Whats your opinion on the new FW FM?

[JtD]

There was nothing about the Fw in the patch notes, so I strongly doubt there's a change.

 

I'm getting an error on game launch now, and can't be bothered to care enough to fix it, so I can't check.

[Willy__]

Placebo guys. They didnt change the 190, I highly doubt it will be changed in the near future. Brace for months of porked 190. (or shelve the game)

[Gump]

i think there is a difference in saying "sudden stall" and saying "sudden stall too soon". the real life FW (which variant?) may? have had a sudden stall, but the other characteristics may differ in those reports. ... "pulled into a tight g turn"(turbans quote)...? this seems to be a rather vague statement, with a lot of important parameters missing, like entry speed, how far into the turn, how many G's, etc. ... the quote mentions that this "limits its maneuverability margins" ...well, duh, but that does not mean its "maneuverability margins" weren't already exceptional. in other words, how is eric brown's description of the FW comparing to the preponderance of historical accounts of the FW's reputation as an excellent fighter?

.

i still cannot dismiss some very obvious clues about FW performance, in that we have top-notch real life expert participant support from both british and german wwii pilots saying the FW could maneuver very well (including turn). these were pilots accustomed to considering 109 tactics when the FW appeared - so it apparently had more maneuverability than the 109. if the 109's were considered better at high alt, while the FW was better lower, that is even more indication of it's maneuverability being an improvement over the 109. it would be obvious that some FW pilots might err into a stall while fighting a slower spitfire (by slowing too much or snap-rolling), but that doesn't mean the plane could not turn well (which would contradict the previous points).

.... however, the BoS FM can not claim to represent these historic accounts and legend. it does not work this way. imho, it is more than just a little off. IF the error is small (herrmurf), the results in performance seem, nonetheless, huge.

.

ack! i was responding to posts way back in the thread...oops - didnt notice which page i was on.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Gump

[Dr_Molem]

Remember when FuriousMeow said his usual xxxxxxxx "FW-190 was used as a fighter-bomber on eastern front for a reason lolololol" and Han quoted his post to reply "I agree with everything you said" ?

 

What i'm trying to say is... Dev's opinions of a plane play a big role for the FM.

 

"FW-190 'great fighter' is a western thing"

[RAY-EU]

I agree with @ER*Melhilion

 

I agree with him and reduce the stall of the  Fw 190 to do not surprise any more the adversary by this way but they cut this to maybe  balance the  game .

So they have improve the easy handle and acceleration and reduce the stall . Glovaly I like this update the  ' Fw 190 A3 ' is more funny because of the little 'maneabrability' .

Is a small improve far away from the history Fw190 A3 datas that we are constantly mentioning during years ... like climb speed , turn time , roll rate ... and with only 2 20mm canons ¡ and 4 20mm canons should not change too much performance and caracteristics like is specify in the history ww2 data archives ?¡ only 8km/h more speed...

The Fw190 roll rate is better tan La 5 because one reason : has not fuel in the wings .

May be when La 5 FN apears ...... we will have and know the FW 190 A5 for example with closer WW2 History data like it real was .

Edited May 19, 2016 by RAY-EU

[Holtzauge]

Have just had time to do a limited evaluation after the upgrade but my first impressions of the Fw-190 in 2.001b are positive and in addition the game loads much faster and seems to run more smoothly.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I literally haven't felt a difference, except technochat now gives you approaching stall AoA warning.

[RAY-EU]

Sorry but I have not try the update 2.001b only just the Fw 190 4 hours in Expert Multiplayer .

I need more time to appreciate the difference ...

The final balance of the Fw190 obout the update before 2.001b is that is esasy to hadle so much more funny to fly . Good Improve

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Placebo!!!!!

[CUJO_1970]

Ah yes - the healing power of placebos - turned out it was just a water pill after all. 

 

I sure did feel better for a little bit though.

[Irgendjemand]

Ah yes - the healing power of placebos - turned out it was just a water pill after all. 

 

I sure did feel better for a little bit though.

OK, ok so no reason to vcome back after all. Sad. Have fun buring for the russians guys.

[Original_Uwe]

There's always DCS

[Irgendjemand]

There's always DCS

This is what i actually play the last months:)

[KoN_]

You could always test in the dogfight server . 

[Irgendjemand]

Friend gave it a shot yesterday on DED. Encountered 2 russians (YAK and/or LAGG-3) at 3k, Co/E and alt. Tried to run away. Ran to the end of the map. No way to escape. At the end where he had to turn around he tried it with shallow dive (emergency power all the time until treetop). And guess what. Russian meanwhile in firing position simply caught up to him. Nothing you can do. Not even run away.

Back to DCS.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Irgendjemand

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

At the end where he had to turn around he tried it with shallow dive (emergency power all the time until treetop).

The real Fw190 could outdive the 109 F4 for example:

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=24&L=1SyncId%3D99428BB4-5AF5-554D-AB35-5178712EEA61

The 190 in the game can not.

[KoN_]

Took the 190 out last night in the dogfight server , started off quite well just straight line attacks and extend , then started to mix it up a bit more , with the Yak , twist and turning vertical rolls and scissors , did`nt do too well .

Had a Mig3 on my tail at high alt , Rolled over to the right and started a downward spiral reaching speeds of 500kmh,  the 190 flipped over onto its back into a flat spin . Bailed . 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Friend gave it a shot yesterday on DED. Encountered 2 russians (YAK and/or LAGG-3) at 3k, Co/E and alt. Tried to run away. Ran to the end of the map. No way to escape. At the end where he had to turn around he tried it with shallow dive (emergency power all the time until treetop). And guess what. Russian meanwhile in firing position simply caught up to him. Nothing you can do. Not even run away.

Back to DCS.

How do you know you were co-E with any certainty? And how hard was your reversal at the end of the map. Both of these have a huge impact on relative performance. It's not a good test/example.

 

Your results are different than mine largely because your tactics are different. I'm not saying my tactics are historically accurate but my results are very different than yours. Use emergency power for moderate climbs of 45-90 seconds. Reduce throttle to 2400 rpm and climb angle for two minutes. Maintain 300 kph. Rinse and repeat.

 

I can outclimb any Russian AC this way and preserve most of my WEP as well.

 

Fight in her how you want but when it comes to fleeing with my skirt flapping in the wind I've become a master.

Edited June 6, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[KoN_]

I think ill just stick to reading the History books. Just got the third book Black Cross Red Star . 

[ZZ15_dasSofa]

It`s sad to say but in my opinion the FM is compare to other Flight Simulations and even some Games the worst one. In RoF the FM is ok for that Style of flight and Aircraft but in BoS in many situations you notice that the Engine`s FM is not made for this type of Aircrafts and flights.

 

I fly over 20 Years RC Planes, i am a Paraglider and fly some Hours Sail and Motorplanes per Year so i got a bit of feelings how its in the Air.

I call BoS/BoM rather a Game as a Simulation - but it makes fun to fly !

In my opinion there is a lot of work to make it more realistic to call this a Sim but after 3 Years since released and with the Engine`s and DX9 limitations it will not happen.

 

Thats just my mind of it.

[MasterBaiter]

In RoF the FM is ok for that Style of flight and Aircraft but in BoS in many situations you notice that the Engine`s FM is not made for this type of Aircrafts and flights.

 

+100

[Irgendjemand]

+100

+1000

Its a nice arcadegame however.

[NachtJaeger110]

Comparing this sim to other sims in order to answer the question whether this one models planes with over 1000hp, 3tons weight and top speeds more than triple that of small motorplanes right, is about as unscientific as it gets....

 

And yes, I have flown 4 seater Cessnas and smaller stuff, too.

Edited June 14, 2016 by NachtJaeger110

[Crump]

 

 

HerrMurf' timestamp='1465241472' post='363124'] Fight in her how you want but when it comes to fleeing with my skirt flapping in the wind I've become a master.

 

Historical recreation! 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Gotta pick your fights and know when to live for another day. I don't throw my virtual life away unless I am defending a teammate.

[Crump]

I am just saying the Focke Wulf was not known for 

 

 

 

fleeing with my skirt flapping in the wind

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

So no Fw driver was ever caught at an energy disadvantage during the war? I'd like to see those sources.

 

It doesn't happen to me very often but when it does there are tactics for successful evasion that many here continuously ignore. I continue to state the Fw is not right but it's not a complete dog either.

[Crump]

Well nobody said this...

 

 

 

HerrMurf' timestamp='1466007048' post='364655'] o no Fw driver was ever caught at an energy disadvantage during the war? I'd like to see those sources.

 

 

 

HerrMurf' timestamp='1466007048' post='364655'] I continue to state the Fw is not right but it's not a complete dog either.

 

Ok and nobody has said anything different.  In fact, the problem has been rather specifically defined in the physics and documented using all sources of original documentation.

 

Your Devs do not listen and the message is drowned out by posters wishing to score personal points on the internet.  Therefore you get a dysfunctional product that reflects the community.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Crump

[KoN_]

It`s sad to say but in my opinion the FM is compare to other Flight Simulations and even some Games the worst one. In RoF the FM is ok for that Style of flight and Aircraft but in BoS in many situations you notice that the Engine`s FM is not made for this type of Aircrafts and flights.

 

I fly over 20 Years RC Planes, i am a Paraglider and fly some Hours Sail and Motorplanes per Year so i got a bit of feelings how its in the Air.

I call BoS/BoM rather a Game as a Simulation - but it makes fun to fly !

In my opinion there is a lot of work to make it more realistic to call this a Sim but after 3 Years since released and with the Engine`s and DX9 limitations it will not happen.

 

Thats just my mind of it.

I think you might be right , best thing to do is to go back to what it was like before the patch , because i don`t see hardly any 190 on the servers , even in the dogfight server it used to be some 190 but now , no one is flying it . i looked on the states for this month DED expert LW side , were is the 190 ,..??? 

Gotta pick your fights and know when to live for another day. I don't throw my virtual life away unless I am defending a teammate.

First thing the RAF noticed was that the LW was staying around too fight , The day they came across the 190 . 

[FTC_Blaky]

With all respect, Gentlemen, that quote about Germans staying in the fight is completely out of context. AFAIK, the RAF unit was a rookie one and Germans knew that. If you read all books carefully, you find that the LW radio service determined who is flying and where and passed this info to fighter units. German pilots specifically mentioned that they had treated different units differently (e.g. Biggin Hill wing,  they flew more carefully when they knew they had taken off). The second thing is the specific tactical situation, for some reason (dunno from my head) they were as a unit a tail end charlie and Germans attacked them on the way home when most allied units were about to land, so they didn't fear the numerical disadvantage. And they slaughtered the rookies. It does not say anything about FW-190. I have doubts about the way FW-190 is modelled here, but let's stay at the technical things. 

PS: Germans didn't stay in the fight as a tactical doctrine, as one of the pilots stated: "...you can't check your six in a dogfight, it's too risky..."

Edited June 20, 2016 by II./JG53_Wolf_Ettel

[CUJO_1970]

After playing a few weeks on DED normal server on watching many flight recordings, my conclusion is this:

 

IF the FW190 flight model is a truer representation of flight, then many of the other aircraft desperately need the same scrutiny and "fineness" applied to them. When an aircraft like the Lagg3, an aircraft that earned the nickname "lacquered and guaranteed coffin" by its own pilots is performing like an Extra 300 in comparison then we have a problem.

 

The level of disparity is what is completely unbelievable.

[LukeFF]

 

 

When an aircraft like the Lagg3, an aircraft that earned the nickname "lacquered and guaranteed coffin" by its own pilots

 

Another example of a quote taken entirely out of context. 

[Crump]

With all respect, Gentlemen, that quote about Germans staying in the fight is completely out of context. AFAIK, the RAF unit was a rookie one and Germans knew that. If you read all books carefully, you find that the LW radio service determined who is flying and where and passed this info to fighter units. German pilots specifically mentioned that they had treated different units differently (e.g. Biggin Hill wing,  they flew more carefully when they knew they had taken off). The second thing is the specific tactical situation, for some reason (dunno from my head) they were as a unit a tail end charlie and Germans attacked them on the way home when most allied units were about to land, so they didn't fear the numerical disadvantage. And they slaughtered the rookies. It does not say anything about FW-190. I have doubts about the way FW-190 is modelled here, but let's stay at the technical things. 

 

PS: Germans didn't stay in the fight as a tactical doctrine, as one of the pilots stated: "...you can't check your six in a dogfight, it's too risky..."

 

This is what everyone who ever flew in combat did......

 

 

 

The point is the pilots wanted the FW-190 and not because it was economical but rather because it was effective at fighting other aircraft.  They stuck around in situations as noted NOT by the Luftwaffe but rather by their opposition and fought in circumstances they would not have before because of this.

 

[Turban]

This sentence your underlined doesn't say what you want people to think it says.

 

Same old same old around here. 

[CUJO_1970]

Another example of a quote taken entirely out of context. 

 

 

No, it is not.

 

"​It was an unpleasant client...pilots didn't like flying the LaGG-3 - a heavy beast with a weak M-105 engine - but they got used to it. Even so, we had higher losses on LaGG-3 than in I-16s." - Soviet Pilot Victor M. Sinaisky.

 

And there are many more references that say the same, also form Finnish, Japanese and German test pilots in addition to the Soviet.

 

But LaGG-3 in the sim flys through every maneuver with ease, meters above the ground as online pilots pop flaps and pull crazy AoA and enjoy only the most benign flight characteristics. There is no suggestion of difficulty in sharp turns, sluggish stick forces, or the tendency to fall into a spin - unless those accounts are all taken out of context as well?

 

Which goes back to my original point: If FW-190 is a more accurate representation of flight, then many of the other aircraft in this sim are glorified. 

[Crump]

Here is the take away from the RAE trials....

 

 

 

The LaGG-3 was born of the urgent requirement to build a fighter from non-essential materials such as wood. Within a remarkably short period, the design team of Lavochkin, Gorbunov, and Goudkov (hence the LaGG acronym) delivered a prototype which was immediately ordered into production.

The first LaGG-3s to enter service suffered from being overweight and underpowered, poor manufacturing standards and slow climb performance. Its pilots were also endangered by a deadly high stall speed. The first versions of the LaGG-3 were inferior to the Messerschmitt Bf 109 F in every aspect of dogfighting except in the horizontal plane, and even then the Bf 109 could simply break off combat and climb to safety. The LaGG was so mistrusted that its pilots dubbed it the "lakirovanny garantirovanny grob ("guaranteed varnished coffin").

 

http://hyperscale.com/2007/features/lagg3series66bg_1.htm

[Turban]

 I love the attempt at crafting some sort of visualisation of one's fantasy by taking bits and pieces of text here and there to serve as "proof of...something" . 

 

Well short answer, ingame :

-The FW is a formidable fighter at low and med altitude.

-The 109 is vastly superior to the Lagg 3.

So it's all good

[Lusekofte]

I flew a couple of missions in the FW 190 this weekend, having this never ending discussion in mind. Mind you I currently fly with a high end yoke and not a joystick. I think this got a lot to do with my positive attitude towards the FW 190.

When I bought this game I was in a COD squad and flew Luftwaffe, we had discussed and agreed that FW 190 would be the plane of choice in BOS since there where no 110 around.

I was the only one managing to get it to the air within a hour, and control it on the ground. I think it was the input on my floor based yoke that made me have the right amount of force when needed. Same goes for the flying.

I need to use muzzle for flying, this tend to make you ease your actual input to the controls. And having in mind how it once where I might never really pushed it to the limits.

However I do not enter a flat spin unless I provoke it to, I continue to get away from attackers and have absolutely no problem getting a advantage using this plane.

I really cannot comprehend what people expect, I admit I fly underdogs only in this sim, I am not a fighter pilot by trade. It simply is not my cup of tea. I base my opinion on how I can deliver bombs and get away alive in it.

[CUJO_1970]

We have LaGG series 29 in the sim. The Finns had to get their engineers to modify the wings on theirs to help with it's stalling characteristics. The aircraft went through about 60 different modifications by the time the series 65 showed up.

 

This was before all that.

 

And yet, It can do a Cuban 8 within the airfield boundary. It can perform continuous loops at very low altitude (2-300ft at bottom of loop) with virtually no sink rate at the bottom of the loop. It has the excess engine power and very low-speed control authority to do this until you get bored and decide to quit.

 

It has the flight model of a very powerful biplane.

 

It is in this light that I look at the FW-190 FM, with it's flaws openly exposed while some other aircraft (109s, Yaks, LaGGs and Lavochkins) are glorified in comparison.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

May I ask where did you folks get that the series 29 LaGG-3 was a piece of junk? The LaGG-3's original design was far more promising than the Yak-1, and performed better at most if not all aspects. Performance only fell when the requirement for 1000km range overloaded the design, but that is easily fixed by, you know, taking less fuel. And we're talking about the early five-gun wooden wonder with the M-105 here, not the extensively reworked and lightened series 29 with two guns and the more powerful M-105PF. Just because the Finns couldn't fly the aircraft without stalling it doesn't say much about the design itself, and above all it says nothing about the Fw-190.

 

The LaGG-3's main flaws are very clearly worked into this game: on the horizontal, it behaves like an overloaded Walmart pushcart. On the vertical, it flies like the same pushcart being pushed up a 45 degree slope by someone in their late 90s in a hot summer day. It's good aerodynamics make it easy to retain the speed gained, but once you lose it you'll be waiting a good while to get it back. Its ground handling and take-off quirks are also modelled to the detail, like the sudden roll. The La-5 spins easier than any aircraft in came and requires copious amounts of micro-corrections to fly straight or perform a combat turn without snapping.

 

The Fw-190 might be overly twitchy, and there are probably corrections due, but to say the LaGG-3 is somehow magical and the La-5 is glorified is silly.