. Can anyone analyze this and compare it to what we have in game better than I can?

 

Here's another mig-3 takeoff. Harder to really see the control surfaces, but it still looks like he doesn't have to move the rudder much and also doesn't have to baby the throttle or use a lot of runway like we have to in game.

 

In fact, the first pilot seems to get off the ground even without his plane needing to fully lift it's tail off the ground

Edited February 3, 2017 by 71st_AH_Scojo

[Scojo]

After considering the video a bit more, I rescind my statement on the aircraft taking off so quickly. I think I just felt that because of the camera angle.

 

However I do still feel like the first pilot got into the air without bringing the plane's tail up as high as you have to do in the Sim to get enough speed to lift off

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

My Five Cents that work ALL the time: 

 

Rule for Take-Off: 

Full Backpressure on the Stick until you reach about 120kph and keep her pulled and only slowly let the tail raise until you are at about 150-160, she should be stable above that and easy to Lift-Off. 

Put in only a little Rudder and Correct only in one Direction, what kills you is Pilot induced Oscillation. No Brakes needed.

You are basically using the Tailwheel as an Anchor or Skid to keep the Tail the Draggiest Part of the Landing Gear, a bit like a WWI Bird. 

 

Rule for Landing:

Low Speed is Key. She is most safely Landed in a three Point attitude, don't be afraid to just hover on the Runway using Ground Effect until she Drops onto the Ground. 

Full Backpressure and Wheelbbrakes until are at 40kph or below. Then you can taxi. 

 

Works all the time, even in Crosswinds. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Scojo]

Rule for Take-Off: 

Full Backpressure on the Stick until you reach about 120kph and keep her pulled and only slowly let the tail raise until you are at about 150-160, she should be stable above that and easy to Lift-Off. 

Put in only a little Rudder and Correct only in one Direction, what kills you is Pilot induced Oscillation. No Brakes needed.

You are basically using the Tailwheel as an Anchor or Skid to keep the Tail the Draggiest Part of the Landing Gear, a bit like a WWI Bird. 

I guess I've never really done this to the extent you've described, but relying on the friction of the tail wheel for stability makes sense. I'll have to try it

[Deltahawkoz]

Yeah, hmmmm, re full backpressure...does indeed make sense...one more idea into the mix...Devs need to look at this however....given that so many generally experienced folk have commented on it...Its a piece of software, after all...my guess would be that one of the iterations "changed" something..(Note that I did not say broke, before I get flamed)....

 

 

rottle up enough to keep my  speed just above stall speed

 

 

BTW what is stall for this bad boy??

[JimTM]

He barely puts in any rudder. I'm just not convinced I could put in that little rudder and avoid either the tail wheel coming unlocked or ground looping. He also throttles up pretty fast. Can anyone analyze this and compare it to what we have in game better than I can?

 

Here's another mig-3 takeoff. Harder to really see the control surfaces, but it still looks like he doesn't have to move the rudder much and also doesn't have to baby the throttle or use a lot of runway like we have to in game.

 

In fact, the first pilot seems to get off the ground even without his plane needing to fully lift it's tail off the ground

 

By throttling up relatively fast (and smoothly), he gets fast airflow from the propeller over the rudder right away, which makes the rudder more effective. As you can see, he's using small, quick rudder movements to correct any small deviations in direction right away. Make your feet dance on the rudder pedals (if you have them) to keep the plane going straight. Using this method, you don't need to keep the tail down for very long at all.

Edited February 3, 2017 by JimTM

[Danziger]

I turned on mouse aim and pointed it toward takeoff and left it alone. The plane will automatically do what it needs to stay on that course. Just watch the controls from inside and outside to get an idea of what it is doing.

[Finkeren]

Rule for Take-Off: 

Full Backpressure on the Stick until you reach about 120kph and keep her pulled and only slowly let the tail raise until you are at about 150-160, she should be stable above that and easy to Lift-Off. 

Put in only a little Rudder and Correct only in one Direction, what kills you is Pilot induced Oscillation. No Brakes needed.

You are basically using the Tailwheel as an Anchor or Skid to keep the Tail the Draggiest Part of the Landing Gear, a bit like a WWI Bird. 

 

 

That did it! Thanks man.

 

The full back-pressure on the stick makes the left swing manageable - it's still there, but you have much more leeway to counter it. I thought I had tried this several times, but apparently I wanted to lift the tail too soon, you really have to wait till around 120-130km/h. The result is a helluva long take off run, and it's still not straight or pretty when I do it, but at least I can consistently take off now. Did it ten times in a row and only ground looped when I was accidentally easing off on the stick too soon.

 

I can sorta land in one piece, no bouncing or anything, but like so many others, I just can't seem to avoid the ground loop at the end.

 

Still, I can finally take off in my favourite fighter again. 

 

I will maintain that it should not be this hard! Any plane with this little tolerance for pilot error during take off and landing would no be deemed airworthy.

[Scojo]

 

BTW what is stall for this bad boy??

Indicated stall speed in flight configuration: 159..175 km/h

Landing speed: 135..145 km/h

 

You can find these among other essential info for the plane in the specs tab on the mission briefing screen

 

By throttling up relatively fast (and smoothly), he gets fast airflow from the propeller over the rudder right away, which makes the rudder more effective. As you can see, he's using small, quick rudder movements to correct any small deviations in direction right away. Make your feet dance on the rudder pedals (if you have them) to keep the plane going straight. Using this method, you don't need to keep the tail down for very long at all.

Ah ok, that makes sense then. I'm always too soft on the rudder then. I always felt like when I push the controls quickly, I must be doing something wrong as most people say be easy on the controls. I'll try it

 

That did it! Thanks man.

 

The full back-pressure on the stick makes the left swing manageable - it's still there, but you have much more leeway to counter it. I thought I had tried this several times, but apparently I wanted to lift the tail too soon, you really have to wait till around 120-130km/h. The result is a helluva long take off run, and it's still not straight or pretty when I do it, but at least I can consistently take off now. Did it ten times in a row and only ground looped when I was accidentally easing off on the stick too soon.

 

I can sorta land in one piece, no bouncing or anything, but like so many others, I just can't seem to avoid the ground loop at the end.

 

Still, I can finally take off in my favourite fighter again. 

 

I will maintain that it should not be this hard! Any plane with this little tolerance for pilot error during take off and landing would no be deemed airworthy.

This is good to hear. I didn't fly the Mig this weekend, but will try this next time for sure.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, IRL I am getting this Bird back to flying Condition together with some friends and 2 weeks ago we did the first Fast Taxi Runs and found out that she has very little Tailwheel Authority. She 180hp engine at 900kg, was originally designed for a 95 hp engine, the O-360 in it now moved the Center of Gravity a good deal further forward that if you don't pull back on the Stick she will just Ground Loop even with the Tail Wheel Locked.

 

We almost undid all our Work on the First Run and just narrowly avoided Nosing Over and/or Ground Looping when upon initial acceleration she started swerving violently and just narrowly managed to Stop her by the Edge of the fortunately very wide Runway. Second attempt she did it again, but instead of Stopping that time, the Pilot opened up and we hovered in the Ground Effect somewhat by accident for about 20 Seconds until we got back down just so. 

 

Third attempt was the Charm when we decided to do exactly that, we Pressed hard down on the Tailwheel to about 70kph and got her to a stable 2-Wheel Roll at 100kph, however transitioning back from that to Three Wheel Attitude almost got us in Trouble again. That Experience is was inspired me to try it on the MiG as well. 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

During Mig3 take off I use to hold back pressure on the stick but now after last patches I do not have to press her tail down during whole take off run. Just little gentle rudder when I see her nose wants to drift away. BTW I don't like experience when she gets her feet off the ground, it's instability - perhaps because I miss timing when to neutralize the rudder to take up nicely into the skies...

Edited February 6, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[Finkeren]

During Mig3 take off I use to hold back pressure on the stick but now after last patches I do not have to press her tail down during whole take off run. Just little gentle rudder when I see her nose wants to drift away. BTW I don't like experience when she gets her feet off the ground, it's instability - perhaps because I miss timing when to neutralize the rudder to take up nicely into the skies...

She's extremely unstable after take off, but that actually doesn't bother me. That's consistent with what I've read.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Pulling back on the stick while taxiing an aircraft with tailwheel is standard procedure if not stated otherwise in the manual. The added load on the tailwheel increases friction which counteracts the turning of the tail wheel. It also means that when going over uneven surfaces the tail will not jump but stay on the ground as it should be.

 

The same procedure can be applied vice versa when goung around sharp corners. If you push the stick forward you reduce load on the tailwheel and thus the friction which helps it to turn around. Both techniqs do find application in BoX.

 

In reality there are way more factors like structual integrity of the landing gear & tailwheel ect. a pilot needs to take into account. If your tailwheel's structure is weak (like on Pitts S-2) you don't want to put too much load on it to prevent it from taking damage. On a nose wheel aircraft you constantly taxi with pulled stick to prevent damage on the nose gear.

 

Edit: Nice picture Klaus, hopefully she'll fly again.

Edited February 6, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I remember before patch I used to hold her tail becouse without it I had problems during initial take off but now I do not have to regardless if it is correct or not.

I remember before patch I used to hold her tail becouse without it I had problems during initial take off but now I do not have to regardless if it is correct or not.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

My reply was general and not directed towards specific people / aircraft. Things will always be slightly different in sims compared to real aviation including pilot behaviour but they still have certain things in common.

 

The standard procedure would be as Klaus describes. Just because I can take off in a Bf 109 with unlocked tailwheel doesn't make me recommend others to do so only because it's possible.

Edited February 6, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 

Edit: Nice picture Klaus, hopefully she'll fly again.

She did fly again. We didn't want or plan her to, but she did until we stopped her from doing so. Hope the Next Flight is one we plan beforehand. 

[Lusekofte]

Klaus, cool looking plane, what plane is it? Is it a two seater? If so do you use ballast on second seat? I am very interested in your project , is it possible to follow a blog on this?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Klaus, cool looking plane, what plane is it? Is it a two seater? If so do you use ballast on second seat? I am very interested in your project , is it possible to follow a blog on this?

Josef Oberlerchner Holzindustrie Job-15-180/2, one of 24 Built, 12 still airworthy, 2 with the 180hp engine (the strongest engine for it). 

 

It's derived from the Two-Seater Job-5, it was fitted with a third seat at a 45° angle so your arse is on the left while your legs are on the right but you can only stretch your Right Leg while getting a Clot in your Left. It's really just an Emergency Seat. 

 

We plan to use it as an Aerotow again. It's an amazing Aerotow, superior to the Remo (Robin DR.400 to the Pedestrians), so much so that Chartering Aeroclubs have actually called her their Tow-109. 

 

One of the 150 HP Models is actually being sold in Freiburg right now. 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[216th_Jordan]

Just an Idea: Has anyone with problems tried setting noise filter to 0.0? The noise filter adds a delay to all inputs and the effect could be quite severe.