MiG-3 tailwheel and takeoff in 2.004

[Sunde]

Alright guys! I made a short video of me taking off in the MIG, if you guys keep having issues, consider making a video so we can see what happens!
S Mueller. 
Link for video : https://youtu.be/oInpwnO6EG8

[Avatar13]

Okay, I managed to be able to put in a little time today (day of from work) in between doing my local taxes... Was able to take off 5 out of 5 tries, though one was extremely hairy! After take off I'd fly around the airfield and immediately land. I'm looping on every landing and twice bent my prop... Time to focus more on my landing techniques I guess! LOL Definitely out of practice big time!

[BlitzPig_EL]

If all russian pilots in ww2 got such problems with taking off most mig3s would be wiped out only during flight traning

 

Indeed.

[Scarecrow]

When I first read the the title of this thread my first reaction was "goddamn noobs". I'd not yet tried the Mig3 but having had no trouble with any of the other aircraft I felt comfortable with my assessment of the problem so I jumped in the Mig and pranged over and over and over. Then I came back and read this thread to gleam what advice I could and with some practice I've manged to gain a better understanding of this treacherous beast.

 

Got to be super smooth on the rudder and throttle and then expect the nose to lurch left when the tail goes up. I'm still practicing

 

Still at least I learned how the flaps and the mixture work on this thing now

[Willy__]

You guys got any charts, videos, manuals ? Just reminding that without proper evidence, I doubt the plane behavior will change. Wait, I've seen this before..... 

[LukeFF]

You guys got any charts, videos, manuals ? Just reminding that without proper evidence, I doubt the plane behavior will change. Wait, I've seen this before.....

And what exactly are you trying to accomplish with posts like this?

[Guest deleted@50488]

I honestly can't find ANY problems with taxiing, taking off or landing the Mig-3, other than those that were actually characteristic of it's RW counterpart, provided you follow the recommendations.

 

Han posted before the Mig-3 was released that it was a tricky airplane to control on ground, and that was based also on feedback received from at one RW Mig-3 pilot ( not that senior ww2 pilot portrayed at the IL2 site, but one that actually flies an actual ( museum ) aircraft.

 

I tried to find ( in a hurry ) that informative post by Han, but couldn't...

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/2j7N8XGR-z0?t=309

Edited October 27, 2016 by jcomm

[Finkeren]

And what exactly are you trying to accomplish with posts like this?

 

Well, he's right though.

 

Ideally we'd need more concrete evidence as well as historical sources, to show that this is wrong. The problem is, that an issue like this isn't really quantifiable and depends a lot on personal experience. 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Actually, Han posted those two videos with the Mig-3 on today's Devs Diary !

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-4?do=findComment&comment=403772

[Finkeren]

Actually, Han posted those two videos with the Mig-3 on today's Devs Diary !

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-4?do=findComment&comment=403772

 

I saw that. Unfortunately it hasn't helped me. Setting the mixture to 50% has kinda made the left swing more manageable, but even the slightest error still results in an immediate ground loop.

[Willy__]

Nothing wrong with the aircraft fellas. Its only emotions.... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cathaoir]

By following What Han suggested I am now able to take off consistently.....It also let me find my major problem....my joy stick....when trying Hans' way of taking off I found I was able to stay on the runway but the first 3-4 tries when the tail wheel came up I would break my prop....so I checked my settings...seems my X-52 pro has a week spring....I found I had about an 5-8 deg down pitch in neutral.....playing around I found I could Just pull back a little until I felt a little pressure and BAM....this is like night and day....went 10 for 10...Anyone having problems try this....not sure of all of his settings but I go with default Yaw and 0 pitch.....go 2 80+ throttle let loose of the break after about 2 sec's floor it and down the runway I go. If anyone is still having I would suggest checking your settings....That is where I thing my major problem was.....And thanks to Han and the Dev's for listening to us and giving us positive feedback when the  more experienced pilots were not having any problems....And THANKS to everyone on this discussion who gave positive feedback and help.....I was always wary of posting anything because I am a noob....but I found out that the community here Is more than willing to help out those whose are having issues....to all of you I thank you......S!

[kissklas]

Did some landing practicing today after reading Hans post. I found out that I have been way to gentle on the rudder because I was afraid of the ground loop. This was the issue. To keep from ground looping be very early on the rudder as soon as you see any movement (use skies as referance) and give it quite a lot of rudder in short bursts. Landed 5 times now perfect, with very short approaches even.

 

Also, be very careful when making contact with the ground, make sure you pay attention to the horizon and keep bleeding off the speed at very low alt. A slight bounce from a drop can make you loop if not careful.

 

I am on Saitek combat pedals, and a Msffb2 and it is fully doable. It's all about technique.

[Medicated]

I have a 10% curve for my rudder and I use a twist grip joystick for my rudder. When I line up on the runway, I am at a standstill, then I twist the rudder full left before accelerating. I usually advance the throttle rapidly (to be honest, practically slam it all the way), then slowly straighten out the rudder as I build speed. My method certainly isn't perfect or as "refined" as what the Devs explained and may not be pretty, but I have yet to ground loop or crash even once. Now when landing I do still love have some troubles keeping it from looping but at least I walk away from the plane!

[LLv34_Vellu]

Yesterday's Developer Diary has tips how to handling Mig. 

There is one point what I dont know

 

" - Set flaps limiter to 20%, extend landing flaps"

 

How does flaps limiter works ? In have not any idea about it.

I checked contlors but there are not any new control to limit flaps.

[Zygiert]

Yesterday's Developer Diary has tips how to handling Mig. 

There is one point what I dont know

 

" - Set flaps limiter to 20%, extend landing flaps"

 

How does flaps limiter works ? In have not any idea about it.

I checked contlors but there are not any new control to limit flaps.

 

Just hold the button for closing flaps. Limiter goes then slowly from 100% to 0% flaps.

[kissklas]

Just hold the button for closing flaps. Limiter goes then slowly from 100% to 0% flaps.

Is there any indicator for the limiter by the way? Cannot seem to find it.

[Siipiorava]

Is there any indicator for the limiter by the way? Cannot seem to find it.

Behind the stick, on the floor. There is a red indicator that moves vertically.

[Brano]

I like the training missions Danil provided for MiG. Did many take offs and landings and all went fine. The only problem I didn't crack yet without cracking my kite is the mission where you need to land with strong crosswind of 12m/s. That's real challenge

[kissklas]

Behind the stick, on the floor. There is a red indicator that moves vertically.

Cheers! Will surely help. Until now I have just been guessing!:-p

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I was having all sorts of issues ending in embarrassing results with taking off and landing the MiG but I think I've finally cracked the takeoff  and the landing is now satisfactory…….sort of

 

Take off:
Mixture to 50%
RPM's 90%
Hold Brake and apply 80% throttle for a few seconds, release the brake get a little speed then go full throttle.
Hold three quarters left rudder input (just correct by centering the rudder (NO Right rudder) and then applying left rudder and a little brake if needed.
Left the tail lift on its own.

I can take off 99% of the time now.

Landing:
Mixture 60%
RPM's 75
when setting up for finals approach speed 200KPH , drop flaps and extend landing gear
Throttle 36%  then cut just before touching down.
when the aircraft  touches down apply gentle back pressure to make sure you get the tail on the ground.

Still get an occasional ground loop.

 

This is "working" for me but I have to admit the Mig has proved to be a tricky little beast at least in my experience .

 

Thanks for all the help and advice from everyone

Edited October 28, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[Bando]

No problems taking off or landing. The take off is done (by me at least) without any trim settings (all neutral).

Landing trim is only set for pitch.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

The MiG has always been a bit greasy on takeoff.  Prior to 2.004 I used to fly them once in a while in mp.  Since 2.004 I take off successfully about 50% of the times.  I usually keep the tail down until the plane takes off.

 

Here's the thing though.  That's not good enough to attempt to take a MiG in a server where planes count, they're to precious.

 

So I'm sure I need more training before using it again in mp, until then it's staying in the hangar.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I've read many suggestions in here about settings etc. for takeoff.  Then I watched the video of the real Mig taking off.  No flaps, very little rudder input, rads mainly open.  I however noticed two thing that were different.  First of all the tail stayed on the ground almost to takeoff.  The other thing, which I think is more important, he had his canopy open.  So I went in and tried several takeoffs doing both of these while doing other settings such as braking while throttling, no braking, etc.  I did about 10 takeoffs and all were successful.  They weren't just, phew, I made it takeoffs, they were relatively normal.  I still needed left rudder that I let off as I accelerated.  In my unprofessional opinion the open canopy causes enough drag at the rear of the aircraft to somehow counter the yaw at the front.  The tail wheel just starts to lift up when I become airborne.

 

Caution, watch the drop in the right wing on take off if your speed is a little under.

 

Maybe someone else having issues could try this and get back if it helped.

[Guest deleted@50488]

@12.OIAE_Stick-95

 

I've posted one of those video links you mention. Beware that the amount of rudder input used by the pilot is very difficult to "glimpse" from watching such a video. I speak for my RL experience, taking off in windy days where I know the amount of rudder inputs I used, and when people who recorded videos of my flight show them to me...

 

Regarding the effects of opened canopies, I am not sure il2 models it ? In the earlier version it didn't - but I haven't yet tried with the new ones - have to try it myself :-)

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Regarding the effects of opened canopies, I am not sure il2 models it ? In the earlier version it didn't - but I haven't yet tried with the new ones - have to try it myself :-)

 

It's modeled.

 

Mig-3 - 500m altitude QMB setting, 2 X 12.7mg, 100% fuel, 10% oil rad, 50% water rad, 84% mix, 100% prop pitch, 100% throttle.  Level stab.  EDIT:  trims left at spawn setting.  Stalingrad summer map

 

Max speed reached.

Opened canopy - 459kph

Closed canopy - 493kph

 

About 6.9% drag with canopy open.  This is based on max speed not takeoff speed but it must still be producing drag even at lower speeds.

Edited October 31, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[Shepherd]

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but here is a hint that worked pretty good for me:

Try your first exercises in the Mig 3 on wintermaps!

 

- First of all, the colder air makes it easier for the engine to accelerate the plane. This should bring you in the air a little sooner before the end of the runway.

 

- Second (and most important) on wintermaps you will see, even at best weather conditions, some high altitude clouds which you can monitor through your cockpitwindow during take off and landing. Using these clouds as an "aiming point" makes it much easier to instantly react on movements around z-axis of the plane.

 

I cannot really say I like the difference brought to us with patch 2.004, but at least I am now able to start and land the Mig nearly without ground loops. (Haven't found a method for the clear-sky summer condition though)

 

Maybe this might be a little help...

[Zoltann]

All right,

 

Was toroughly frustrated taking off, very comparable to Finkerens initial experience.

 

Then I checked Hans video, learned about the flap setting and mixture combi for extra power after some gooogeling, and crashed some more....

 

Left the game again, next day tried anew.

 

Then I did it! My mistake was trying to correct any and all lateral deviations with rudder.

 

When I left the rudder almost steady (left input from 80 pct releasing to 50-60 pct input) and tapped the brakes shortly, the vicious left killer swing was easily controlled!

 

NOTHING wrong with the flight model, its pilots technique...

 

Feel frustrated? I was:

I stooged around for at least 20+ crashes, and having IRL 10.000+ hours on commercial (mostly heavy) planes it kinda humbled me...

 

Once again, as with Rise Of Flight, the Devs managed to give all these aircraft all their OWN character, my compliments! 

 

 

 

Well, he's right though.

 

Ideally we'd need more concrete evidence as well as historical sources, to show that this is wrong. The problem is, that an issue like this isn't really quantifiable and depends a lot on personal experience. 

 

NO he is NOT right,...please lets not try dumb down the game...its technique and preserverance here.

 

What is really needed is more info, kida like Pilots Operating Notes, on how to fly these beasts. The video Han made is a good example of that, tough the use of slight braking during takeoff which makes it easier for me was not mentioned...

 

Maybe wrong technique, good result

[BlueJayslivernyc]

Why why; who would do this and for what reason?

 

The game was challenging enough but now I have almost no chance of getting the Mig 3 into the air and landing has become an effort in futility.

 

It was hard enough to take off and land before the update.  It is as if the development staff decided too many people enjoy flying the Mig let's make it even harder to use the plane.

 

I do not play on expert just normal and do spend the majority of my time playing off-line.

 

Now all I can do is keep doing quick mission after quick mission trying to get the hang of the new flight takeoff characteristics for the Mig.

 

I do not know how this Sim will ever grow beyond its core group of players if the basics components of flight are made to have shut a high entry barrier to master.

 

I am not saying I'm giving up; back to the quick missions; maybe after 200 tries I'll get the hang of it again.

 

[BlueJayslivernyc]

I have spent the better part of three hours practicing takeoffs and landings in the Mig 3.  Getting a little bit better; I can get up about 50 percent of the time now and land without wrecking the crate about 25 percent of the time.

 

The Mig before the update already liked to ground loop now it is even more twitchy.  I was away from the game for a little bit over a week so I have not had much time with the post patch changes.  Maybe after a couple more days and going over the advice found in the tread I can get back to actually shooting at something again.

[YoYo]

Something is wrong after 2.004 for me too.

 

HOW is possible when I land on a field with speed 165km/h and constant minus 1-2 m/s vertical speed to jump after touchdown in 3 points in MiG-3 to..... 4 meters?

Its simply impossible in the real!

In this conditions the plane will be like a glue....

 

In the end I do the circle.....???

 

It concerns MiG-3 and LaGG-3.

 

Germans is ok, Yak and La is ok for me also but It could be better. I hope it will be fixed.

 

Take off looks ok (full rudder to left with small corrections, stick back to 100 km/h, after this center it).

Edited November 1, 2016 by YoYo

[216th_Jordan]

Something is wrong after 2.004 for me too.

 

HOW is possible when I land on a field with speed 165km/h and constant minus 1-2 m/s vertical speed to jump after touchdown in 3 points in MiG-3 to..... 4 meters?

Its simply impossible in the real!

In this conditions the plane will be like a glue....

 

In the end I do the circle.....???

 

It concerns MiG-3 and LaGG-3.

 

Germans is ok, Yak and La is ok for me also but It could be better. I hope it will be fixed.

 

Take off looks ok (full rudder to left with small corrections, stick back to 100 km/h, after this center it).

Well as far is I understood some soviet designs had little to no shock absorption so the plane likes to jump up again. As the wheels are in front of CG the AoA will increase after the bounce, putting the plane higher in the air. My guess though would be that irl tire pressure would be lowered by ground crew to tone down this effect. Edited November 1, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[YoYo]

Ok, solved landing problem but I think tailwheel is buggy. Tailwheel means tailwheel. It blocks the plane on the ground and only it needs corrections by rudder for wind (small corrections).

Here in MiG-3 and LaGG-3 it works like nothing ;> so don't affraid to touch a rudder when You lands. My found for landing problem is to push rudder (more and more, more than this 10% for tailwheel) for very short time and for both side (once in one time to the other side).

 

It works for me, here short video and small tutorial:

 

 

btw. after some tests - the best Touchdown speed is 150 km/h for 3 points. It's possible and MiG-3 dosen't jump to mutch.

Edited November 1, 2016 by YoYo

[FuriousMeow]

Landing is no issue for me. Take off initially was, but it just requires a different take off procedure than other planes.

 

Here's what I do, throttle up (obviously) with enough left rudder to keep as center line down the runway as possible, as the plane speeds up I am reducing left rudder to the point there is almost no rudder input just as the tail picks up. I do not force the tail up, I let it come up on its own. Once it is up, only very, very, very small rudder input - but by that point it is almost at speed to get in the air. I also don't use flaps for take off.

 

I don't bother with the stick until the tail comes up on its own.

 

EDIT: Try this a few times on a wide open field on the Moscow map so you can try to keep center line but get the habit of letting the tail come up on its own and reducing rudder input as the speed increases. That way you don't have to worry about staying on the runway just yet. As you get the fine tune rudder control down, move onto narrower runways.

 

EDIT2: Also, make sure you are getting the same performance as before. I had choppy framerates after this patch but the FPS readout was normal. I set my graphics to low, restarted the game and did one flight, then set the graphics back to the previous Ultra settings and it was smooth again. The FPS readout was still the same. Despite FPS being high, it was choppy until I reset the graphics options.

Edited November 1, 2016 by FuriousMeow

[FuriousMeow]

Not my best takeoff - Bandicam cuts my framerate and makes it a bit choppy when playing and I was also aiming down so the pedals and stick were in view.
 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-PNaBBDUYu8QlRzTDBKNHNQd0U

 

(Lost a bit of quality on the upload, its better quality if downloaded about 56MB)

Edited November 1, 2016 by FuriousMeow

[andyw248]

Ok, solved landing problem but I think tailwheel is buggy. Tailwheel means tailwheel. It blocks the plane on the ground and only it needs corrections by rudder for wind (small corrections).

Here in MiG-3 and LaGG-3 it works like nothing ;> so don't affraid to touch a rudder when You lands. My found for landing problem is to push rudder (more and more, more than this 10% for tailwheel) for very short time and for both side (once in one time to the other side).

 

It works for me, here short video and small tutorial:

 

http://youtu.be/w2lKHDcF7kI

 

btw. after some tests - the best Touchdown speed is 150 km/h for 3 points. It's possible and MiG-3 dosen't jump to mutch.

 

Nice takeoff, YoYo!

 

For the landing you may want to experiment with a steeper approach (see Han's video for an example). A steeper approach allows you to "nail" your approach speed with very little power, so that when you finally flare the plane it will bleed off any excess speed very quickly, and that bit of power that you had left from the approach is just enough to play with to soften the touchdown. Flat approaches generally require more power to maintain, and therefore much bigger power changes when it comes to the touchdown.

[GridiroN]

I've figured out the issue. 

 

Positive elevator trim makes the tail wheel much more controllable than setting it negative for nose-down, as you would do in most other planes. or at least, what I do. Set the trim 20% up and the MiG can be taken off just fine with appropriate rudder input, very little brakes. 

 

 

I must have practiced taking off 20 or 30 times in the MiG and crashed wildly every other time with the same issues everyone else had (impossibly strong right torque, countered by impossibly strong left torque)

Edited November 14, 2016 by GridiroN

[Danziger]

How is it in 2.005?

[Finkeren]

How is it in 2.005?

 

Same issue on take off for me. I failed my first 5 attempts.

[YoYo]

How is it in 2.005?

 

Checked. No any difference from 2.004 without "my technique" - crash and circles.

 

But now I know MiG-3 very well so near 99% of take off and landings are success for me.