Developer Diary, Part 135 - Discussion

[Dutchvdm]

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

 

OMG... Stop being so dramatic. Fly a Lagg and try to shoot down some 109's.... In regard to the video. They changed the damage model of the 110 and they lowered the performance of the Yak. It's fine to address things that are not right, but this is just plain counterproductive..

 

Grt M 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

 

As a LW-only pilot, stop blowing smoke out of your ass. There is no "pro VVS" policy FFS. 

 

*insert my profile photo here*

[LukeFF]

As a LW-only pilot, stop blowing smoke out of your ass. There is no "pro VVS" policy FFS. 

 

*insert my profile photo here*

 

Amen

[PatrickAWlson]

As a LW-only pilot, stop blowing smoke out of your ass. There is no "pro VVS" policy FFS. 

 

*insert my profile photo here*

 

+1.  Folks really need to stop blowing a disagreement (maybe even a legitimate one) into a conspiracy.  

[Jade_Monkey]

As someone who flies both sides (often VVS to balance), there is no conspiracy here.

 

Its true that some VVS planes feel tougher, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

[Gambit21]

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

 

Want some cheese to go with your whine?

Get a grip.

You and your ilk are the very reason the term "Luftwhiner" was coined in the first place.

[MigSu]

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

well, i have known that plane was especially weak in the middle wing due to engine installation, so open like a w...... at any external stimulation. 

[4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile]

 

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

 

20. False claims on future or past decisions and plans of the developers, which are not backed by hyperlinks or other facts are prohibited.

Violations of this rule will result in the following:

First offense - 7 days ban on entry

 

 

Give the guy a break he is just as frustrated as a lot of silent people here, only to mention flaps, flaps, flaps, flaps and flaps LOL, don't forget flaps btw.

 

S! Veltro

[Jade_Monkey]

Instead of banning for 7 days you should have restricted his planeset to VVS only for a month. Maybe he would even learn a thing or two XD

[4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile]

As someone who flies both sides (often VVS to balance), there is no conspiracy here.

 

Its true that some VVS planes feel tougher, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

 

Do you use flaps in dogfights on both sides then or ?

[Jade_Monkey]

Always, for landing.

[ShamrockOneFive]

As someone who flies both sides (often VVS to balance), there is no conspiracy here.

 

Its true that some VVS planes feel tougher, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

 

100%

 

Perspective is gained when people fly all of the aircraft from fighter to bomber and from Axis to Allies.

[Gambit21]

Very pleasing news. I've been waiting for COOP so long. Now I only need to find a good wingmen to fly with me 

 

What time zone to you fly in usually?

[Gambit21]

100%

 

Perspective is gained when people fly all of the aircraft from fighter to bomber and from Axis to Allies.

 

Yep

I discovered several favorite planes in the old sim by 'flying slack' which is whatever side needed players.

In fact that was always my policy, regardless of what my favorite plane was. It's how I ended up loving the Zeke and the I16.

I can't relate to the "German only" or "VVS only" thing - although in this new IL2 I find that I do gravitate toward the Russian planes, which wasn't the case before.

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

 

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

 

 

As someone who flies both sides (often VVS to balance), there is no conspiracy here.

 

Its true that some VVS planes feel tougher, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

Both are right, ...Russian planes have disadvantages too, but they seem tougher because the Damage Model is not good for any of both two sides.

I ve seen many times Russian airplanes  in many servers performing tighten turns, damaged with an elevator ripped, and flying like nothing happened.

In other cases, i ´ve seen Germans and Russian planes blowing all-types smoke, from wings and fuselage, half an hour, and they continued fighting even when they should have drained everything of fuel, cooling liquid, oil, and all f*cking things, that may be leaking.. 

 

Give the guy a break he is just as frustrated as a lot of silent people here, only to mention flaps, flaps, flaps, flaps and flaps LOL, don't forget flaps btw.

 

 

Do you use flaps in dogfights on both sides then or ?

Same thing for the flaps deployment. I think that VFe (Velocity Flap extended), and VFo (Velocity Flap Operation) are not modeled properly for all airplanes in the game, specially the Yak´s because in this game, Yak can deploy the flaps at any speed (progressively and against the airstream) without any penalty in turning performance, stability, etc, and that use was not the Instant deployment use (with pneumatic actuator) as in the real life for landing only. 

On the other hand, It is very well documented that Bf-109 pilots, was using 5 or 10º of flaps deployment, for overturns the Spitfires in dogfight during Battle of Britain. It possible that the Lagg, should do the same because it is capable to progressive flaps deployment, like Bf-109, but never like today in the game at 600 km/h, because flaps would be ripped, and the aircraft would be damaged.

 

Some of the things that developers should consider:

1/The Fuel tank position in the aircraft, and bullet hit position ... (There are not fuel tank in the wingtips, and it is not possible a leakage in the wingtips)

2/ When the tanks are punctured.The Draining time, of the fuel, oil, tanks and cooling radiator damage model must be improved, (considering the ability of the Bf-109 F and G, for shut-off the damaged radiators).

3/ German duralumin fuselages was stronger than Russian birchwood fuselages.

Edited October 30, 2016 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[Crump]

Instead of banning for 7 days you should have restricted his planeset to VVS only for a month. Maybe he would even learn a thing or two XD

 

Banning folks from a small community with a niche market is probably not the thing to do.  Better to offer a reasonable explanation or a simple "we will look into it" and let the community help guys out.

[Dakpilot]

3/ German duralumin fuselages was stronger than Russian birchwood fuselages.

 

 

Except that Yak 1 fuselage is tubular steel frame....

 

 

 

 

Same thing for the flaps deployment. I think that VFe (Velocity Flap extended), and VFo (Velocity Flap Operation) are not modeled properly for all airplanes in the game, specially the Yak´s because in this game, Yak can deploy the flaps at any speed (progressively and against the airstream) without any penalty in turning performance, stability, etc, and that use was not the Instant deployment use (with pneumatic actuator) as in the real life for landing only. 

 

In Yak 1 flight manual there is procedure to leave flaps out after takeoff and allow airflow to push back in fully before setting 'retract' (to avoid sink) the fact that this is an approved procedure would indicate VFe and VFo are not fixed speeds in Yak 1

 

there is a minimum recommended flap retract speed though, and pilots testimonies of using flaps when attacking bombers but not used when in combat with fighters due to drag and speed loss being more detrimental than gains 

 

I am not debating whether Yak flaps are correct but some of the 'myths' need to be clarified, same with Yak 1 'stalinwood' fuselage when in fact it has steel tubular frame, which i 'imagine' is stronger than duralumin

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 30, 2016 by Dakpilot

[Lusekofte]

The 75 mm gun would be wayyyy out of the timeline (it only showed up in late 1944 in and around East Prussia), not to mention it would necessitate modeling a telescopic gunsight - technology that the game engine doesn't model yet. MK 101 and MK 103 are well within the timeline being simulated. 37 mm I doubt will show up, for the reasons you gave and because it was only ever an experimental loadout. The 4 x MG 17 gunpod is a gray area - it shows up in all the relevant Hs 129 manuals, but all available evidence shows it was never used operationally. My guess is they'll model it, but we'll see.

 

Well why did we get the JU 87 G1-/2  for Stalingrad? I see absolutely no reason for not having th 75 mm gun. This game is not exact history anyway. 

[Dakpilot]

Well why did we get the JU 87 G1-/2  for Stalingrad? I see absolutely no reason for not having th 75 mm gun. This game is not exact history anyway. 

 

 

Ju-87 (G0) G1 was tested operationally on Russian front in 42, and first introduced in early Feb 43 with PanzerJagdkommando Weiss so not that seriously far out of timeframe, even if not used at Stalingrad front

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The Ju-87 G-1 fits the Stalingrad planeset as much as the G-6 does Kuban.Both were there at some point, not at the time the main battle took place though.

 

There has been a developer statement in the past which fit this discussion nicely. It said that although stickign to the historical battles as close as possible was the main goal some decisions were taken that did not fit the historical model, namely including the Fw-190 and Ju-87 G-1 for the Stalingrad edition or some of the included aircraft modifications.

 

To get back to the topic, the Henschel first reccieved the 75mm Pak in late 1944/early 1945 and were all deployed in Poland.

Edited October 30, 2016 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[Crump]

 

 

there is a minimum recommended flap retract speed though, and pilots testimonies of using flaps when attacking bombers but not used when in combat with fighters due to drag and speed loss being more detrimental than gains    I am not debating whether Yak flaps are correct but some of the 'myths' need to be clarified, same with Yak 1 'stalinwood' fuselage when in fact it has steel tubular frame, which i 'imagine' is stronger than duralumin

 

If there is a minimum flap retraction speed then there are obvious limits to the system.

 

An intact tubular steel frame is stronger than duralumin.  The problem is the fabric covering that steel tubing is not very resistant especially to explosive damage and the tubular steel construction strength degrades rather quickly when those tubular supports become missing or weakened by bullets.

[Dakpilot]

As far as I remember the recommended minimum flap retraction speed on Yak 1 is related to avoiding sink after takeoff, not specific to limits of the system

 

Many people think the Yak has a full wooden Fuselage structure like Lagg 3, that was really the only point I was trying to make

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crump]

 

 

As far as I remember the recommended minimum flap retraction speed on Yak 1 is related to avoiding sink after takeoff, not specific to limits of the system

 

The sink after take off is the system self retracting....LOL

 

In other words, I highly doubt a pneumatic system could remain deployed at high airspeeds. 

[Crump]

If you have run the performance numbers on the Yak...it does not need any flaps and is one of the best angle fighters in the game.  I have not done a detailed analysis comparing it to the Spitfire series but based on its line up to the Bf-109 and FW-190, it is very similar and I would guess even a little better than its contemporary Spitfire variant.

 

I can see why the VVS were not all that impressed by the Spitfire after flying Yak's and Lavochkins.

[Dakpilot]

The sink after take off is the system self retracting....LOL

 

In other words, I highly doubt a pneumatic system could remain deployed at high airspeeds. 

 

No you can retract them as well as being self retracting at speed

 

The manual recommends leaving them to retract from airflow to avoid sink

 

there are three positions up down and neutral, in game we only have up and down mechanic so Yak flaps are always treated as self retracting from airflow  when selected down

 

They do not remain deployed at high speed

 

The whole Yak flap subject has a giant thread with all info, speeds they retract etc.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[wtornado]

In dserver mode ? 

Not at all run it right off your computer you do not need Dserver in ROF to fly co-ops

[Crump]

The manual recommends leaving them to retract from airflow to avoid sink

 

That appears to be the exact opposite of what you just said:

 

 

 

As far as I remember the recommended minimum flap retraction speed on Yak 1 is related to avoiding sink after takeoff, not specific to limits of the system

 

If you have a maximum flap extrended operating speed (Vfe) then you must retract the flaps before reaching that speed.  That means reaching over and selecting the flaps to the up position before reaching that Vfe.  That is usually due to physical limitations of the flaps system design and overspeeding them is cause for enacting a maintenance procedure for overspeeding the flaps.

 

Self retracting the flaps means excessive pressure on the system would be exerted and that pressure must bleed off somewhere even if the seals remain intact.

 

Usually that procedure is an inspection of the system for damage, repair and replace as necessary.  No damage means no repair and the aircraft is returned to service. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by Crump

[Dakpilot]

Where in any way have I mentioned a Vfe maximum flap retract speed, because there is not one

 

as i said earlier the actual Yak flap mechanics are simplified in BoS we have up or down there is at present no option for neutral, the Yak flap situation/mechanics is not replicated in its entirety

 

the manual/PoH clearly states that you can leave flaps out to be retracted slowly by airflow as airspeed increases with no damage

 

It is 'recommended' to leave flaps to be gradually pushed in by airflow to avoid sink by fully retracting in 'one go' there being no incremental setting

 

to achieve this IRL some steps would have to be taken, I.E putting in neutral, because we do not have this function in BoS, it is simplified in much the same way as engine start up, it is simulated, procedure is there, but you do not have control.

 

This simulation allows flaps to auto adjust in game as airspeed changes, which is correct , the speeds which this occurred were covered before, if I remember they start to retract at about  220kmh, I don't recall the speed at which they are fully retracted, but this "mechanic'' in game has led to much misunderstanding and accusations of Yaks not being affected by drag of flaps at high /medium speed because even when left 'down' or 'full' they are in fact retracted.

 

This simplification of controls and misunderstanding of unique Yak pneumatic flap system has led to much angst! implementation of the need to manually select 'neutral' would do much to stop all the "magic flap" Yakcopter" etc. comments and go a long way to stop this auto flap 'exploit' in tight combat maneuvers, you would have to juggle between UP, DOWN, NEUTRAL, to achieve what happens now automatically, while flaps will auto retract IRL as in the game (if assumed they were in neutral), they should not auto deploy relative to airspeed without selecting 'down' manually and even this is debateable 

 

using 'combat' flaps is well documented, F4F, 109, P-38, F6F etc. there is nothing new or unusual in this. the fact that it is easy to  'auto' use in the Yak is wrong in a historical  essence, but you will still get correct drag and mostly (after all aircraft flap drag fix) the drag from flap deployment at lower speed is too disadvantageous to be of benefit 

 

In combat against Bomber formations, use of flaps is discussed by veteran VVS pilots, but rejected as not advantageous  in combat against fighters due to speed loss from drag

 

there is an issue with Yak flaps in BoS, but the reason is often misunderstood

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crump]

Where in any way have I mentioned a Vfe maximum flap retract speed, because there is not one

 

I misunderstood you and it seemed that your statement was talking about a Vfe not a Vfr.

 

 

 

As far as I remember the recommended minimum flap retraction speed on Yak 1 is related to avoiding sink after takeoff, not specific to limits of the system  

 

It does not relates to a speed you must have the flaps up in order to avoid an uncommanded sink due to the flaps self retracting.

 

Obviously this is mistranslation.  

 

This is a Vfr speed.  It is not to avoid "sink" but rather a stall.  That speed is the same as 1G stall speed.  If you retract the flaps below that speed, the clean wing cannot fly.

 

Sink is completely different and generally occurs at or near Vfe where you can get large moments as the flaps move.  That is why I thought you were talking about a Vfe and not a Vfr speed.  For example, it good practice the flaps up in the middle of their envelope to avoid the large moments created when they are retracted at high speeds near Vfe.  It makes for a smoother ride for the passengers and increases the airframes resistance to gusting as you climb thru the fluffy white clouds.

 

You still get moments when the flaps move but it just not as noticeable and much softer than at higher speeds plus you do not have the flaps rumbling either.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Crump

[303_Kwiatek]

 

We can only hope this game will turn fast in the right way again, recovering its credibility. The pro VVS policy has reached the border line.

 

20. False claims on future or past decisions and plans of the developers, which are not backed by hyperlinks or other facts are prohibited.

Violations of this rule will result in the following:

First offense - 7 days ban on entry

 

 

Hmm looking at these video there is really something strange with Pe-2 DM expecially with tailsection.  In repeated test she got many hits in tailsection without any noticable damage ( no bullet hits, not loose elevator surface,  no elevator control damage etc). Looks like Pe2 tailsection is bullet proof in some way.

Edited January 4, 2017 by 303_Kwiatek

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Hmm looking at these video there is really something strange with Pe-2 DM expecially with tailsection.  In repeated test she got many hits in tailsection without any noticable damage ( no bullet hits, not loose elevator surface,  no elevator control damage etc). Looks like Pe2 tailsection is bullet proof in some way.

And that video is going on a year old...

[303_Kwiatek]

But there are much fresh others which show the similar situation with Pe2 at least

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

100%

 

Perspective is gained when people fly all of the aircraft from fighter to bomber and from Axis to Allies.

I only fly Luftie but have learned the performance of VVS aircraft by studying and engaging them. There is no conspiracy. Know your enemy and fight to your strengths not theirs!