German 20Mm

[Gunsmith86]

I believe Adler is talking about the missed rounds...they should be exploding after some distance when not making contact with anything, correct? Did all iterations of Minengeschoss rounds have a self detonating fuse?...because nothing in BoS game-play right now is self-detonating. 

 

Not all Minengeschoss rounds have a self detonating fuse!

 

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eeoda.de%2F2009%2F0903_FB1_2cm_BK-Mun.pdf&ei=wxkGVfDxA4nUOOrlgZAP&usg=AFQjCNFWUhHuaPgGqs5oxpuD61LOzbG5Ow&bvm=bv.88198703,d.ZWU

Edited March 15, 2015 by Gunsmith86

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

That's not quite right, most of the Minengeschoß used by the Germans had a VZ (Verzögerungszünder), they exploded when the shell was half to 2/3 inside the plane (due to obvious reasons).

Agree with most of the rest though. A 20mm Minengeschoss bullet should cause a "palm-sized hole". I have honestly never seen that, not on the offensive side, nor in defense. 

 

Minengeschoß self detonated around 1000m from the gun barrel if it traveled unfettered (ie. if it didn't hit anything to trip the VZ, it would detonate on its own.)

 

This is why the ability to custom load the belts would be a benefit to the game. It's a very simple concept and for me it is not worth debating with the developers, LukeFF or anyone else. It simply isn't minengeschoß. It doesn't meet the technical qualifications and it doesn't meet the destructive capabilities. What we have in the game is not minengeschoß - it is general purpose SA/HE ammunition. Period. Done. 'Nuff said. Fin.

 

Another worthwhile note: real Minengeschoß also had no tracer component. This is another technical quality that isn't met.

Not all Minengeschoss rounds have a self detonating fuse!

 

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eeoda.de%2F2009%2F0903_FB1_2cm_BK-Mun.pdf&ei=wxkGVfDxA4nUOOrlgZAP&usg=AFQjCNFWUhHuaPgGqs5oxpuD61LOzbG5Ow&bvm=bv.88198703,d.ZWU

 

I don't see anything in that that specifies otherwise... Lol.

 

EDIT: Correction. That chart does say that there are variants without "bursters" (mit/ohne Zerleger) but that term is a little generic for my understanding of the subject and this is the only document I have ever seen that makes that statement.

Edited March 16, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[ShamrockOneFive]

Obviously there are some details to the modelling that would be nice to see in future updates/patches. We can see that belting is a feature in the interface and although its limited to AP/HE choices right now I imagine that does open the door for more options there to be developed.

[SR-F_Winger]

 

 

limited to AP/HE choices

 

Germans dont have any choice right now right?

[LukeFF]

I don't see anything in that that specifies otherwise... Lol.   EDIT: Correction. That chart does say that there are variants without "bursters" (mit/ohne Zerleger) but that term is a little generic for my understanding of the subject and this is the only document I have ever seen that makes that statement.

[Edited]

Edited March 17, 2015 by Bearcat

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

[Edited]

There it is! What an excellent contribution to the conversation.

 

You will see that I was not addressing you and that I issued a correction of my initial statement. Not enough for you? Not my problem - Gunsmith can have that discussion with me if he would like - I would be more than happy to hear his explanation on the subject... I do know he is more informed on the subject as I am but your blind eyes musn't have read the part where I said this is the only document I have ever seen that talks about an "ohne Zerleger" variant... Not to mention it is compiled by some random guy on the internet that made no citations as to where he drew the information from... With that being said, I would dare say you are not as informed on the technical specifications of German ammunition as you pretend to be.

 

[Edited]

Edited March 17, 2015 by Bearcat
Personal .. PM sent

[Gunsmith86]

I will write something about ammunition and for what it was used. It will take me some time to do it when i am done with it i will post it here.

Until than calm down alltogether.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I will write something about ammunition and for what it was used. It will take me some time to do it when i am done with it i will post it here.

Until than calm down alltogether.

Looking forward to it!

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Gunsmith is definitely right, AZ have been used normally with Minengeschoss, like with other ammunition as well. They don't explode ever, when they hit no target (maybe when they hit the ground, i am not sure). I have seen some original documents a while ago, i forget where unfortunately. Don't know to which ratio, or at which times they used AZ and ZZ, only that both Minengeschoss had a VZ (Verzögerungszünder). But i am vouching for Gunsmith

I still have the opinion we don't have it in game (or modeled wrong) - wholes they cause are just not big enough.

[LukeFF]

I still have the opinion we don't have it in game (or modeled wrong) - wholes they cause are just not big enough.

 

Do remember the bullet and cannon shell holes we see in-game are not an exact visual representation of the damage actually done by the shells.

Edited March 16, 2015 by LukeFF

[SKG51_robtek]

Gunsmith is definitely right, AZ have been used normally with Minengeschoss, like with other ammunition as well. They don't explode ever, when they hit no target (maybe when they hit the ground, i am not sure). I have seen some original documents a while ago, i forget where unfortunately. Don't know to which ratio, or at which times they used AZ and ZZ, only that both Minengeschoss had a VZ (Verzögerungszünder). But i am vouching for Gunsmith

I still have the opinion we don't have it in game (or modeled wrong) - wholes they cause are just not big enough.

@ Celestiale,

 

the discussion was NOT about AZ and VZ!!!!

It  was about self destruction of the shells after a certain flight time without hitting anything.

[LukeFF]

Question: what is so important about modeling the self-destruct fuse of the Minengeschoss shell? 

[Cybermat47]

Question: what is so important about modeling the self-destruct fuse of the Minengeschoss shell?

 

People want as much realism in their simulators as possible, I would say.

 

And it's a little weird that War Thunder has the self-detonating minengeschoß while BoS doesn't.

[LukeFF]

People want as much realism in their simulators as possible, I would say.

 

And it's a little weird that War Thunder has the self-detonating minengeschoß while BoS doesn't.

 

Oooookay...It still doesn't really answer my question, though: why is modeling the self-destruct feature so critical to modeling Minengeschoss correctly? 

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

Oooookay...It still doesn't really answer my question, though: why is modeling the self-destruct feature so critical to modeling Minengeschoss correctly? 

 

I don't think that is the point people are getting hung up on here.  This thread was meant to discuss the MG151/20 and the lack of damage its doing to Russian stalanium armor.  

 

The lack of self detonating shells in the German cannon belts suggests that we might not be getting mine-shells in those belts - but rather some generic HE shell.  It's either that or the devs forgot to implement the self detonating part of the mine-shells. 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It's a very simple concept and for me it is not worth debating with the developers, LukeFF or anyone else. It simply isn't minengeschoß. It doesn't meet the technical qualifications and it doesn't meet the destructive capabilities.

I wanted to elaborate on this real quick... Viks could say the sky is neon green... That doesn't make it so.

 

I don't think that is the point people are getting hung up on here. This thread was meant to discuss the MG151/20 and the lack of damage its doing to Russian stalanium armor.

 

The lack of self detonating shells in the German cannon belts suggests that we might not be getting mine-shells in those belts - but rather some generic HE shell. It's either that or the devs forgot to implement the self detonating part of the mine-shells.

 

+1 Edited March 17, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[LukeFF]

I don't think that is the point people are getting hung up on here.  This thread was meant to discuss the MG151/20 and the lack of damage its doing to Russian stalanium armor.  

 

The lack of self detonating shells in the German cannon belts suggests that we might not be getting mine-shells in those belts - but rather some generic HE shell.  It's either that or the devs forgot to implement the self detonating part of the mine-shells. 

 

Even so, we have a least one person here vigorously making the claim that since the German 20 mm HE shell in the game does not self-destruct, then we don't have Minengeschoss modeled in the game. That, then, led to my question of why the simulation of this self-destruct feature is so important. 

 

I wanted to elaborate on this real quick... Viks could say the sky is neon green... That doesn't make it so.

 

You know, instead of insulting VikS, you could simply write a short PM to him, asking if Minengeschoss is modeled or not, since you obviously don't believe me. He has a wealth of information about how things are modeled and is happy to share that info with those who simply - and politely - ask for it.

[Cybermat47]

Oooookay...It still doesn't really answer my question, though: why is modeling the self-destruct feature so critical to modeling Minengeschoss correctly?

 

I'll elaborate on what I said before.

 

The people who play simulators want realism and immersion. If you know that minengeschoß should self-detonate, but you don't see that happening, then it hurts the immersion.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

You know, instead of insulting VikS, you could simply write a short PM to him, asking if Minengeschoss is modeled or not, since you obviously don't believe me. He has a wealth of information about how things are modeled and is happy to share that info with those who simply - and politely - ask for it.

Nobody is insulting anyone... You didn't get the point - likely on purpose, noless.

 

Just because Viks says that particular ammunition is being modeled doesn't make it so... And even if it was... Well, it's not... It doesn't meet the technical qualifications for said ammunition. Easily quantifiable with the amount of documentation out there... No top-secret Russian Military archival documents needed to draw that conclusion...

 

Last time I'll humor a response to you in this thread. Your inability to gather context outside of your own notions is your problem, not mine.

[LukeFF]

 

 

Just because Viks says that particular ammunition is being modeled doesn't make it so... And even if it was... Well, it's not... It doesn't meet the technical qualifications for said ammunition. Easily quantifiable with the amount of documentation out there... No top-secret Russian Military archival documents needed to draw that conclusion...

 

No offense, but I'll take the word of the people that work on this game every day if a particular ammo type is modeled or not over you saying "No minengeschoß. Only generic HE. Or at least that's what I'm getting from it."

[Matt]

Class_name = "CBatchExplosion"

object_name = "tnt20g_frag70g_HE_expl_building"

 

// 20mm warhead German shell guns MG 151/20, raschitnano of TNT = 20g, 92g weight bullet, caliber 20mm

 

////// PhysicsBody properties

VisualImage = 0, "graphics \ effects \ Arm \ hit_shell_he_20-100g_object.epl"

visualradius = 4

// ImageAttr = 17 // IA_NOCLIP | IA_NOMINPIXELS

 

SoundScript = "LuaScripts \ Sound \ explosions \ HE \ Metal_Small.cfg"

 

ExplosionPower = 0.5 // The power of sound explosions, variable for FMOD

Animation = 1 // Number hook explosion

LiveTime = 2.66 // Time Life explosion

AnimationTime = 2.66 // Time explosion animation

Ranges = 1,0.01,0.99,0 // (number of options, the beginning of the 1st range, the end of the 1st range, delta is added to the borders for the next range)

// "RangesCnt, Range0Start, fRange0End, fRangeStep"; ARG = m_fRange0Start + (m_fRange0End-m_fRange0Start) * t + m_fRangeStep * data-> m_RangeIdx

//Ranges=1,0.01,0.99,0

//Ranges=2,0.01,0.49,0.5

//Ranges=3,0.01,0.32,0.33

//Ranges=4,0.01,0.24,0.25

//Ranges=5,0.01,0.19,0.2

 

Radius = 3.0 // The radius of the sphere of impact high-explosive impact

TNT_equ = 0.02 // Trotillovy equivalent

 

// High-explosive impact, total number

ArmorFoug1 = 0.5, -1, 1,333, 0,333

ArmorFoug2 = 1, 1, 1.83, 0.83

ArmorFoug3 = 2, 1, 1.13, 0.13

 

// Shrapnel impact

ShrapnelQuantity = 30

// And for each fragment Sum

ArmorShr1 = 1.0, -1, 5,32, 0,128

ArmorShr2 = 3.0, -1, 5,32, 0,128

 

 

 

Class_name = "CBatchExplosion"

object_name = "tnt2g_frag90g_HE_expl_building"

 

// Warhead sovetskogo 20mm projectile guns ShVAK, raschitnano of TNT = 2r, bullet weight 91g, 20mm caliber

 

////// PhysicsBody properties

VisualImage = 0, "graphics \ effects \ Arm \ hit_shell_he_2-10g_object.epl"

visualradius = 3

// ImageAttr = 17 // IA_NOCLIP | IA_NOMINPIXELS

 

SoundScript = "LuaScripts \ Sound \ explosions \ AP \ Metal_Small.cfg"

 

ExplosionPower = 0.5 // The power of sound explosions, variable for FMOD

Animation = 1 // Number hook explosion

LiveTime = 1.5 // Time Life explosion

AnimationTime = 1.5 // Time explosion animation

Ranges = 1,0.01,0.99,0 // (number of options, the beginning of the 1st range, the end of the 1st range, delta is added to the borders for the next range)

// "RangesCnt, Range0Start, fRange0End, fRangeStep"; ARG = m_fRange0Start + (m_fRange0End-m_fRange0Start) * t + m_fRangeStep * data-> m_RangeIdx

//Ranges=1,0.01,0.99,0

//Ranges=2,0.01,0.49,0.5

//Ranges=3,0.01,0.32,0.33

//Ranges=4,0.01,0.24,0.25

//Ranges=5,0.01,0.19,0.2

 

Radius = 3.0 // The radius of the sphere of impact high-explosive impact

TNT_equ = 0.0026 // Trotillovy equivalent

 

// High-explosive impact, total number

ArmorFoug1 = 0.5, -1, 1,43, 0,43

ArmorFoug2 = 1, 1, 1.11, 0.11

 

// Shrapnel impact

ShrapnelQuantity = 12

// And for each fragment Sum

ArmorShr1 = 1.0, -1, 5,96, 0,384

ArmorShr2 = 3.0, -1, 5,96, 0,384

Above the ingame stats.

 

The Russian 20mm HE is actually pretty weak. Just take the La-5 with HE only loadout and you'll see. I think the AP(I) on the Russian cannons might be a bit off instead.

[LukeFF]

I asked Han during 1.010 testing if Minengeschoss is modeled, and he said it was. 

[MK_RED13]

Realy? and where? Fw190 with MG/FF(M) - it is minengeschoss?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

 

 

Above the ingame stats.

 

The Russian 20mm HE is actually pretty weak. Just take the La-5 with HE only loadout and you'll see. I think the AP(I) on the Russian cannons might be a bit off instead.

+1

[ducs]

It's really with the patch before the last that I've noticed any sort of difference. I've now seen on multiple occasions of putting a lot of 20's on target and it not doing any where near the amount of damage it did before. Enough for me to actually notice and ask the question.

 

Has anyone else noticed this or am I just nuts.

[LukeFF]

 

I thought you said weren't going to humor any more responses to me? 

Realy? and where? Fw190 with MG/FF(M) - it is minengeschoss?

 

Every German plane that has a 20 mm cannon, yes.

Edited March 19, 2015 by LukeFF

[LizLemon]

 

 

Above the ingame stats.

 

The Russian 20mm HE is actually pretty weak. Just take the La-5 with HE only loadout and you'll see. I think the AP(I) on the Russian cannons might be a bit off instead.

 

 

Can you find the exact composition of the ammo belts?

[Matt]

For the non-gondola German cannons, it's HE/AP/HE and for the Russian cannons, it's AP/HE/AP. German gondolas have AP/HE.

 

Ammo belt composition is overall too simple for this kind of flightsim imho and i hope they make additions/changes for that in the future.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Matt

[LizLemon]

Ah, so its just a sort of generic HE and AP round.

 

That is too simple, and combined with the limited belts we have now, something that definitely needs improvement. Add a few more ammo types and customizable belts would pretty much solve these issues.

 

With regards to the minengeschoss effectiveness, here is a good read;

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Diverses/Flugwerkschutzes.pdf

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

Warhead sovetskogo 20mm projectile guns ShVAK, raschitnano of TNT = 2r, bullet weight 91g, 20mm caliber

 

Wait ... what ? TNT = 2 g ?  Bullet weight 91 g ? 

 

Oh boy, Soviets have the oldest type of projectile in their belt, High Explosive Fragmentation OF projectile. 

 

Although even that one should have a better equivalent of filler as in real life it carried 3.7 g of Tetryl or GTT (GTT was a  composition of 75% RDX, 12.5% TNT, 12.5% Tetryl ). 

 

Not to mention that OF is quite old type of round, it was produced only and exclusively prior to the WWII. In general OF and OFZ projectiles were the first types to be introduced together with the ShVAK aircraft cannon. They were intended to destroy unarmoured targets with fragments and blast and to ignite gasoline in unprotected fuel tanks.

Originally it consisted of Tetryl, but from 1939 the 20 mm projectiles were filled with GTT. 
 

The first 20 mm OF and OFZ projectiles were fitted with the MG-3 point detonating nose fuze developed by designer N. F. Solovyev. However, that fuze was not bore-safe and caused frequent premature detonations. Additionally, the transverse locking bolt of that fuze was ejected when the projectile left the bore and could damage the skin of the aircraft. In late 1936 the MG-3 was replace by the MG-201 nose fuze, which was also developed by N. F. Solovyev. It had a centrifugal safety mechanism to provide a certain degree of bore safety.

[ShamrockOneFive]

For the non-gondola German cannons, it's HE/AP/HE and for the Russian cannons, it's AP/HE/AP. German gondolas have AP/HE.

 

Ammo belt composition is overall too simple for this kind of flightsim imho and i hope they make additions/changes for that in the future.

 

It really is. I've been paying attention to this thread and it sounds like we've a long way to go before the ammo types match up to a more simulation level that many of us expect. I do have hope that its something they will continue to work on. The development of BoM and adding things like oxygen to BoS have me hopeful that in addition to new content like maps and planes that they will also be looking into this stuff. The interface surely provides the ability to add more belting types and maybe even belting types per year of operation in the future... I'm sure its possible.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Question: what is so important about modeling the self-destruct fuse of the Minengeschoss shell? 

I'm not sure if or of the importance but it is modelled in other sims, WT and my only experience with it in CLOD, so it is a visual expectation of sorts.

 

Ah, so its just a sort of generic HE and AP round.

 

That is too simple, and combined with the limited belts we have now, something that definitely needs improvement. Add a few more ammo types and customizable belts would pretty much solve these issues.

 

With regards to the minengeschoss effectiveness, here is a good read;

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Diverses/Flugwerkschutzes.pdf

 

I'm hoping the Devs create historically accurate, pilot selectable, load outs and not the mess that that other sim has with being able to pick each individual round in your belt. That is not realistic either.

Edited March 20, 2015 by HerrMurf

[bivalov]

I asked Han during 1.010 testing if Minengeschoss is modeled, and he said it was.

in according to several old discussions on russian forum, and to my experience, i can state that now in game modelled ONLY M-Geschoss and AP (probably API).

 

in 1.009 ammo belt was changed from 1xAP - 4xM-G to 1xAP - 2xM-G (i.e. as said Matt, and looks like that is "ersatz" after some russian requests, about more complex modelling of ammobelts etc).............

 

 

Ammo belt composition is overall too simple for this kind of flightsim imho and i hope they make additions/changes for that in the future.

IMHO, this is not "IMHO".........   and i also really hope that in future will be at least some improvements....... although, mainly, this is need? only for german weapons like MG 151/20.

Edited March 20, 2015 by bivalov

[Matt]

 

 

in 1.009 ammo belt was changed from 1xAP - 4xM-G to 1xAP - 2xM-G (i.e. as said Matt, and looks like that is "ersatz" after some russian requests, about more complex modelling of ammobelts etc).............

To be honest, last time i checked that was before 1.009.

 

I checked that frequently since the early access and it has never been 1x AP, 4xHE when i checked. So i highly doubt anything changed in 1.009.

[bivalov]

To be honest, last time i checked that was before 1.009.

 

I checked that frequently since the early access and it has never been 1x AP, 4xHE when i checked. So i highly doubt anything changed in 1.009.

mmmmmmmm.......

 

before 1/009 personally i clearly seen lot of M-G hits (looks like exactly ~ 1xAP - 4xM-G). there were some talks, and after 1/009 i seen this, and in game now much more tracers than it was before.........

 

so, i just think that belt was a bit changed, and you confirm it. 

 

but now i a bit confused........... maybe i was wrong? in my thoughts.........

Edited March 20, 2015 by bivalov

[Matt]

Tracers are totally independant of the type of round. Both AP and HE can cause tracers. It just depends on the number of rounds fired. You can change the amount of tracers without any changes to the ammo belt. I personally did not noticed any increase in tracers anyway.

 

My Russian is still pretty bad, but even with google translator the post doesn't seem to say that anything changed recently, only that the loadout for the German cannon is 2x HE / 1x AP (which, unless anything changed, is not true for the gondolas though).

 

Anyway, if i don't forget it, i can check the current files and see if anything changed.

[Matt]

OK, checked with the current files and it's like i posted above. As for amount of tracers, it's every 4th round for heavy caliber machine guns and cannons and every 8th round for rifle caliber machine guns. No change, has been like this forever.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I will write something about ammunition and for what it was used. It will take me some time to do it when i am done with it i will post it here.

Until than calm down alltogether.

 

Still waiting for this.

[LizLemon]

I'm hoping the Devs create historically accurate, pilot selectable, load outs and not the mess that that other sim has with being able to pick each individual round in your belt. That is not realistic either.

 

Disagree

 

The luftwaffe had recommendations for ammo belt composition depending on target. But the choice was left up to the unit commander, who was often times under limited supply dictating how much leeway he would allow. Still, there were plenty of cases of pilots asking or preferring certain compositions and getting them, as well as many times where certain types of rounds were completely absent due to no supply.

 

On the US side where there were few shortages of ammo the pilots and gunners often got whatever load out they wanted. This is why you see some American aircraft transitioning to no tracers, and a while later people dropping the warning tracers at the end of the belt.

 

Fully customizable ammo belts is a solution to all the the variation and strange ammo belts that were used during the war. I don't see developer added belts as being a realistic solution given the sheer number of different compositions that were tried.

 

The only disadvantage is if servers have no way to lock or limit the players ammo belt selection.