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J3-Hetzer

Watch out...FLAK!

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I think it was somewhere near the edge of the map on the ferry mission. Artillery pounding the ground and Germanskis shooting flak at me (black puffs). I was all like "OI! This is an alpha!" :dry:

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I can confirm the sighting of flak!  Don't they know there is a truce on?  I demand an armed response ASAP!

Edited by SYN_Mike77

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Sorry I'm at work right now.  I'm not sure the game will still be up when I get home.

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Actually, the fake FLAK is a bad sign.. Hoping it's just for the edge of the map and will not cover the Stalingrad city just like on the no-mans-land in RoF.

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Has anyone managed to get hit?

I tried so hard, but never happened...

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Actually, the fake FLAK is a bad sign.. Hoping it's just for the edge of the map and will not cover the Stalingrad city just like on the no-mans-land in RoF.

 

 

It is a horrifying sight. I saw it on the first day and posted a question to the devs regarding its use, if at all. No answer so far, which also is a bad sign. I strongly suggest people to start addressing the issue to them, because it will spoil the gameplay. This is arcade stuff, not for a sim of this day and age.
 
For those who don't know what "ambient flak" is, it is fake flak, harmless, just for show. When you enter a certain area, it triggers fake flak around you, in a cubic box of a few miles. In ROF it is limited to no man's land, the mud in between the armies. It is random puffs, sometimes in clusters, and this confuses you with enemy presence. In ROF, many times you see clusters of ambient flak and you start looking for enemy planes or change your direction because of it. Many times it overlaps with the trigger or ambient flak from other players or with real flak on the ground.
 
In an area with ambient flak, there is no more the advantage to spot enemy planes due to real flak. You have to spot the enemy amongst the distant puffs, which can be easily mistaken by a plane. And where there is smoke there is no fire, so to speak. Many times you are caught by surprise just because the fake flak makes you stop paying attention to every dot on the screen. It is frustrating and very confusing. Not to mention that every time you enter enemy territory (edit - I don't know what they plan, if they plan at all) you are reminded that you are not really flying and that the fake flak reminds you of that. And you also curse a lot.
 
And there is the shell bursts on the ground. In no man's land, WWI, it makes sense, since you have the mud always under shelling. But to link it to ambient flak in WWII? If I enter alone in enemy territory, their batteries will think that I am also bringing the whole army along with me?
 
Let's hope that this is just a hidden gift for people to have some fun, but that it will not actually be part of the mods off game.
Edited by Seawolf
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It sounds like it is the same as the ambient flak in RoF. If true, it will not harm you. It is there just for "atmosphere." I am not a fan of it and hope they provide an option to turn it off. Better would be to not include it at all.

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Guys want atmosphere by having little terribly modelled infantry guys running on the ground, but ambiant explosions on the ground ruin it.

 

I'll never understand it.

 

I personally liked them in RoF. It was always very easy to tell the difference between the ambiant flak bursts in the air and the AI controlled flak aimed at enemy planes - the latter was MUCH more concentrated and rapid.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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I think that it its not 100% Realistic, like this, Harmless,I think its useless, better have nothing this year, and wait for something good in the next that having something strange

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Guys want atmosphere by having little terribly modelled infantry guys running on the ground, but ambiant explosions on the ground ruin it.

 

I'll never understand it.

 

I personally liked them in RoF.

 

The title of the post says "flak". But if they link flak together with ground explosions in a WWII sim, I don't know what they consider to be a sim. And you have to understand that ambient flak and ground explosions are two different entities at ROF. One is not linked to the other (so it seems).

Edited by Seawolf

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The title of the post says "flak". But if they link flak together with ground explosions in a WWII sim, I don't know what they consider to be a sim. And you have to understand that ambient flak and ground explosions are two different entities at ROF. One is not linked to the other (so it seems).

 

Why do you think these features are behaving any differently in BoS than they do in RoF?  Most likely the mission designer will set up an area on the map considered to be the "front lines", and that area will have ambient ground explosions and flak.

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Why do you think these features are behaving any differently in BoS than they do in RoF?  Most likely the mission designer will set up an area on the map considered to be the "front lines", and that area will have ambient ground explosions and flak.

 

We are discussing flak, I have no idea of what you are talking about.

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I personally liked them in RoF. It was always very easy to tell the difference between the ambiant flak bursts in the air and the AI controlled flak aimed at enemy planes - the latter was MUCH more concentrated and rapid.

 

From a simulation perspective, what do the random air bursts simulate?  They didn't really fire shells into empty space.  In RoF, ground explosions and even very low air bursts are acceptable to me, as those are things that really did happen.  It was due to artillery and mortars firing at ground targets.  But flak filling the air over the front line, especially when there were no enemy aircraft around, is a fiction.  Flak was directed at targets.  In WWI, it was even used as a method of communication with nearby friendly aircraft.  In WWII, flak was fired at targets, not empty space.

 

Having real flak bursts obscured by ambient flak is purely a game construct.  I can see no good reason to have fake flak.

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I hope ambient flak does not make an appearance in BoS.  It's a  daft enough destraction in RoF.  It adds nothing to "atmosphere" and flak was not fired into empty skies in either WWI or WW2.

 

Flak firing is a sign of enemy aircraft in the vicinity and therefore a useful indicator.  Let it remain that way. 

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The title of the post says "flak". But if they link flak together with ground explosions in a WWII sim, I don't know what they consider to be a sim. And you have to understand that ambient flak and ground explosions are two different entities at ROF. One is not linked to the other (so it seems).

 

You conveniently left out the sentence regarding the flak that I made.

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I assume there are no hard coded trenches in this game like there are in RoF, so hopefully the mission builders will have more control over what is considered the front lines and whether that includes ambient flak.

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I love that this is one of the things people are talking about. It means the first week of release went nearly flawless. Please continue your conversation of the feature that can be turned off in 2 seconds.

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It is a horrifying sight. I saw it on the first day and posted a question to the devs regarding its use, if at all. No answer so far, which also is a bad sign. I strongly suggest people to start addressing the issue to them, because it will spoil the gameplay. This is arcade stuff, not for a sim of this day and age.
 
For those who don't know what "ambient flak" is, it is fake flak, harmless, just for show. When you enter a certain area, it triggers fake flak around you, in a cubic box of a few miles. In ROF it is limited to no man's land, the mud in between the armies. It is random puffs, sometimes in clusters, and this confuses you with enemy presence. In ROF, many times you see clusters of ambient flak and you start looking for enemy planes or change your direction because of it. Many times it overlaps with the trigger or ambient flak from other players or with real flak on the ground.
 
In an area with ambient flak, there is no more the advantage to spot enemy planes due to real flak. You have to spot the enemy amongst the distant puffs, which can be easily mistaken by a plane. And where there is smoke there is no fire, so to speak. Many times you are caught by surprise just because the fake flak makes you stop paying attention to every dot on the screen. It is frustrating and very confusing. Not to mention that every time you enter enemy territory (edit - I don't know what they plan, if they plan at all) you are reminded that you are not really flying and that the fake flak reminds you of that. And you also curse a lot.
 
And there is the shell bursts on the ground. In no man's land, WWI, it makes sense, since you have the mud always under shelling. But to link it to ambient flak in WWII? If I enter alone in enemy territory, their batteries will think that I am also bringing the whole army along with me?
 
Let's hope that this is just a hidden gift for people to have some fun, but that it will not actually be part of the mods off game.

 

I think it is not flak like in ROF it is scrapnel  brusts above the front it is still horrifying but it is war!

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I love that this is one of the things people are talking about. It means the first week of release went nearly flawless. Please continue your conversation of the feature that can be turned off in 2 seconds.

 

I agree that it does seem to have been a pretty smooth release, very pleasing.  Can we turn off ambient flak Hooves?  I hope so.

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Devs can turn it off. Though i dont mind it at all. My point is we are all arguing about very small details. Which all points to the fact that the core product is an overwhelming success for the opening goal they sought to achieve.

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This is not FLAK, it looks more as incoming artillery shells as seen in ROF.

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Devs can turn it off. Though i dont mind it at all. My point is we are all arguing about very small details. Which all points to the fact that the core product is an overwhelming success for the opening goal they sought to achieve.

 

Ah.....I see what you mean.  Agree completely :biggrin:

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My point is we are all arguing about very small details. Which all points to the fact that the core product is an overwhelming success for the opening goal they sought to achieve.

 

 

I agree that the opening goal was achieved, in part due to the fact that BoS is RoF with WWII planes. Kudos to them to migrate a successful formula to BoS, but flak indeed is fundamental and not a detail. To talk about war planes and not talk about flak is the same to eradicate barbecue sauce from the American barbecue (I suppose). Buffalo wings with no spicy. You get the picture.
 
So, whatever successful they do, if they use ambient flak is the same of throwing a bucket load of paint over Mona Lisa and say that Pollock would have liked it. You cannot mix oranges and apples and say that ambient flak or not is peanuts. I consider grass in ROF peanuts, not flak or ground objects or anything of this magnitude.
Edited by Seawolf

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From a simulation perspective, what do the random air bursts simulate?  They didn't really fire shells into empty space.  In RoF, ground explosions and even very low air bursts are acceptable to me, as those are things that really did happen.  It was due to artillery and mortars firing at ground targets.  But flak filling the air over the front line, especially when there were no enemy aircraft around, is a fiction.  Flak was directed at targets.  In WWI, it was even used as a method of communication with nearby friendly aircraft.  In WWII, flak was fired at targets, not empty space.

 

Having real flak bursts obscured by ambient flak is purely a game construct.  I can see no good reason to have fake flak.

 

+1.

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Guys want atmosphere by having little terribly modelled infantry guys running on the ground, but ambiant explosions on the ground ruin it.

I'll never understand it.

I personally liked them in RoF. It was always very easy to tell the difference between the ambiant flak bursts in the air and the AI controlled flak aimed at enemy planes - the latter was MUCH more concentrated and rapid.

 

Well.. that'll kind of curb the flak cheat .. right.. You know the flak cheat.. the one where guys exploit flak by using it as an alarm for enemy aircraft... :sleep::dry::unsure::wacko:;)

 

I hope ambient flak does not make an appearance in BoS.  It's a  daft enough destraction in RoF.  It adds nothing to "atmosphere" and flak was not fired into empty skies in either WWI or WW2.

Flak firing is a sign of enemy aircraft in the vicinity and therefore a useful indicator.  Let it remain that way. 

 

Me too.. that's almost as bad as... never mind..

 

I love that this is one of the things people are talking about. It means the first week of release went nearly flawless. Please continue your conversation of the feature that can be turned off in 2 seconds.

 

That's good to know.. case closed..

 

Devs can turn it off. Though i dont mind it at all. My point is we are all arguing about very small details. Which all points to the fact that the core product is an overwhelming success for the opening goal they sought to achieve.

 

Discussing... we are discussing .. :);)  I agree about the release though.. I think it was great and I think this sim is going to be more than anyone expected...  I'm wondering how many people there are out there sying .. "Daggnabbit!! I should have bought that standard edition when I had the chance.. Now I'm gonna have to not only buy premium and wait another month.. but I'll be paying $5 more than I could have... " :rolleyes:

 

I don't think that this sim will ever be as all inclusive as IL2 was .. but I think it will have room to expand to other theaters..

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Please continue your conversation of the feature that can be turned off in 2 seconds.

 

At least not in ROF. It belongs to mods off in multiplayer -- you can't turn it off --, so, either you suck it, you like it or you have to start asking for changes.

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What kind of atmosphere? It is totally out of the blue and has nothing in common with what was done in WWII, but " it has atmosphere".

I posted further up a US trainig video showing various kinds of real flak and it has nothing in common with ambient flak.

On the basis of "atmosphere" you can then justify everything....

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Well i guess its worth discussion to have it or not. I would argue that the small flak we see should be present if we are near a combat zone. I mean who knows whats down there shooting up at you. But to have it very far from a fight is silly.

 

And what i meant by turn it off in 2 seconds, is that devs can turn it off. Its not an effect buried deep in the engine. Honestly though it has never bothered me, not even once. So im a little surprised to see it discussed with such vigor. At the end of the day if its there at game release ill have most likley forgotten that this thread exists.

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But you will be able to place real anti-air units in the editor, hence, removing fake flak is not removing flak entirely. So if you are being shot by flak over Stalingrad - you know you need to be careful and this is not just an eye-candy effect. Not to mention, flak will give away your position and will make you a blinking radar target to any nearby enemy fighters. Isn't this the atmosphere and realism one would be looking for in a WW2 sim?

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