Bad feeling about russian 20mm.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Not a flame just a bad feeling in the last online sorties.

Did they changed somenthing in the last updates for the russian 20mm or it's only a placebo effect, a negative personal feeling? It does seem to me that the russian 20mm are now a sort of demolition weapons "one shoot, one kill", as for 109 DM (but not only) that are broken immediately as soon as they taken hits.

My bad feeling (negative) is that somenthing could have been changed for balancing purpose, but probaly in an exaggerated way.

 

What you guys feel? I need to know please.

Edited August 22, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[150GCT_Veltro]

I feel that you are highly biased. Take a deep breath and re-evaluate your thoughts before posting. When something goes wrong, looking for someone to blame is the easiest thing to do. What I would suggest is that instead of whining and accusing the devs of bias, you would watch you flight tracks after you get shot down and try to see where YOU did a mistake. IF you want to improve as a pilot the first thing you need to do is to get rid of that attitude.

 

Yes, off course.

 

I did forget the other problem...the "laser" one that vanified any your attempts to escape in diving from a Yak attack with FW-190: one shoot and your plane is just unflyable.

[Brano]

Bullets are faster than planes 

[El_Babuino]

What you shall do everytime than you have "bad feelings"

1) Go to singleplayer mission(cuz offten in MP hits registred incorrect).

2) Get subject of your "badfeelings" (exaple, 20mm) and test it. In your case test it on Bf109. I think 20-30 shotdowned planes will be enough. 

3)  Next switch plane. And  test again.

 

Most of "bad feelings" disappear

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yes, off course.

 

I did forget the other problem...the "laser" one that vanified any your attempts to escape in diving from a Yak attack with FW-190: one shoot and your plane is just unflyable.

Never happend to me but i was sniped out from Laags bigger cannons. But only feew VVS are capable to reliable do this.

[9./JG27golani79]

I feel that you are highly biased. Take a deep breath and re-evaluate your thoughts before posting. When something goes wrong, looking for someone to blame is the easiest thing to do. What I would suggest is that instead of whining and accusing the devs of bias, you would watch you flight tracks after you get shot down and try to see where YOU made a mistake. IF you want to improve as a pilot the first thing you need to do is to get rid of that attitude.

 

Whats wrong with asking?

He even said that it could just be a placebo effect on his side and nowhere did he say that something is definitely wrong.

 

Maybe you should stop telling other people to stop whining and accusing when in fact they dont ...

[El_Babuino]

 mazaKi, stop teach them, or they are really learn how   Lets follow teaching way of chinese Kung fu masters - without any explanations

[9./JG27golani79]

 mazaKi, stop teach them, or they are really learn how   Lets follow teaching way of chinese Kung fu masters - without any explanations

 

Nothing wrong with giving tips - but telling other people that they are only whining and a bunch of noobs helps nobody.

 

I don´t get it - why does it always have to be this way?

If anything is mentioned / asked regarding weapons, FMs etc. the "other" side always accuses the other of whining.

 

Shouldn´t we just help each other out?

 

But I guess no point in trying to change this overall attitude cause I think it wont change ...

[Aap]

 

 

If someone is going to challenge the fm and dm, they need to back up their claims with data and evidence. If they are not going to do so, thy are just arguing out of emotions.

 

 

So where do you see Veltro "challenging" FM or DM or even claiming anything that needs evidence? He openly says that has a feeling that something has changed and asks how others feel. No need to become so hostile and accuse him of being "highly biased", " looking for someone to blame", "whining and accusing the devs" when nowhere in his post has Veltro done any of that.

[150GCT_Veltro]

We've been through this dozen of times already. So if you feel that something has changed (which patch notes did not indicate at all) take your buddy for a spin Veltro, test it and record. Than you can draw conclusions when you have some solid evidence. There is no way around it.  

 

I have tested a lot in the last days after too many complains from some of my guys. I don't have flew BoS for several months because of RL problems, so my question. Probably flying on the dog sever i've simple taken more shoots than before. I've never really complained about BoS if not for the FW but it's better don't name it at all. We are talking about somenthing different now.

 

I've seen several times some 109 been destroyed with a few shoot (if not one only) from very high distance, with the reaction you can imagine from my team mate.Tracks i think doesn't help in this way, if not to confirm that there is something strange with russian 20mm.

 

However, thank to reply.

 

Been here from the beginning with RoF (2009), i just ask Jason to check if something has been forced by the team for balancing purpose. It woul be fine for me, but there is a border line even for the Russian Front.

Edited August 22, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[216th_Jordan]

I always had the feeling that the 20mm soviet gun was a pile of cr*p.

[Turban]

I don't know. Flying the Mig 3, I put 15X 20mm rounds (saw the hits and they registered on server's stats)  in a 109 and it was still flying. 

 

You need to hit important parts to have good effects.

Definitely not weapons of mass destruction.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Because it is if compared to MG 151 it is: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15281-german-20mm/?p=244493

This is an old post but since not much has changed with weapons in game since then, more that damage models did, it still should be valid. And explosive charge is really low in Shvak HE rounds. 

 

That 109 goes in a few shots is not surprising. It wasn't known for its durability or high levels of pilot protection. Some time ago we had more delicate damage models and then 109 wings were flying any time you looked at them, since then things got more robust. 

[9./JG27golani79]

If you are going to challenge the fm and dm, you need to back up your claims with data and evidence.

 

If someone is asking a hypothetical question based on a feeling and is already saying that it might be a placebo effect on his side then I don´t really see this person challenging / questioning the integrity of the FM / DM

I just see a question.

Edited August 22, 2016 by 9./JG27golani79

[150GCT_Veltro]

I don't know. Flying the Mig 3, I put 15X 20mm rounds (saw the hits and they registered on server's stats)  in a 109 and it was still flying. 

 

You need to hit important parts to have good effects.

 

Definitely not weapons of mass destruction.

 

This has been also my though (the aim problem), always, but now i've some doubts..... May be is just only the "laser problem", the straight way to shoot of the russian 20mm.

Edited August 22, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Freycinet]

I never called anyone a noob. I just like brutal honesty.

Accusing Veltro of "whining" in his first post has nothing to do with honesty. Rather it is overly aggressive and completely uncalled for. I don't think you would talk to him like that face to face, so try to dial down the fury in your forum posting as well. This is supposed to be a friendly place for flight sim fans to meet.

[sinned]

This is supposed to be a friendly place for flight sim fans to meet.

I agree. In my view, the original post was not accusational to anyone directly, but rather cautiously asking people's feedback. I understand there may be time for a firm rebuttal, but I think we can bring more friendly participation.

[Aap]

 

 

I don't think being brutally honest equals to being hostile. We have seen countless of topics like these insinuating that there is some kind of bias. Sometimes directly accusing the devs of bias. The way we need to counter claims like these is to demand for evidence and just let people know how absurd some of these claims are.

 

 

So you are saying that you are "brutally honest", when you accuse Veltro of whining, accusing the devs, having a bias etc in his first post? You might want to reread his post.

And what kind of absurd claims are you talking about? Veltro is talking about his feelings and asks about other people's feelings and opinions. 

You are just brutally hostile, not honest.

[PeterZvan]

My feeling is that the 20mm ShvaK is weak and 23mm is very powerfull.

Many times its the 23mm that do the annoying damage from the long distance.

Also 12,7mm is very effective -> I acctually prefer it to the 20mm.

 

Deffinitly MgFF 20mm is more effective than the 20mm Shvak.

The 20mm Shvak many time has less tracers which perhaps make the effectivnes seem higher than it acctually is (one dosent see the bullets coming in).

 

In my opinion its the 23mm which is the most suspect as its many times a 2 or 3 shot kill if one is a good shot - and with the 23mm the accuracy is great as well.

Certanly it is not logical why the 20mm was preffered on the russian fighters if the 23mm was so much more effective.

[KoN_]

I feel that you are highly biased. Take a deep breath and re-evaluate your thoughts before posting. When something goes wrong, looking for someone to blame is the easiest thing to do. What I would suggest is that instead of whining and accusing the devs of bias, you would watch you flight tracks after you get shot down and try to see where YOU made a mistake. IF you want to improve as a pilot the first thing you need to do is to get rid of that attitude.

I love how you people come on here and tell people how too fly and insult their flying skills or in fact insult them , i think mazaKi you should change your attitude , i see nothing wrong with his post and its clear English is not his native.  

 

You should go in to the dog fight server and see some of the scores , you will find VVs is top way top with some very very high scores . So is it pilot skills or just that the VVs weapons are stronger .

Or maybe the LW air frames are weaker . Or maybe the LW pilots are unskilled . We can argue all day ..!!

 

But i am not moaning or whining here `but telling some one that you have no knowledge of  too change his pilots skills and attitude is unhelpful and negative . 

 

Months ago i put a post up asking why was I instantly killed in my 190 nearly 90% of the time when six and I asked about the rear protection of the 190 and was it working  AND  again the same old posts came out  , i was told to change my pilot skills and so on . The same old boring stuff yawn . !!!

 

Well it  turned out that the A.P. cannon round was over powered for the VVs  and it was going to get changed in the next patch . So the OP might have a point in his statement .

 

I really want too continue flying this `NEW game/Sim `things look good for the future now with Jason in the front line `  but you kids need to change your attitudes and stop the insults if you want this too succeeded and pull in the crowds  . 

Edited August 22, 2016 by II./JG77_Con

[LeLv8_Otto]

My feeling is that the 20mm ShvaK is weak and 23mm is very powerfull.

Many times its the 23mm that do the annoying damage from the long distance.

Also 12,7mm is very effective -> I acctually prefer it to the 20mm.

 

Deffinitly MgFF 20mm is more effective than the 20mm Shvak.

The 20mm Shvak many time has less tracers which perhaps make the effectivnes seem higher than it acctually is (one dosent see the bullets coming in).

 

In my opinion its the 23mm which is the most suspect as its many times a 2 or 3 shot kill if one is a good shot - and with the 23mm the accuracy is great as well.

Certanly it is not logical why the 20mm was preffered on the russian fighters if the 23mm was so much more effective.

 

I agree totally with Peter. It is very easy to test in quickmission like someone suggested. Put e.g. 4 x HE111 as targets and do attack pass from behind with 109,  Lagg (both Shvak & Vya 23mm) and P40. You will shortly notice the order of gun effectivenes.

[Brano]

VYa 23mm is cathegory of its own. It was not an upscale from HMG like MG151/20 or ShVAK. Its projectile used potential of full scale catridge (23x152mm) comparing to rather small 20x99mm of ShVAK or 20x82mm of MG151/20 (both cartridges where shortened comparing to their HMG predecessors = 12.7x108mm and 15x96mm respectivly)

VYa-23 was primarly developed for IL-2 sturmovik. It wasnt used much on figters due to its weight (almost 30kg heavier then ShVAK) and also due its unavailability = priority for sturmoviks.

Its implementation in game for LaGG-3 series 29 is historicly a bit questionable = there were some aircrafts in 8th series equipped with VYa-23 according V.B.Shavrov book "History of soviet aircraft design 1938-50". It is rather old publication and there might be more recent data on this topic.That would require more research to be done.

[ShamrockOneFive]

My feeling is that the 20mm ShvaK is weak and 23mm is very powerfull.

Many times its the 23mm that do the annoying damage from the long distance.

Also 12,7mm is very effective -> I acctually prefer it to the 20mm.

 

Deffinitly MgFF 20mm is more effective than the 20mm Shvak.

The 20mm Shvak many time has less tracers which perhaps make the effectivnes seem higher than it acctually is (one dosent see the bullets coming in).

 

In my opinion its the 23mm which is the most suspect as its many times a 2 or 3 shot kill if one is a good shot - and with the 23mm the accuracy is great as well.

Certanly it is not logical why the 20mm was preffered on the russian fighters if the 23mm was so much more effective.

 

The VYa 23mm is quite a bit more powerful than the ShVAK 20mm.

 

A little comparison:

ShVAK

Cartridge: 20x99R

Muzzle Velocity: 750 m/s

Proj Weight: 95g

ROF: 800 rpm

 

VYa

Cartridge: 23x152B

Muzzle Velocity: 880 m/s

Proj Weight: 200g

ROF: 550 rpm

 

Although firing at a slower rate, the VYa 23mm cartridge is significantly larger and heavier (more than twice as heavy) than the ShVAK's and its muzzle velocity is quite a bit higher as well. It also has double the explosive power. Fire rate is lacking but the hitting power greatly offsets that.

 

The reason I've been able to find about the 23mm not being fitted more often was because of recoil and vibration. The recoil was such that the recoil could cause damage to the engine and nearby components over time. The 23mm installation on the LaGG-3 was more of a operational test than anything. Thus regular operational use was largely restricted to the IL-2 only with its wing installation being far from sensitive components.

 

Make no mistake... the VYa is a monster.

 

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

[El_Babuino]

Make no mistake... the VYa is a monster.

Reloading a hive of "small" bees  vzik-vzik-vzik

Edited August 22, 2016 by ROSS_El_Babuino

[Brano]

Well,IMO due to "unlocks" philosophy devs tried to pack some a/c in the game with whatever experimental armament there was. Such as Sh-37mm canon.

LaGG-3:3pcs built in some early series

Il-2: 9pcs built

[ShamrockOneFive]

Reloading a hive of "small" bees  vzik-vzik-vzik

12440.jpg

 

Yes! :D

 

Well,IMO due to "unlocks" philosophy devs tried to pack some a/c in the game with whatever experimental armament there was. Such as Sh-37mm canon.

LaGG-3:3pcs built in some early series

Il-2: 9pcs built

 

These modifications are very cool to have but its good to understand them historically. Only a few versions of each as you say. Still, I found it fascinating that these operational prototypes would essentially be tested on the front. The Sh-37mm was actually used at Stalingrad interestingly enough. 

 

"In September-October 1942, these planes were utilized during the Battle of Stalingrad by the 291 IAP with good success, shooting down 13 enemy bombers; 7 K-37 were lost in combat on that occasion. During their use, they were escorted by Yak fighters. A.Ootin, commander of the 220 Fighter Air Division (IAD) to which the 291 IAP was assigned, was very satisfied with these planes, and wrote that one or two hits in any part of an enemy plane were sufficient to shot it down. "

 

More here: http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lagg3/lagg3-37/lagg3-37.htm

[9./JG27golani79]

Why are you even trying.

 

 

Talking about the OP on which you initially answered - no need to quote things which were posted afterwards ...

 

I think you might just read too much into the OP - but you are right. Why am I even trying to explain ...

Edited August 22, 2016 by 9./JG27golani79

[Han]

Bullets are faster than planes 

 

Not allways:

http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html

[Brano]

Yes,they were undergoing frontline testing.It was standard procedure for weapons evaluation. Question is,how much of those can be transferred to common MP dogfight servers (where all the complaints come from). Usually such events should represent standard equipment. Ofcourse experimental weapons could be part of an interesting SP minicampaign 

Not allways:

http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html

You got me   Nice story 

[unreasonable]

Not allways:

http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html

 

Interesting... but if he had flown along the same trajectory as the shells instead of below it would he have caught them up?

[Irgendjemand]

Yes, off course.

 

I did forget the other problem...the "laser" one that vanified any your attempts to escape in diving from a Yak attack with FW-190: one shoot and your plane is just unflyable.

my subjective impression also is that as soon as you take damage in a german plane - be it yet so small - the performance degrades drastically.

[ShamrockOneFive]

my subjective impression also is that as soon as you take damage in a german plane - be it yet so small - the performance degrades drastically.

 

I feel the same way in a Russian plane

[LukeFF]

 

 

That 109 goes in a few shots is not surprising. It wasn't known for its durability or high levels of pilot protection.

 

Beat me to it.  

[=AD=B777R]

As a VVS pilot only (in that game) I can honestly say two things...

23 mm is a gun of dream. Why? - see tech details above, it's well explained. An it looks realistic, imho.

20 mm ShVAK - is far less effective. Sometimes opponent can literally "eat" up to 15-20 rounds of it without any tragical consequences. Especially if it is Fw190. And when I say 15-20 rounds, I mean hits. Can't say my shooting is worst ever or best ever, my average gunstat is around 10%.

Of course, ometimes you can shotdown enemy with 2-5 hits, but it has to be direct hits in engine/pilot/force constructuon elements.

 

And one more thing ©

If you flying German fighter and your opponent has fire solution - it means you already did something wrong.

 

P.S.: and once more about 23mm. Great firepower. But it also has negative effects. 1 - bigger weight. And more important it changes slightly center of masses. So LaGG (even with 20 - not the easyest plane to fly) behavior became... let's say more tricky.

Edited August 22, 2016 by =AD=B777R

[JtD]

You can't ask a question without being insulted. Disgusting.

[Irgendjemand]

As a VVS pilot only (in that game) I can honestly say two things...

23 mm is a gun of dream. Why? - see tech details above, it's well explained. An it looks realistic, imho.

20 mm ShVAK - is far less effective. Sometimes opponent can literally "eat" up to 15-20 rounds of it without any tragical consequences. Especially if it is Fw190. And when I say 15-20 rounds, I mean hits. Can't say my shooting is worst ever or best ever, my average gunstat is around 10%.

Of course, ometimes you can shotdown enemy with 2-5 hits, but it has to be direct hits in engine/pilot/force constructuon elements.

 

And one more thing ©

If you flying German fighter and your opponent has fire solution - it means you already did something wrong.

Wrong.

If you fly cover for groundattackers and have high bogeys incoming that you might not see even the best virtupilot can end up with a six Especially in a game that has a drawdistance for contacts like BOS/M has). So please dont write before you think.

 

Its not just ignorant but insulting to trivalize things like that.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[7.GShAP/Silas]

You can't ask a question without being insulted. Disgusting.

 

 

Saying something is "strange" about one of the cannon in the sim or that one is a "laser" specifically fudged for balance is just a tactless way to seek out opinions from your peers about whether or not something changed in a recent patch.  Overreacting is also bad form, but you can't just insinuate things like that and not expect others to show a lack of patience with that attitude.

 

On a different note, I must say when you fly the Sturmovik and shoot aircraft down with those glorious 23mm cannon, you understand why they saw good use hunting Stukas and other such prey and not just for ground attack.  Very cathartic!  20mm is hell on control surfaces and specifically control rods.  Whenever I got shot down by those, that's why I go down.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Silas

[wtornado]

Not allways:

http://www.aerofiles.com/tiger-tail.html

Good read lol.

 

 

All l know is when I get behind a HE-111 in my Yak it is not airborne for very long.

 

I too do not fly long in my HE-111 when a Yak is behind me.

 

Just an observation.

[Jade_Monkey]

I loved an old MP mission where the He111 had to resupply the german airfields encircled in BOS.

 

The lagg with the 23mm was the best to intercept them. Il2 as well.

[=AD=B777R]

Wrong.

If you fly cover for groundattackers and have high bogeys incoming that you might not see even the best virtupilot can end up with a six Especially in a game that has a drawdistance for contacts like BOS/M has). So please dont write before you think.

 

Its not just ignorant but insulting to trivalize things like that.

Have you ever read practice recommendations for organizing cover to attackers/bombers? Does words echelon cover and fighter sweep mean smth to you? Have you seen it at least once in virtual sky?

 

I had. "So please don't..." ©, tell me about things you never practiced (my guess, mb i'wrong) and about insulting.

 

P.S.: if you can't see opponent - he can't see you. Drawdistance is same for both of you. If he can and you don't - it means only you looking around not good enough. Simple, isn't it?

Edited August 22, 2016 by =AD=B777R