Does the FW190 FM need reevaluation?

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Yes, I have read about that as well when it comes to the Fw-190 but this tightening up occurs before stall as far as I have understood so as I understand if you roll over into a turn and initially pull the stick back to get into the turn, after that you need to keep a forward pressure on the stick to avoid the plane tightening up the turn by itself. Now as I understood it all of this occurs in the normal flying regime i.e. prior to stall. The superstall phenomena I was talking about occurs after you have stalled, so in case you no longer have attached flow over the wings.

 

Got it, thanks

[Crump]

 

 

Yes, I have read about that as well when it comes to the Fw-190 but this tightening up occurs before stall as far as I have understood so as I understand if you roll over into a turn and initially pull the stick back to get into the turn, after that you need to keep a forward pressure on the stick to avoid the plane tightening up the turn by itself. Now as I understood it all of this occurs in the normal flying regime i.e. prior to stall.  

 

That is Longitudinal instability......  

 

Yes it occurs in the FW-190A at certain CG locations and the higher in altitude, the more pronounced the instability!

 

If that is modeled, then the basic characteristic is correct.

 

Ohhhhhh....NOOOOOO WAYYYYY!!!  Call out the forum police!!  Let's form a union and put out all kinds of disinformation because...shock of all shocks....

 

THE _______________ <insert favorite airplane> CANNOT BE UNSTABLE!!

 

I vote NzTyphoon as the defacto leader of the  "MY AIRPLANE CANNOT BE UNSTABLE!!" club.... 

MY AIRPLANE CANNOT BE UNSTABLE!!

If you know how to read them....

 

It is very easy to see the FW-190A is nearly perfect in its longitudinal stability and control characteristics at low altitude but becomes unstable the higher the density altitude one goes....

 

 

 

A large part of the reason why it was not a great high altitude dogfighter.

No FW-190 ever experienced a super-stall either.  It does not have the basic design features required to enter a "super-stall" by the aerodynamic definition.

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

So that must have changed with the in-line engine and adding some length to the rear fuselage in the D9 and Ta-152 since they were made for high altitude fighting.

[Crump]

Super stall is a delta wing or T-tail phenomenon.

So that must have changed with the in-line engine and adding some length to the rear fuselage in the D9 and Ta-152 since they were made for high altitude fighting.

 

Yep...

 

Astute observation Goblin!! 

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

[Holtzauge]

Got it, thanks

[Edited]

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bearcat

[Crump]

 

 

they are totally irrelevant to this issue since they show a different phenomena, namely the effects of speed on longitudinal trim and Mach effects

 

Reallly?  They teach you this in school?

 

So mach is not a measurement of airspeed and we have no way to relate that to anything else because it must occur in another universe kind of like "Warp Speed"..... our airplane is traveling inside a "mach bubble"!!

 

Besides the fact Focke Wulf already converted the conditions to Indicated Airspeed....evidenced by the suspicious scale labeled, "Indicated Airspeed".

[Crump]

To see the stability characteristics...you need exactly the information posted above in the Mtt report.  

 

You can measure at one end or the other of the control system....The stick or the elevator.....

 

Either will give you a good plot of the stability characteristics.

[Crump]

 

 

 

5_LongitudinalStatic#2BA158.pdf

 

[Edited]

 

If you cannot post without being condescending and combative then you will not be posting here at all. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Bearcat

[JG13_opcode]

It's exactly the opposite.

 

And btw, pretending the FW has a crazy unrecoverable "superstall " then fabricate ingame "proof" to make it look real, in the end, is attempting to spread false information, and that is a bannable offense...

That's not what has happened. You are very obviously misrepresenting what has gone on in this thread.

 

[Edited] 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Bearcat
Politics Personal

[Crump]

@@JG13_opcode

 

That is quotable, LOL! 

[Turban]

That's not what has happened. You are very obviously misrepresenting what has gone on in this thread.

 

You are the Donald Trump of this community. You live in a post-truth world where you just carry on as if the evidence is not right there in front of you, while insulting and belittling people who know more than you.

 

What are you talking about ? The whole "super stall" joke ? It is exactly what happened. They made stuff up. Gave a picture and a cut track hoping people would buy it. Some did. Apparently you did at least.

 

I would LOVE to see the original track. Complete original track.

 

And by the way, just watch it. It's all there. The constant pitch up input. The stabilizer at 100% pitch up.

 

So tell me. Where am I wrong?

 

Tell me ??

 

Don't dodge this question, answer it !

 

Don't start making things personal btw .

Edited September 18, 2016 by Turban

[Irgendjemand]

Just a little reminder: 

 

PLEASE DONT GET THE THREAD LOCKED!

 

PLEASE DONT GET THE THREAD LOCKED!

 

PLEASE DONT GET THE THREAD LOCKED!

 

PLEASE DONT GET THE THREAD LOCKED!

 

Thanks!

[Caudron431]

Unlocks, stripping RPG elements out of SP campaign, no mods. There are reasons why the take up of BoS/BoM has been poor enough to require a change of direction, and I believe that people leaving the game because of these issues is a fact. edit - but in terms of graphics, maps, and most importantly feeling of flight, they are doing a good job.

 

Interesting view.

 

We don't know why the team stripped their new game from all the things that contributed to their success. But knowing their achievements in the past IL2, ROF, i think it is possible that they chose this path for financial reasons and not because they believed in it.  It could have been a way to gain the bankers confidence for the initial financial support, to show investors something that looked like a finished game, while they themselves (and ourselves) knew it wasn't. The change of direction could be the sign that they are actually getting more independant, and that they believe that thanks to our support they can now make the sim the way they like without having to convince investors? Maybe because of that they are so anxious about us preordering the next products. Fact is we can't know for sure what's happening in these higher spheres...

 

 

 

Why not? If people feel strongly about it, who is to say that they should not express themselves in this way? So you do not like it - tough luck. There are plenty of things in this game and community that I expect all of us dislike: that is the nature of a community, we all have to put up with some things we do not like in order to get the bits we do like.

 

I think a possible way to achieve progress on the Fw190A3 case would be to ask some neutral guy or moderator on the Russian boards to ask the developpers if they would agree to spend time checking the data send? After all modification were made to this particular FM. So in theory devs are not considering it an impossible thing.

 

 

 

Do you think the developers were blackmailing when they said that without better Steam reviews the title was in danger of folding? Or when Jason recently said that he needed everyone to get on board with BoK and the collector planes to keep the series alive? I do not (despite my "shoot the dog" picture, which was in case you had missed it, a joke!) They are simply stating the facts: collective actions have collective consequences. Do you really think I am so stupid that I think that my own personal decision on buying anything swings any developer decision? Actually, given your misrepresentation of what I had said throughout, perhaps you do.

 

I think they were genuinely worried they could fail despite all the work they did, and also because many people were somehow frustrated not to see the game evolve the way they desired. I guess the most important thing for them was first to comply with the banks desires and then try to find enough room to make us happy, and maybe this is the hardest thing to do, we are just like the last dinosaurs, nobody else is playing games like we simmers do, and investors they don't believe in us. But just like anyone else, i don't know for sure. We should look at what we have and not focus too much on disatifiying details until the Sim is strong enough. Maybe it is now (read above)

 

That said, our personal decisions can be decisive in that we can, by our attitude and tone and also by Your popularity, create a favorable environment when where there is a doubt about a detail in game,  it doesn't take such huge dramatical proportions that some start talking about simmers leaving the game. And btw that you are not stupid, TY but i figured that, i needed no help.

 

 

 

They will do all of that as long as they are enjoying themselves. If they are not, they have every right to say so and why, preferably without being accused of bad faith or blackmailing.

 

Agree, they have every right to say that they are not enjoying themselves and why, but what if they are not only saying that? What is the real purpose of adding remarks about people possibly leaving and on the viability of the mere product then. To me it doesn't  conclude logically the first proposition, it looks just like a false dilemma, a fallacy.

 

What could be the meaning of such a construction (make a detail something more important than the whole thing?) ? What could be it's purpose (Force the developpers to change things under pressure rather than to change things in the quietness of reason?) ? What effect could it create in people's mind? (fear of failure and bankrupcy in the mind of the developpers, helping the agenda (Because when methods like these are used to me even a legitimate questionning becomes a mere agenda.), and perhaps risks of bandwagoning and using of the same methods in the future for illegitimate reasons since it worked the first time?) ?

 

 

 

 

 

My first instinct is to tell you that my motivations for posting are none of your business, but... The reason I bother with these posts - apart from the pure mental exercise - is because it bothers me when people post some issue or concern and then are barraged with posts saying, in effect, not that someone has a different view, but that the original poster should not be saying that in the first place. Many forums get like that sometimes, CFS forums are worse than average, but this forum has been consistently the worst I can recall - at least since the old Pilots' Cocktail Lounge, which was pure anarchy. btw, if you really want someone to stay in a community accusing them of blackmailing, faint-heartedness and bad faith is a strange way of showing it. You might want to go away and look up "ad-hominem fallacy" as well.

 

With many threads locked, with normally nice people going too far against the devs and that were banned for such a long period of time, there's a lot of pressure and anger now. The fact that the Fw190A is a collector plane also contributed to more frustration, many probably would no have buy it in this state. Criticising it's FM like we see on these boards it's also making 1CGS lose money after all.

 

You can follow your instinct, it is sound to do that! (Notice that i did not ask anything about your motivations, so not only is it none of my business, but what is more is that i don't really have interest in them in this discussion, you seem to like this game, it is enough for me). Anyway ad hominem (unlike argumentum ad populum) can certainly be a valid form in argumenting, it is certainly not always fallacious as you seem to believe, can't see the problem with it here?, anyway saying everyone else is in fallacy (for whatever reasons you seem to like this word will not help friendly understanding either, even if i recognize i also have my responsibility in this.

 

At least i understand you better since this discussion.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Yak9Micha

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Honestly, I think BOS/BOM was successful DESPITE all of those gamey features. We are lucky all of the sim features, maps and aircraft, at the core were overwhelmingly well done AND PRODUCES BY A SKILLED TEAM. I'm not overly concerned about at who's direction they were implemented but I am delighted at the proposed game improvements and decision to move away from the 'gamey' elements. This team is talented and the sim moving forward with a new direction and energy can only be a good thing.

Edited September 18, 2016 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Crump]

Honestly, I think the BOS/BOM was successful DESPITE all of those gamey features. We are lucky all of the sim features, maps and aircraft, at the core were overwhelmingly well done AND PRODUCES BY A SKILLED TEAM. I'm not overly concerned about at who's direction they were implemented but I am delighted at the proposed game improvements and decision to move away from the 'gamey' elements. This team is talented and the sim moving forward with a new direction and energy can only be a good thing.

 

I was gifted a copy of the game.  It has some really nice features.  Some things are not so good.  

 

Hopefully the devs will listen and the sim will grow.

[unreasonable]

I was gifted a copy of the game.  It has some really nice features.  Some things are not so good.  

 

Hopefully the devs will listen and the sim will grow.

 

I thought you said that you have given that copy away to someone who had recently lost their mother? Perhaps another gift then. Glad that you actually have a copy now.

 

 

At least i understand you better since this discussion.

 

And I you. Discussion is good.   

[Crump]

 

 

thought you said that you have given that copy away to someone who had recently lost their mother? Perhaps another gift then. Glad that you actually have a copy now.

 

I was gifted another one....different copy. 

[LukeFF]

 

 

Turban is like a climate-change denier or a conspiracy theorist.

 

Keep the comments like that out of this topic.  

[NZTyphoon]

I vote NzTyphoon as the defacto leader of the  "MY AIRPLANE CANNOT BE UNSTABLE!!" club.... 

[Edited]

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bearcat

[Bearcat]

DONE. I am sure that any information needed can be gleaned from any of the other FW-190 threads that have also been locked thanks to the usual folks ...................