Developer Diary, Part 135 - Discussion

[kissklas]

Gielow, it simply means "maybe in 15 years, after we're done with Pacific, Africa, Italy and Fall Weserübung" (yes, i think it would be cool to fly over Norwegian landscape)

Home sweet home! I would love that too. West country fjords would be pretty awesome... Weren't there som work on a Murmansk map done a while back?

[Lusekofte]

Well I like things I see and the plans ahead, Remember without a successful BOK there might not be a Midway. 

I wish for a huge gun on the HS 129 and a 3,7 for  the 110. They be easy targets with that armament. And a lot of fun to fly. 

[Matt]

 

 

I wish for a huge gun on the HS 129 and a 3,7 for  the 110.

 

Well, they are 50% done then.

 

[actionjoe]

The whole idea of putting such big cannon on (WWII) aircraft I find fascinating, whether Il2,stuka or whatever.

 

Well, it wasn't really a "new" idea

 

 

That's also a 37mm, not used against tanks of course, but on balloons and Zeppelins.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Bigger question to me is what loadout options the Hs-129 is supposed to get. Unlike the Bf-110 or Fw-190 it's a dedicated ground attacker with no other buisness than killing tanks so armarment is going to be important to make this bird worth.

 

However, most loadout that made the Hs-129 effective like hollow charge bombs and the Bk.7,5 were introduced way later than the cutoff date for BoK...

 

The 75mm probably wont be there, maybe the 37mm but someone here said it wasn't accepted because the gun pod proved to be very draggy. What I can guess is that it will get a 4x MG pod and the 30mm MK 101/103. That one would be very good, the HVAP rounds of that 30mm could penetrate almost any tank of WW2 from the side and every one from the rear. It will have less pen and damage than the German 37mm (yet more pen than Russian 37mm), and the rate of fire could prove more useful.

[Dakpilot]

 

 

When 37mm simply won't do

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Bigger question to me is what loadout options the Hs-129 is supposed to get. Unlike the Bf-110 or Fw-190 it's a dedicated ground attacker with no other buisness than killing tanks so armarment is going to be important to make this bird worth.

 

However, most loadout that made the Hs-129 effective like hollow charge bombs and the Bk.7,5 were introduced way later than the cutoff date for BoK...

My point is there is no "mission accomplished" performance increase with German BoK plane set due to time line mod restrictions.

 

There is nothing that I cannot do better right now with BoM/BoS german plane set than BoK restricted one will do.

 

 

Tank busting missions for example, the biggest tank killers now are the 110s and 88s using 50kg bombs at point blank range. The new 110 bk37, the only thing new available, won't change much the battle because the twins cannons on stuka only gets 1 or 2 medium tanks average each sortie. Hs129 30mm won't scratch T34s considering what we have going on now with stukas.

 

111 H16 with no turret will have a more restricted defensive field of fire than on H6 and 88s from diving side attacks. The increase on fire power will be useless unless someone decide to park behind a bomber.

 

G4 is a G2.

 

Maybe the A5 will shine, but the payload will be pretty much the same from A3.

 

Thus, Devs should heavily invest on 110, 111 and 129 mods, no matter the time line. So we can have true new planes to game.

 

Anyway, there always be the Ju52

Edited October 17, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[Urra]

Well, it wasn't really a "new" idea

 

 

That's also a 37mm, not used against tanks of course, but on balloons and Zeppelins.

.

 

Looks like it might have had 4wd also. Really Ahead of its time.

[LukeFF]

 

 

the twins cannons on stuka only gets 1 or 2 medium tanks average each sortie.

 

You make that sound like it's a bad thing. 

[LukeFF]

 

 

The 75mm probably wont be there, maybe the 37mm but someone here said it wasn't accepted because the gun pod proved to be very draggy. What I can guess is that it will get a 4x MG pod and the 30mm MK 101/103.

 

The 75 mm gun would be wayyyy out of the timeline (it only showed up in late 1944 in and around East Prussia), not to mention it would necessitate modeling a telescopic gunsight - technology that the game engine doesn't model yet. MK 101 and MK 103 are well within the timeline being simulated. 37 mm I doubt will show up, for the reasons you gave and because it was only ever an experimental loadout. The 4 x MG 17 gunpod is a gray area - it shows up in all the relevant Hs 129 manuals, but all available evidence shows it was never used operationally. My guess is they'll model it, but we'll see.  

[Gunsmith86]

ank busting missions for example, the biggest tank killers now are the 110s and 88s using 50kg bombs at point blank range. The new 110 bk37, the only thing new available, won't change much the battle because the twins cannons on stuka only gets 1 or 2 medium tanks average each sortie. Hs129 30mm won't scratch T34s considering what we have going on now with stukas.

 

Well there you are wrong the 110 with BK 3,7 has 66 rounds for the 37mm cannon, its reloded every 6 rounds by the gunner so you dont have to fly back home after just 12 rounds fired. For the HS 129 there you will have 30 rounds with the 30mm MK 101 which fires much quicker than the BK 3,7 so you can hit much more shots in the same time you fire once with the BK 3,7. With the MK 103 you have 80 rounds and it fires nearly twice as fast as the MK 101 so its much simpler to take out tanks with them. Also the HS 129 could carry the 50 kg bombs as well.

 

For the MK 108 in the 110 in 1943 well you wouldn´t want to use it after the first trys ( if you survive ).

- stoped working after first shot belt brocken,

- round exploded before loaded completely ( would blow off most of your 110 nose )

- extractor brocken

...

Edited October 17, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

 The 4 x MG 17 gunpod is a gray area - it shows up in all the relevant Hs 129 manuals, but all available evidence shows it was never used operationally. My guess is they'll model it, but we'll see.

 

That would be only useful for trucks and other soft targets, so I don't think they would have a huge impact in the plane's performance as a ground attacker, nothing the stock 2 x mgs and 2 x 20mms can't handle, though nice to have I guess.

 

Well there you are wrong the 110 with BK 3,7 has 66 rounds for the 37mm cannon, its reloded every 6 rounds by the gunner so you dont have to fly back home after just 12 rounds fired. For the HS 129 there you will have 30 rounds with the 30mm MK 101 which fires much quicker than the BK 3,7 so you can hit much more shots in the same time you fire once with the BK 3,7. With the MK 103 you have 80 rounds and it fires nearly twice as fast as the MK 101 so its much simpler to take out tanks with them. Also the HS 129 could carry the 50 kg bombs as well.

 

Something important to note is that they are center mounted guns, so accuracy will be much better vs the gun pods in the Stuka.

[Asgar]

I like the cannons we have seen so far. There is only one thing we haven't seen so far, that i would like to have. WG21 rockets for the Bf 110. they're in the timeline. were they used over kuban? i don't know. but neither were the BK 3,7 on the Stuka over Stalingrad. 

[Voidhunger]

I like the cannons we have seen so far. There is only one thing we haven't seen so far, that i would like to have. WG21 rockets for the Bf 110. they're in the timeline. were they used over kuban? i don't know. but neither were the BK 3,7 on the Stuka over Stalingrad. 

 

 

 

1. WGr21 first ordered to install on 2. August 1943, and on 15 August 1943, first Bf110G-2's delivered from factories with /M5 designation, carrying 4 x 210mm missles. They were supplied to III./ZG26. Soon, during autumn 1943, all "Reich defence" Gruppen of Bf110 and Me410 were equipped with WGr.21. It saw combat use only from late aug. 1943, and only on Western front.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Well there you are wrong the 110 with BK 3,7 has 66 rounds for the 37mm cannon, its reloded every 6 rounds by the gunner so you dont have to fly back home after just 12 rounds fired. For the HS 129 there you will have 30 rounds with the 30mm MK 101 which fires much quicker than the BK 3,7 so you can hit much more shots in the same time you fire once with the BK 3,7. With the MK 103 you have 80 rounds and it fires nearly twice as fast as the MK 101 so its much simpler to take out tanks with them. Also the HS 129 could carry the 50 kg bombs as well.

 

For the MK 108 in the 110 in 1943 well you wouldn´t want to use it after the first trys ( if you survive ).

- stoped working after first shot belt brocken,

- round exploded before loaded completely ( would blow off most of your 110 nose )

- extractor brocken

...

66 rounds is a good number. The problem is that 110s will lose its wing on the first aaa hit and game over. If Devs could fix this...

 

I don't think rate of fire is the problem with the 37mm.

 

I really hope mk cannons can kill tanks better than the 37.

 

There are no failures simulation on this game. Everything is 100% operational or half of Yaks, Laggs and Las would not be able to take off

 

So 108 will be fine.

Edited October 17, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[Yogiflight]

But MK108 was not for tank hunting, because of its very short barrel, the projectiles had very low muzzle velocity. It was designed, first to fit into fighters, and second to shoot mine projectiles. My guess is, that it was also mainly used in the "Reichsverteidigung", against the heavy 4mot bombers.

[Finkeren]

But MK108 was not for tank hunting, because of its very short barrel, the projectiles had very low muzzle velocity. It was designed, first to fit into fighters, and second to shoot mine projectiles. My guess is, that it was also mainly used in the "Reichsverteidigung", against the heavy 4mot bombers.

Well, the Mk 108 became standard armament for the Bf 109 and was used everywhere. But for the Bf 110 you could argue, that it was mainly used for night fighters and Pulkzerstörers, though it was probably used for ground attack as well.

 

However, you are right in saying, that the Mk 108 was developed as an air-to-air weapon and would be quite ineffective against a heavily armoured target.

 

In that sense it should function much like the M4 on the P-39. IIRC the VVS never used Armour piercing ammo for it, and even with AP ammo its muzzle velocity was not really sufficient to make it an effective anti-tank weapon.

[Yogiflight]

Are you sure, that the MK108 was really the standart weapon of the late 109 versions. TD removed it in one of the later patches as standart weapon in IL2 1946. And I think I read, that it was even in the 109 only used in home defense. But I might be wrong, of course.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

^{The idea behind mk108 on 110s is to have air to air snap shots turned into kills and head to head attacks into suicide for the Russians. Nothing to do with tank busting.}

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The 75mm probably wont be there, maybe the 37mm but someone here said it wasn't accepted because the gun pod proved to be very draggy. What I can guess is that it will get a 4x MG pod and the 30mm MK 101/103.

The Mk.103, if coming, will be the only thing to make this a worthy tank killer. The only other weapons it could carry were up to 6x SC-50, 24x Sd-2 (not ingame) and Bdc-10 (not ingame).

[Gunsmith86]

With my post about the MK 108 i did not want to sugest that it was used against tanks. I just wanted to show what you would have get if one was build into a plane in 1943.

 

Should it be included into the game now or later?

I would say do it now and let the use of the right weapons at the right time to mission builders.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I would say do it now and let the use of the right weapons at the right time to mission builders.

That is what I keep saying since BoS was a alpha on Lapino map.

 

There was no such thing as mod restrictions due to time line on IL2 46.

 

Maybe no mods restrictions was one of 46s greatest success secrets. Just wondering...

Edited October 18, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Gielow

[Yogiflight]

OK, sorry guys, so it was just a misunderstanding from my side.

BTW, Gunsmith, when there were so many problems with the MK108, what about the MK108 in the 109s? Where they really used as standart weapons on the late 109 versions?

[Gunsmith86]

 

BTW, Gunsmith, when there were so many problems with the MK108, what about the MK108 in the 109s? Where they really used as standart weapons on the late 109 versions?

Thats not so many problems. Its just the sort of problems you usually encounter with a new cannon that works well on the ground and is put into a flying airplane. There you encounter forces you never have on the ground which leads to all sort of problems that has to be solved before you can use it reliable in the air.

[LukeFF]

 

 

And I think I read, that it was even in the 109 only used in home defense. But I might be wrong, of course.

 

30 mm-armed 109s were used in the East. 

[JtD]

They were the standard weapon in late war 109's, in particular the Bf109K series.

[Finkeren]

They were the standard weapon in late war 109's, in particular the Bf109K series.

I might be wrong, but I think they standardized the Mk 108 as early as on the G-14. The G-14 was pretty much just a way to standardize and streamline production with all the additions that had accumulated during the G-6s long production run: Erla haube canopy, direction finding equipment, the larger wooden tailfin, upgraded radio etc as well as the Mk 108.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Finkeren

[JtD]

For the G-14 and G-10 the MK108 installation was still designated as /U4. Some secondary sources claim the 30mm cannon was installed more often than the 20mm, at any rate, they were frequent enough to not be an exception.

The Bf109K, however, came with the MK108 in the nose as part of the nominal configuration, which makes it particularly standard here.

[Eclipse4349]

The majority of data through the hyperlobby servers was chat rather than server matchmaking. And obviously, "what if we want to chat" - well, those already exist.

 

Being pretty new to the community, could someone please tell me that exists? I haven't seen any means for players to communicate with other players, except those affiliated with a squadron with their own websites and voice communications.

 

In my opinion, some way for players to communicate outside of a game server is pretty important. Otherwise, we have coop and player-hosted servers, but no way for a player to find another player to make use of these things with. It would be best, I think, to be able to sit in the multi-player lobby and throw a simple, "hey, looking for fighter escort for a mission", or "looking for someone to dogfight", or "looking for an opposing squadron with bombers and fight escort for a scrim", etc etc. It would go a long way to really get multiplayer going strong.

[216th_Peterla]

@Eclipse,

I don't want to mean that the Hyperlobby is not a useful thing but Jason is paying a server of Teamspeak that is almost empty every time I switch in. What the players need is a little more discipline to use those tools that, even if not perfect, are already in place.

[Eclipse4349]

There's a TeamSpeak?? Haha... Hence my question, what do we have that is already in place? Whatever we have, as I demonstrated through not knowing about it... It should be integrated into the game, not provided through a third party that likely most players won't know about.

 

It would be nice to have an in-game chat utility, as others have mentioned.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Eclipse4349

[Bando]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4802-official-teamspeak-server-bos-mp-now/

[Eclipse4349]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4802-official-teamspeak-server-bos-mp-now/

Thanks for the link. That's all well and good, but how would the common player who will never see this forum know that it exists? That's my point - whatever we use, it should be incorporated into the game client itself, not provided by a third party and unknown to the masses.

 

I'm certainly not ungrateful, though. I am anxiously awaiting almost every improvement and addition on the list. Certainly great news and great work. The addition of some kind of in-game chat or coordination utility would make this great feature (coop and hosted servers) a stellar feature. In my humble opinion

Edited October 18, 2016 by Eclipse4349

[Jason_Williams]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25070-discussion-battle-kuban-announcement/page-1

[Eclipse4349]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25070-discussion-battle-kuban-announcement/page-1

"3. Hyperlobby-like interface for COOP Mode."

 

Awesome! That is great to see! Apparently I somehow missed that or completely forgot I read it.

 

You guys are great

[LukeFF]

The G-14 was pretty much just a way to standardize and streamline production with all the additions that had accumulated during the G-6s long production run: Erla haube canopy, direction finding equipment, the larger wooden tailfin, upgraded radio etc as well as the Mk 108.

Pretty much, along with installation of MW50.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Are you sure, that the MK108 was really the standart weapon of the late 109 versions. TD removed it in one of the later patches as standart weapon in IL2 1946. And I think I read, that it was even in the 109 only used in home defense. But I might be wrong, of course.

 

That was because initially the Bf109G-14 we got in IL-2: Forgotten Battles was a Hungarian Bf109G-14 and apparently all of those were fitted standard with the MK108s. However, the scope of the war opened up and it was useful to have MG151/20 equipped Bf109s as multiplayer options too.

 

MK108 is very much an anti-aircraft weapon and not terribly good at ground attack (except light targets). The MK101 and MK103 30mm are vastly different.

 

Compare!

 

MK103

Cartridge: 30 x 184B

Weight: 800 (gram)

Rate of Fire: 380-420 (rpm)

Muzzle velocity: 860-940 (m/s)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_103_cannon

 

MK108 

Cartridge: 30 x 90RB

Weight: 330 (gram)

Rate of Fire: 600-650 (rpm)

Muzzle velocity: 540 (m/s)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_108_cannon

 

The MK103 fires a much heavier projectile at a much faster velocity for a lower rate of fire (the MK101 is even lower). So flying that Hs129 with a MK101/103 equipped will be very different than if you were using a MK108 on a target. Definitely a better anti-tank weapon and likely much easier to use with the single gun installation under the fuselage instead of on the wings like the BK3,7 on the Stuka.

[Boomerang]

Same cannon then as mounted on Stuka during Battle of Kuban.

 

 

And those BK3,7's appear to be rather big!

[707shap_Srbin]

For the MK 108 in the 110 in 1943 well you wouldn´t want to use it after the first trys ( if you survive ).

- stoped working after first shot belt brocken,

- round exploded before loaded completely ( would blow off most of your 110 nose )

- extractor brocken

 

[707shap_Srbin]

 WG21 rockets for the Bf 110. they're in the timeline. were they used over kuban? i don't know. but neither were the BK 3,7 on the Stuka over Stalingrad. 

 

Not again, please.

 

Devs sounded following ten thounsand times, and somebody is still deaf.

 

They count timeline and Eastern front theater.

 

Fw190A-3 is OK for timeline of BoS and OK for Eastern front (NOT JUST Stalingrad area).

Ju87G-1 is OK for timeline of BoS and OK for Eastern front (NOT JUST Stalingrad area).

 

Bf110G-2/R1 is OK for timeline of BoK and OK for Eastern front (NOT JUST Kuban area).

Bf110G-2/R3 is NOT OK for timeline of BoK and NOT OK for Eastern front (NOT JUST Kuban area).

Bf110G-2/M5 is OK for timeline of BoK and NOT OK for Eastern front (NOT JUST Kuban area).

 

How can I explane it even more easier? With graphics for kids? 

Edited October 19, 2016 by I./ZG1_Panzerbar