MiG-3 tailwheel and takeoff in 2.004

[von_Tom]

That left turn could be at the speed when the rudder really gets full authority and your left rudder "bites".  I though the tail came up later. 

 

As the tail came up I did get a slight wobble but I reduced rudder a tiny bit and it sorted itself out.  To be honest I was twitchy and didn't want to do too much control input.  The tail coming up was scary though as the cockpit feels very close to the ground.

 

von Tom

[Finkeren]

That left turn could be at the speed when the rudder really gets full authority and your left rudder "bites".  I though the tail came up later. 

 

As the tail came up I did get a slight wobble but I reduced rudder a tiny bit and it sorted itself out.  To be honest I was twitchy and didn't want to do too much control input.  The tail coming up was scary though as the cockpit feels very close to the ground.

 

von Tom

 

No, that's not what happens, and if it is, it's so vastly different from any of the other planes, that it has to be wrongly modeled. What I'm experiencing would cause any pilot to prang his kite on his first attempt at take off. 

 

Also: If that was the case, it would mean, that something significant has changed in the FM of the MiG-3, because the MiGs rudder didn't behave like this prior to the update. The only FM-changes in 2.004 were for the Yak-1, so I really doubt the rudder "biting" would be the cause here.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Finkeren

[von_Tom]

I had a another couple of goes too and I really had the bad nose swing at around 80-100km/h. I see what you mean about the nose going left but it still seems to me that is when full authority goes to the rudder. I'm not surprised when there is a long nose, short fuselage and large rudder - the nose will swing all over the place.

 

I uploaded a short (bad) takeoff video. You can see I don't touch the brake at all but it was certainly not smooth. This sure isn't an instructional video.

 

Edit: I was in expert mode and looking down so you could see my control inputs. Until the tail came up it was all rudder.

 

Edit 2: I wonder if the difference with the suspension modelling means that with left rudder etc the torque of the engine is making the right wheel bed into the ground, and when the right wing gets enough lift that wheel doesn't dig in so much meaning you are well over compensating and it turns left. Something like that anyway.

 

 

 

von Tom

Edited October 22, 2016 by von_Tom

[GridiroN]

I had a another couple of goes too and I really had the bad nose swing at around 80-100km/h. I see what you mean about the nose going left but it still seems to me that is when full authority goes to the rudder.  I'm not surprised when there is a long nose, short fuselage and large rudder - the nose will swing all over the place.

 

I uploaded a short (bad) takeoff video.  You can see I don't touch the brake at all but it was certainly not smooth.  This sure isn't an instructional video.

 

Edit:  I was in expert mode and looking down so you could see my control inputs.  Until the tail came up it was all rudder.

 

 

 

von Tom

 

Should have left the techno chatter on. 

[Matt]

Just took off three times in a row and this is actually my worst attempt (was too eager to get the tail off the ground and pushed the stick too far forward, also took off with slightly too low speed).

 

@CATHAOIR: In your recordings, you're not easing off the rudder when the plane gets faster and starts sweering to the left. That's why the tail swings around. Also it seems like you've bound both throttle and RPM to the same lever, which is something i wouldn't recommend. Even if it won't make a difference on take-off, you'll have a harder time during landings, because you'll be landing with low RPM and will need more rudder to compensate. On most planes that have a RPM lever, you can leave the RPM at full, unless for ecoomic flight (P-40 and I-16 excluded, there you need to lower RPM to stay in normal mode). So if you have no seperate lever on your throttle, you're still better of binding it on buttons instead of combining it with your throttle lever.

[ACG_KaiLae]

 

Perhaps this will help....

[Finkeren]

I had a another couple of goes too and I really had the bad nose swing at around 80-100km/h. I see what you mean about the nose going left but it still seems to me that is when full authority goes to the rudder. I'm not surprised when there is a long nose, short fuselage and large rudder - the nose will swing all over the place.

 

I uploaded a short (bad) takeoff video. You can see I don't touch the brake at all but it was certainly not smooth. This sure isn't an instructional video.

 

Edit: I was in expert mode and looking down so you could see my control inputs. Until the tail came up it was all rudder.

 

Edit 2: I wonder if the difference with the suspension modelling means that with left rudder etc the torque of the engine is making the right wheel bed into the ground, and when the right wing gets enough lift that wheel doesn't dig in so much meaning you are well over compensating and it turns left. Something like that anyway.

 

 

von Tom

I'm glad to hear, that we're sorta on the same page withwhat we're experiencing, and I think your explanation in your second edit sounds kind of plausible. Though that doesn't explain why I don't experience the same issue with the Fw 190, which I also find has a marked tendency to lift one wing before the other.

 

What I don't understand is why this affects some of us so much more than others. I'm certainly not a very good pilot, but I have been flying this sim since the alpha and can take off in most of the other planes with no trouble at all including the I-16 which has the same combination of short fuselage and big, heavy engine as the MiG.

 

Something has changed for me in a BIG way about the MiGs take off and to me it's so difficult and the punishment for the slightest failure so swift, that even if got used to it at some point, I'd still think it's wrong. The problem is not so much the nose swinging but the very sudden and violent ground loop that follows as soon as the motion starts regardless of how I counter it.

 

I'm trying to figure out the reason and try to check for any issue on my end. I was using a slight s-curve on my pedals and thought that might cause the trouble, so I removed it, but the problem persists.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Finkeren

[216th_Jordan]

Don't worry fink I had to be VERY precise with rudder pedals to not screw up on take off or landing now.

 

Lateral instability was not as impacting before, now with sidewards friction it is, because I find the MiG to swing like it did before, just that it has a real impact now.

Edited October 23, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[Siipiorava]

The MiG is so hard to take off. I try to just keep the plane straight and I always end up in a spin to the left. You can't see the runway before you because of the nose and the turn/slip indicator is useless for judging the amount of rudder needed. I tried watching the replays and looking at the autopilot in game, but I can't replicate their process.

 

I wonder what the original pilot manuals and procedures were with the plane, and if they would be of any use in the game. 

 

[216th_Jordan]

You need to aim for a spot outside your window, a tree, a cloud, something remotely stationary. Focus on that point and keep the plane aligned to it.

[Finkeren]

Don't worry fink I had to be VERY precise with rudder pedals to not screw up on take off or landing now.

 

Lateral instability was not as impacting before, now with sidewards friction it is, because I find the MiG to swing like it did before, just that it has a real impact now.

Sorry if I'm reading too much into this, but I feel like you speak to me as though I don't understand how to take off in these aircraft. I've been flying ever more complex sims for 25 years. I know these things.

 

What I'm saying is, that I'm experiencing behavior in the MiG that's completely different from any of the other aircraft in the sim and which, if it happened IRL, would result in the aircraft being immediately grounded.

[216th_Jordan]

Then you got me wrong All I was trying to say is that the lateral stability of the MiG-3 (ingame) was and is very bad, just that before the patch it did not have an impact as it has now, so when I say "VERY precise" I mean the actual handling, and that is way beyond safe.  I broke some takeoffs too now, after the patch, and was only able to take off when I was immensly focused. (and forcing the tail down) So I'm not defending the MiGs behavior if you think this, as I was rather on your side there.

Edited October 23, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[Finkeren]

Glad to hear it Jordan

 

I guess some of you must be better on those pedals than me. I'm on 100+ attempts now, and I still haven't managed a take off, not even once. You'd think I'd have gotten one just by accident but no.

 

As I said, it might be doable, even for me, but even if it is, something is still wrong here.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Finkeren

[216th_Jordan]

Better leave it in the hanger now before it gets too frustrating :/ Or maybe some good videos could be made which showcase the behavior so it might get corrected soon.

[kissklas]

Tried a few takeoffs now after looking at this thread. I made it like 50% of the times, although almost killing myself in the process some of the time.

That left turn is very violent:-s Would they put a plane with this characteristic into service? Must be a death trap to pilots in training.

I'm sure something is a bit off between the new physics and the FM of the MiG.

 

Edit: Now I'm not so sure any more, just found that if you force the tail down for a bit longer than the plane wants to, you will exceed the speed where it turns violently and you will be able to lower the nose in a controlled manner. Doing this I can take off just fine. Landings however I believe the plane can do better without me as a pilot:p

Edited October 23, 2016 by kissklas

[216th_Jordan]

 if you force the tail down for a bit longer than the plane wants to, you will exceed the speed where it turns violently and you will be able to lower the nose in a controlled manner. Doing this I can take off just fine.

 

This. With landings I still fail in a very high number of attempts, so I created a little video showing the problems.

 

1. Weirdly compared to the other planes the MiG-3 bounces a LOT and quite hard.

2. Groundloops can only be stopped when the movement of the plane is anticipated very early. (thus the plane is almost unsteerable during landing rollout)

3.  Violent tipstalls on landing (my guess would be that normally ground effect would increase AoA enough for this not to occur or the critical AoA is wrong)

 

The Mig-3 in the video features 50% fuel and full flaps on landing.

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Pull joy to belly during run and little after the swing; land at low speed  this work for me. 

[Chief_Mouser]

Ok, so after reading this, I went and tried it myself. 

 

Hello, ground loop. Well this is now harder...

 

However, I found out how to get it off the ground reliably, after some experimentation. Key 1 - never apply right rudder, like said above. Give a good amount of left rudder, and increase throttle right off the bat to about 60%. Adjust rudder as necessary to keep straight, always inputting left rudder. Now what will tend to happen is the plane will start swinging left anyway. At this point, increase power. Basically, you use the throttle as right rudder, because the engine will bring the aircraft right. Also, don't suddenly increase power because this will snap the nose right and you'll probably lose it. Just feed it up slowly to counteract whatever tendency that you have to go left. Eventually the tail will come up and you can lift off shortly thereafter. 

 

I would however suggest that you not take off at the same time as another plane to your left or right, as you do tend to swing left and right while running down the runway, so your path can be somewhat erratic. 

 

Cracked it chaps. Basically, Kai_Lae has it right.

Been to the pub for Sunday lunch, had five pints and decided to do a little experimenting on return.

 

MiG-3. Expert mode or whatever it's called. Three clean takeoffs in a row!!!!!

 

1. Spawn

2. Left rudder full.

3. Throttle to 60% - DO NOT TOUCH BRAKES.... EVER!!!!

4. Control direction with small rudder inputs as speed grows. No stick input and still no brakes!

5. As speed increases throttle up towards 100%. Keep the rudder inputs small. When the tail lifts off, or if it doesn't be prepared to pull gently back on the stick, full throttle if you aren't already there. KEEP THE RUDDER INPUTS SMALL!!!

6. OFF SHE GOES!!!!

 

It's wobbly but manageable, and seems to work every time. Hope this doesn't wear off as the alcohol dissipates   .

Cheers.

 

PS I still think that something changed for the worse in the patch and am not sure that this is how it should be. Cheers.

Edited October 23, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[kissklas]

Cracked it chaps. Basically, Kai_Lae has it right.

 

Yeah, this seems to work pretty well. It's all about keeping the tail down a little longer it seems!

Pull joy to belly during run and little after the swing; land at low speed  this work for me. 

The landings I have yet to figure out completely. It wants to topple over even after the wheels are all planted. Feels like I'm landing the U-2!

 

[LoneStar_47]

Here's what I did to troubleshoot this problem...

 

1. Reviewed four videos of live takeoffs of Mig-3 (that's all I could find). In three of the videos, I noticed the pilots raised the tailwheels off the runway in about 8 seconds. On one video the landing gear wheels departed the runway in 12 seconds and the other two videos in 18 seconds. All the pilots appeared to use only left rudder input and a degree of nose high stick input.  I could not detect any wobbling or oscillation.

2. I observed the in-game Mig-3 on autopilot during takeoff. Power=100% and Mixture=100% confirmed but viewing the controls and Technochat. Full power is applied and the stick is pushed forward I guessing about 10 degrees (not back). When the Mig starts rolling, I can barely see the bottom of the zero on the Artificial Horizon gauge. When the Mig accelerates to about 130-140 kph, the stick is gradually pushed forward until the zero on the Artificial Horizon is in full view. That stick angle is maintain throughout the remainder of the takeoff.

 

Using the above procedure, I'm able to stay on the runway and takeoff without ground looping. Unfortunately, it's not always relatively straight down the runway. It's difficult to gauge the edge of the runway with this nose high setup. The autopilot has the same difficulty.

 

Although the above procedure works for me, I do not know if this procedure or any of the others covered here are correct. I have not been able to find any Mig-3 documentation, i.e. manuals, pilot notes, etc. covering take-off and landing procedures for comparison. We do not know if current behavior is accurate. The only information I could find is the Mig-3 required a lot more pilot training than other Soviet aircraft. I do find it hard to believe the they wobbled and oscillated down the runway like they had just finished a Vodka binge. One video briefly shows a group of Mig-3s taking off in formation. Trying that with the current behavior would probably be a disaster.

 

I believe the problem might be related to the ground friction changes. The changes might be accurate but without actual takeoff procedures, we cannot know if it is accurate. Also,the runway surface makes a difference. Using my procedure, takeoff from a concrete runway (BoM-Lapino) is very straight. Takieoff from grass field (BoM), is for the most part straight. Takeoff from a dirt runway (BoM), keeping straight is very difficult. Again, I do not know if the Soviet Mig-3 pilots had this same difficulty or the procedures they may used.

 

Video #1 ​  Concrete runway. Takeoff begins around 30-35 seconds in video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZGmYzCfRgw

 

​Video #2​  Concrete runway. Takeoff begins at start of video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwfb9LtZX4

 

​Video #3​ Grass runway. Takeoff begins around 40 seconds in video. Looks like the same Mig-3 in Video #2

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq84KS-1wJI

​

Video #4​  From a Mig-3 documentary. At about 1:15 in video, shows Mig-3s taking off in groups. Look quick, it's a short sequence.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQL47Ulo1-8

 

Unfortunately, Videos 1-3 do not name the pilots. I would be great if one of our community members new the names of the pilots. Can contact the pilots and give a summary of their takeoff and landing procedures. I believe all of us would like to know what the real Mig-3 relates to the virtual Mig-3

 

Hope this is received constructively...not trying to be negative. Any community recommendations or comments are welcomed.

[kissklas]

Those videos are great:) In the second video, I'm not seeing much wobble, and he seems to tap the rudder to adjust. The tail wheel also lifts up very early, compared to what I tried.

PS: Found out what I did wrong on my landings at least! I must have applied a bit of rotation when pulling back the stick. The roll on that MiG is so sensitive!

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Those rebuilt MiGs also use Allison engines, so maybe behaves a little different. 

[kissklas]

Those rebuilt MiGs also use Allison engines, so maybe behaves a little different. 

 

Plus the aircraft might be lighter without all the guns and ammo? Hmm...going to have a few more tries, lifting the tail earlier and see what I can do anyways.

[NachtJaeger110]

I just had a look at this.

 

on first take off, the exact same swing happened to me. had absolutely no chance and crashed.

 

then I tried another and to my amazement- everything was back to normal. 10 Take offs now without any specific technique and all were good without any break out.

 

How I performed all of the take offs:

 

full rpm, full mix, full throttle, full open rads, no flaps, full up trim and everything went fine.

 

If I'm not going crazy or did something different after the first one I can't think of, this is an issue that affects some people, others not, and some only once...

 

Edit:

in Case thats relevant:

I'm using the saitek cessna rudder pedals and MS FFB2 Stick

Edited October 23, 2016 by NachtJaeger110

[LoneStar_47]

 

 

Those

 

 

 

the

 

I sure that has an effect. One problem with the handling of the Mig-3 was the short fuselage and long nose. It would be interesting to get the pilots viewpoint as well any records of the WW2 Soviet pilots comments if any exist.

[216th_Jordan]

Thank you Finkeren I was starting  to think it was just me.... ...here is a link to my last attempts....https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s7iwz0vfvc1lsfv/AABw4dSmsnKgJlOxa1lMpYWGa?dl=0      sorry first attempt at dropbox....If it does not work let me know...thanks

 

What I found when reviewing those tracks is that you veer off to one side but give no rudder correction, hence the plane loops. The faster the MiG gets, the less rudder is needed. Take a point parallel to your cockpit and try to keep you plane straight by focusing on that point (clouds are best for this). Its not easy but doable, add to that a little stick to belly and you should be more successful.

 

Also put your Mixture to 100% so you have full takeoff power.

 

Thanks for providing the tracks!

Edited October 23, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[kissklas]

I sure that has an effect. One problem with the handling of the Mig-3 was the short fuselage and long nose. It would be interesting to get the pilots viewpoint as well any records of the WW2 Soviet pilots comments if any exist.

 

Just found this now. It seems this pilot is describing the exact issue.

 

 

[Cathaoir]

Thank you Kai_Lae!!!!  and Cat...your procedure works for me....got some throttle timing issues but I am getting into the air....the only thing that I may be doing different maybe is I have 0% pitch right now due to my throttle timing and bout -15% yaw and the stick to my chest.....60% throttle to start get it straight and start slowly throttling up.with small rudder adjustments. .Need to do some fine tuning but that is all on me now....I can not thank everyone enough for working to find a workable solution...Oh and by the way Cat a couple of beers did help....  

Almost forgot I is still very twitchy and any sudden rudder adjustments will send you into a loop.  get as straight as you can early...small rudder adjustments and smooth throttle increase.  Thanks again to all.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The steerable tail wheel on the Mig and P40 works exactly like the one on the Stearman I got some stick time on last year.

 

I asked if the owner/pilot would demonstrate how it worked for me, as at that time we were still questioning the ground handling in the sim, and he kindly did.

 

After a certain degree of deflection of the tail wheel the spring loaded detent will release it so as to prevent damage to the steering mechanism.  I was watching the rudder pedals as he purposely made that happen on the taxiway before take off.

 

It took a concerted effort to provoke unlatching the tail wheel from the steering mechanism.

 

I'm thinking a bit of tuning of the rudder curve might be in order.

 

Here I am in front of said Stearman.

 

[kissklas]

After a certain degree of deflection of the tail wheel the spring loaded detent will release it so as to prevent damage to the steering mechanism. I was watching the rudder pedals as he purposely made that happen on the taxiway before take off.

 

It took a concerted effort to provoke unlatching the tail wheel from the steering mechanism.

 

I'm thinking a bit of tuning of the rudder curve might be in order.

That is very interesting. So you think the tail slipping is the wheel being unlatched and making the plane slip?

 

Ps: Lovely plane, and awesome beard!

[Matt]

Actually the Mig-3 and P-40 tail wheels work very differently. On the P-40, it's steerable at small rudder deflections and fully castoring at higher rudder inputs. On the Mig-3 it's locked and after certain amount of rudder input, it becomes steerable. So on take-off, the Mig-3 needs stronger rudder input (so that you steer the tail wheel a bit), while on the P-40, you should use as little rudder input as possible, because otherwise the tail wheel will become unlocked and uncontrollable.

[Cathaoir]

Just thought I would share a couple take-offs.....anyone who viewed my other link will see a difference....one is in QM and the other is in PWCG....not pretty but I am getting into the air.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0m3uh9znksea7fn/AABr6gfo0O2z8EaQ8PgozczBa?dl=0.....I feel so good I think I will have another Beer.....

[von_Tom]

Should have left the techno chatter on. 

 

 

I take the point that it would help understand inputs, but I much prefer going by the dials and levers for immersion reasons.  I never look at the technochat as it clutters my screen and it'd probably stop me looking at my instruments.  I do use the compass thing sometimes for those aircraft where you have to be a contortionist to see it.

 

von Tom

[ACG_KaiLae]

This. With landings I still fail in a very high number of attempts, so I created a little video showing the problems.

 

1. Weirdly compared to the other planes the MiG-3 bounces a LOT and quite hard.

2. Groundloops can only be stopped when the movement of the plane is anticipated very early. (thus the plane is almost unsteerable during landing rollout)

3.  Violent tipstalls on landing (my guess would be that normally ground effect would increase AoA enough for this not to occur or the critical AoA is wrong)

 

The Mig-3 in the video features 50% fuel and full flaps on landing.

 

 

Oddly, I'm not having the same issues mostly. I find the MiG lands real nice from my experience. Perhaps it's speed? I'm using 50% flaps and likely coming in faster.

[LoneStar_47]

 

 

Just

 

Nice find Kissklass. Unfortunately, he did not elaborate on how he overcame the problem.

[Siipiorava]

Thanks to the advice given in this thread, I am now able to take off somewhat reliably from a field. I am still unable to keep the plane straight, from a runway, my takeoffs would not succeed.

Tips I found most helpful:

1. Full throttle/Full left rudder takeoff. (this is probably the reason for swerving, but it makes it easier to judge the amount of rudder needed.)

2. Never right rudder, if you need to go right just ease the left foot a bit, let the engine do the rest.

3. Trim nose up, I like to keep it at 50% (this helps the nose from hitting the ground once the tail raises)

[kissklas]

Nice find Kissklass. Unfortunately, he did not elaborate on how he overcame the problem.

Sadly, no:-/ He did however elaborate on how a ground crew member fell off the tail of a yak-1 from 50m... Ouch:-s

[Brano]

AM-35A engine has larger volume/size/weight then Allison. It's huge and long,together with prop creates lots of momentum and combined with rather short tail of MiG there is no wonder it swings on take-off. I will try to dig some data on pilots instructions as now I have only "Kratkoe opisanie samoleta MiG-3" issued for airforce academy in Monino,which is in fact technical description without pilots instructions. Only info it has use full flaps (50°) for landing at speed ~144km/h and for take off 20° if needed.

The swing after tail wheel is of the ground is maybe more pronounced due to better friction of main wheels. It wasn't easy before patch but most probably due to less friction plane could "skate" a bit to the side and compensate a bit.

[Voidhunger]

I tried it today and its not a big deal. With my cheap Thrustmaster T16000M joystick its easy. Just keep the plane straight with the rudder.

No flaps, no trim.

[Finkeren]

Still the same for me, I just can't do it 

 

Doesn't matter how careful my movements are. Still the same result, every single time.

 

Frustrating doesn't even begin to describe it. It's at a point, where I don't even want to crack the code. It should not be like this.