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Is a B-17E needed for Battle of midway?


Dakpilot
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Do we need or would this aircraft be a good addition to the plane set for Midway?

 

or would it be a potential waste of resources

 

there will be many viewpoints so I will just throw out some pros and cons  :)

 

CONS

 

A lot of manhours to model/research FM and systems

 

4 engine Bomber will be resource hungry

 

Did not play a decisive role in the battle

 

Bombers are not as popular draw as fighters for many customers

 

cuts down plane set of Navy aircraft or fighters if "5 aircraft" per side is continued

 

PROS 

 

4 engine bombers already proven and flyable in BoS/RoF game engine with Ilya Muromets

 

New AI limits and DX11/64 bit engine changes will make high resource in game less of an issue for 4/multi engine bomber

 

There were 15+? B-17E present at midway and carried out multiple direct attacks on the main carriers even if they did not hit any, one even strafing  carrier Hiryu, would it be Midway without them?

 

B-17 is highly popular Iconic aircraft and not done at this level of fidelity before/or for a long time, would be great for the "Brand" awareness and publicity and drive sales to wider market

 

Flying with an all human crew could be an awesome fun experience ( :) )  

 

Will fit into later modules/mod maps along with P-40, P-39, A20 and Spit

 

 

 

 

Although not considered today as one of the heroes of midway, it was at the time very much considered so, taking credit for two carriers in all the newspaper headlines of the day, "Army Fliers Blasted Two Fleets off Midway." these claims were never publicly disputed/resolved until much much later... which lead to a certain resentment by the Navy, 

 

So would trying to bomb the Carrier fleet in a B-17 and land back on Midway island be an interesting proposition?

 

or more to the point would it be good for the series and worth the probable considerable effort?

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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=WH=PangolinWranglin

 

 

probable considerable effort?

This. A 4 engine, fully crewed bomber would be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to model. If I remember correctly, the devs said that they were not planned for any of the foreseeable future. 

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Is a B-17E needed for Battle of midway?

 

No. Even if it was technically possible (which is doubtful, given the CPU load multiple gunners etc entail - the number of engines isn't really the issue), it would be a huge misapplication of resources. The developers need to concentrate on core aircraft, and on getting carrier operations right. If the time comes when heavy bombers are a practical proposition, it makes much more sense to use them on a map where they played a significant role. 

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Wildcat, Buffalo, Dauntless, Devastator, Catalina.... that would be my choice.

 

Mmmm, Catalina. Now that's something I would like to see at some point. And it looks like a more practical proposition, given what the developers did with this beauty in RoF:

 

2012_12_26__7_18_29_zps1e4b8f1c.png

 

2012_12_25__16_45_11_zps8c24a7bc.png

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I am not certain, but how many gun positions in B-17E compared to He-111H-16, is it not about the same?...just food for thought  :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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B-17G-Cutaway.png

It's quite a lot. And with current gunner skills it would be a madness to go after one ...

 

Pretty sure the B-17E in the Pacific had five or six, same number of positions as He111H-16, not as well protected as later G model used in Europe

 

post-6177-0-44611200-1476311652_thumb.jpg

 

Good book on the subject is

 

Fortress Against The Sun: The B-17 in The Pacific

 

By Gene E. Salecker

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot
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=362nd_FS=Hiromachi

It's not only about the numbers. Most of those turrets are electrically operated and would require developing whole systems (in any case there should also be added in a damage model option to disable the turret in case of damage). Not to mention that B-17 is just a lot more complicated to operate. And I really dont find that much purpose for them. Strategic bombers dont really work well against single targets that move. 

In regard to sources, another good one is Ken’s Men Against the Empire.

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A B-26 would be fun to go on torpedo runs - that would probably be a better plane to operate/model for Midway. I would ultimately love having a B-17 at some point, but I think it would be too hard to implement properly in Midway for the reasons already stated above. Probably in the future they will have a western Europe addition that could operate B-17's more appropriately (but that wouldn't be for 6-10 years at the earliest I would imagine and that's being generous).

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I would not mind either PBY, B-26, or B-17 all have a legit place and each would be fun/interesting

 

The electric operated mid upper turret was the same as used in B-26 and some A-20 models? other than new systems and the size of the model I don't see huge issues implementing B-17E Pacific model spec, it certainly has more centrefold appeal for publicity , and dev time is always in the bank for an F (MTO) and G (ETO) model later 

 

Interesting to see peoples thoughts, Midway is long in the future and speculation is cheap and harmless  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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=362nd_FS=Hiromachi

 

 

harmless

Unless it happens on Wall Street ^^ 

 

I just dont know if B-17 is all that important, particularly for Midway. And for later events B-24 would be more appropriate. 

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II/JG17_HerrMurf

B-17's were used at Midway but proved completely unsuitable in it's utilization. Considering the resources required to build it in the sim you could build three or four of the other aircraft which had an actual impact on the battle.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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I think I'd much rather have a Catalina.  There were over thirty deployed around Midway during the battle and - I might have dreamt this bit - didn't one of them actually sink a Japanese freighter?

 

 As Andy has pointed out above; the devs have already created an aircraft in RoF which is strikingly similar and would be another way to enjoy the Digital Nature engine's water technology.

 

The Flying Fortress?  Yeah, it would be a show-stopper but also perhaps an expensive white elephant?   Outside of Midway, where could you use it?

Did the Soviets have PBYs operating on the Black Sea during the Kuban campaign?

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How is the seaplane's flight model in RoF (I don't have it)

 

Good enough to make me feel nauseous when wallowing in a swell. :unsure: 

 

Seriously though, I'd say 'pretty good', though since I've never flown in a seaplane or flying boat, I'm no expert. It certainly seems plausible enough, in that the planes float properly when bobbing around, and give a fairly good impression of 'getting up on the step' as they accelerate. And given the attention the developers have been paying to ground handling in BoS/BoM, I'm sure they would make a good job of a PBY or an A6M2-N on the water. I suspect the hardest part may have been modelling the water itself, and hopefully that would transfer across without too much extra work. 

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Do we need or would this aircraft be a good addition to the plane set for Midway?

 

or would it be a potential waste of resources

 

No

Yes

 

[/thread]

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I would love to have a B-17, but I don't see that happening any time soon.  I think we could do more with the initial Midway planes being F4F; SBD; TBD; TBF; and x as the TBD would cover Midway and earlier and the TBF would cover Midway (in limited numbers, if at all...server choice) and the short term after Midway.  I.E. Guadalcanal, etc.  Then all we would need is the maps for each region.

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B-17's were used at Midway but proved completely unsuitable in it's utilization. Considering the resources required to build it in the sim you could build three or four of the other aircraft which had an actual impact on the battle.

 

True A B-17 is big, but to play devil's advocate, does that make the FM any more complicated than another smaller aircraft?

 

also the engines are partly covered by Brewster F2A or Dauntless also using the R1820 although a different Mk, if you have made 1 does it take any more time for the other 3..? and four engine system already exists in principle in the game.

 

I still agree that it is a lot of work, but not as impossible as some may think, the Kudos for having it in would be worth it for exposure of the series and future development..a lot of people have been waiting for this type of aircraft which has a lot of easily accessed info and many examples still flying

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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[ASOR]Pharoah

I'd pay for this as a standalone a/c. If 1C wants to go anywhere near the ETO, they will eventually need a B17 or a B24 for fighters to escort/attack. I reckon there will be a lot more interest than say the JU52 (which really is just an unarmed cargo plane...good luck trying to survive online with that thing). Don't forget, the B17 operated in pretty much every theatre I believe.

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II/JG17_HerrMurf

It's not the FM's, it's the systems and most importantly the crew stations and AI scripts. I want heavies as much as the next guy and I hope the game supports them at some point. The Devs have stated several times, however, the current game engine is not ideal for them. They are not necessary for our first foray into the Pacific. By the time we get to Okinawa B-24's and B-29's may be.

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6./ZG26_5tuka

Doubt it will ever be part of a standard package given not only the technical difficulty to implement it but also the fact it's streching the workload quite above previous aircraft, thus requires a higher pricetag. As a single module it would make more sense and allow for a more legitimated price tag.

 

As for Midway, no, it wouldn't really add a lot to the theatre since it was a battle of fighters and attack aircraft. My preferrence for it still lies with the Caty, not because it will be particularily usefull (although it could carry 2 1t torpedoes) but because it's going to be a lot of fun and slower than a Ju-52.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
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The only good thing I see in getting a B-17 for the Battle of Midway is that we already have several German aircraft to shoot them down properly. For the scenario itself, it imho is completely useless.

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curiousGamblerr

Man I'm sitting here thinking I'd probably pay $40-50 for a B-17, 24 or 29 if they did the crew half decently. Will be years no doubt, but hopefully eventually.

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The only good thing I see in getting a B-17 for the Battle of Midway is that we already have several German aircraft to shoot them down properly. For the scenario itself, it imho is completely useless.

 

If I was sitting in the Dev's seat, aside from the AI obstacle because of all the 'brains' and it's relative uselessness historical insignificance in the theater in question,

 the other reason I'd steer clear of it in the foreseeable future is precisely what you just said.

There would be no end to the crying out for Mustangs, Jugs, the Dora and a Western Front map NOW on the grounds of "We already have the B-17!!!...WHAAAAAaaaaa!!!"

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For BoMw (or any other BoX) maybe not on release, but as a Collector plane even for a heftier price tag... i would gladly dish out 60USD for a properly modelled and simulated B17 (any model of it) :)

 

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True the Dev's have said they have no interest in heavies, but this was mainly due the difficulty in portraying the large formations in ETO needed for an authentic simulation, and the amount of work needed for a correct map to use them, there were even many missions in Pacific where B-17 did good work, actually managing  to damage 3 cruisers amongst other targets (not at Midway though)

 

In Midway/Pacific you have a historical situation where they were used in small formations..about 9, and a legit map and targets already made.

 

There IS a complicated electric turret, but this is the same as the B-26, and the actual amount of gunner stations on the Pacific E model (pic above) is no more than an He-111H16

 

The cockpit in many ways is no more complicated than Ju-52

 

post-6177-0-83960100-1476342425_thumb.jpg

 

I would enjoy the Catalina but in reality reconnaissance missions at incredibly slow speed with poor defensive capability over Ocean will be even more niche than JU-52 low level cargo missions, after the initial fun of water landings has passed it will in all intents be little used by many, I feel that generally the B-17 with more defence and offensive capability would be more longer term fun/popular, especially with a human crew

 

True it would cut down on the needed historical plane set and because of this is unlikely to be included

 

But I think a well done B-17 AND Carriers would be a huge selling point (and sales are what are needed) for US market

 

The first real offensive strike use of B-17 was quite a big event even if historically not so spectacular :) 

 

Anyway the idea does not seem very popular, but many of the reasons do not seem so insurmountable, but maybe in reality they are...as said getting Carriers correct is number 1 priority 

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

 

 

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It's not the FM's, it's the systems and most importantly the crew stations and AI scripts. I want heavies as much as the next guy and I hope the game supports them at some point. The Devs have stated several times, however, the current game engine is not ideal for them. They are not necessary for our first foray into the Pacific. By the time we get to Okinawa B-24's and B-29's may be.

 

It's a bit of a worry.  One wonders where it will all lead. 

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Ojisan_Mjoelner

B-26 was also there but it was used as a torpedo bomber. That is a very undermodeled aircraft.

 

Agree, and it was quite important as well, the torpedo armed B-26 Marauders dragged some of the fighter attention to the deck.

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=362nd_FS=Hiromachi

B-26 was a good machine but required a lot more skill to handle than comparable designs. If I'm not mistaken it was B-26 that was nicknamed "Widow-maker".

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This was the case with earlier versions, by Block 10 a larger wing, ailerons and tail, along with very improved training turned that situation around, think the four at Midway were already Block 40.

 

Even so it required careful attention to airspeed and single engine handling, however by mid war it was very successful and correct training had turned the reputation around

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

Edited by Dakpilot
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