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=LG=Blakhart

BoM planes in TAW campaign.

Using planes from BoM in TAW campaign.  

78 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree on using planes from BoM in campaign TAW?

    • Yes.
      73
    • No.
      5


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Gentelmans!

Yesterday we did first official tests. On the next stage we need to choose basic,extra planes and the loadout for them for the campaign.

 

We would like to choose planes from IL-2:BoS standard edition because, still not everyone have the BoM but on the other hand it will be really hard to balance the planeset having only few aircrafts...

 

For bombers, the choice is easy:

Ju-87 vs Il-2 , both with limited loadout.

 

But with fighters situation is preety complicated.

As we all know at now there are 2 superior planes in the game Bf -109 F4 & Yak-1 and obviously those will be an extra choices.

 

So what we have for basic ?109 G-2 & Lagg-3 ???

G-2 has better top speed & climb rate.
German side would have an extreme advantage... Unfair.

 

If we would choose planes from premium we could match:

109 G-2 vs La-5

FW-190 (without wing cannons ) vs La-5

 

Much better would look

 

109 E-7 vs MiG-3

109 F-2 vs P-40

109 E-7 vs I-16 t.24 - > and so on.

 

So that`s why we ask about the planes from BoM.

Do you agree on using machines from BoM in Tactical Air War as a basic planes ?

 

Plus what you suggest as a basic plane in first campaign ?

Edited by =LG=Blakhart

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Personally as somebody who doesn't own BoM yet I would recommend making the LaGG-3, P-40 and I-16 as Soviet basic aircraft.

 

As a unit (or pilot) improves its performance, they would be overhauled to the MiG-3, Yak-1 or La-5 and hand over their old aircraft to whatever standard neighbouring regiment there was. The last three are high-performance aircraft that can easily match the best of the Luftwaffe in capable hands, while the first three can hold their ground but need pilots to really work on their positioning and tactics to score victories.

 

For the Luftwaffe, the three basic aircraft could be the Emil, F-2 and G-2 I guess, with the Bf-109F-4, Fw-190A and C.202 open for those who get good results with the initial aircraft.

 

Truth be told while obviously you guys want to make this enjoyable for everyone, the Luftwaffe had aircraft that were considerably faster and climbed better up until 1943, when new Yak, La-5 and P-39 versions closed that gap, so whatever the case is the LW will still hold an 'extreme' advantage until then. The solution is simple though - if the enemy is faster, fly higher than him then dive on the bastard, end of problem.

 

Perhaps a more elegant solution is to wait until April when BoM is fully out and most people will own it, then just keep BoM aircraft as 'basic' models and BoS aircraft as 'elite' models.

 

My 2 cents of course, good luck with the server whatever the case, I'm having fun there :)

 

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention, the VVS has an enormous advantage over the Luftwaffe in the fighter department when you factor in air-to-ground operations, which are the core of the campaign. The LaGG-3, I-16 and P-40 can carry a great variety of bombs, rockets, machine guns and cannons, and above all they can take insane amounts of damage and still get back home. So while a head-to-head CoAlt CoE dogfight at medium to high altitudes hands the advantage to the Luftwaffe, down on the deck the VVS can go in quickly, attack the German convoys and defenses, then bring their aircraft back in one piece before the German fighters can reach the target area. This in my opinion is more valuable than any climb rate or top speed advantage.

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Rather try and have  historical planeset and limited! planes(per squad as you want to do) then try to balance it....

 

Cause I dont want to fly E7 just because its seems fair...

 

Stick with ADW 

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Why fair?

Go with historically accurate plane set

No 190's, F/G 109's as standard, E as limited ground attack aircraft.

Edited by II./JG53_Uwe

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Why fair ???  :unsure:

 

Will you fly as a red pilot in LaGG-3 vs 109 F-4 ??? :biggrin: 
 

Because pilots on both sides need to have equal chances in dogfight ???

Isnt it obvious ? :cool: 
If someone wants to act like a "wannabie experten" and kill dozens od Lagg`s in his might F-4 should stick to offline. 
AI has no brain, players have, so if they will be killed few times because of technical adv of the enemy they will just switch to different server.

 

If one of the sides will have worst planes the simple consequence of this will be a lack of players in this team.

Do we want to fly 30 vs 0 ?

 

Plus

Because if you want a historical planeset and conditions it means that red team should have 60 slots for pilots vs 30 slots for blue side.

Red team should have 10 x more planes to use.

 

I mentioned about that in the TAW topic.

 

Check plz

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21029-tactical-air-war/?p=333797

 

Basic plane MUST be worst than extra plane and the pain in the ass is the 109 F-4 and Yak-1 were the most common used but IN GAME THEY ARE SUPERIORS.

What sense is to make an superiors as a basic planes, huh ?
 

Thx, for the feedback.

I hope I explained our arguments.

 

:salute:

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Will you fly as a red pilot in LaGG-3 vs 109 F-4 ??? :biggrin: 

 

Because pilots on both sides need to have equal chances in dogfight ???

Isnt it obvious ? :cool: 

If someone wants to act like a "wannabie experten" and kill dozens od Lagg`s in his might F-4 should stick to offline. 

AI has no brain, players have, so if they will be killed few times because of technical adv of the enemy they will just switch to different server.

 

If one of the sides will have worst planes the simple consequence of this will be a lack of players in this team.

Do we want to fly 30 vs 0 ?

 

The logic is sound, Blakhart, particularly in light of offsetting the numerical factors of the war.

 

That being said, I feel compelled to comment on this bit: I so love to take the LaGG-3 against the Bf-109F-4, the Fw-190A and whatever else the Luftwaffe has in stock for me, and in no way I feel that I am handicapped by it. Why?

 

Because I personally disagree strongly with "killed few times because of technical adv of the enemy". While nearly all virtual pilots love to dabble on performance charts and complain that a certain performance of this aircraft or that ruins everything (flight model bug reports and etc. notwithstanding), or that it is impossible to fight enemy A because our plane B doesn't fly/climb/roll/turn as fast, that to me is a very cheap excuse for making mistakes that get people killed.

 

It's always really easy to blame your own or the enemy's aircraft for a defeat, but all in all who got killed? Who put themselves in a situation that allowed the enemy to use their performance advantage? Who let the enemy draw their nose and guns towards them? You, the pilot, not the aircraft. The aircraft merely responded to your own commands and inputs, and put you where your tactical choices led you to be, nothing more. Frankly if I had Battle of Moscow I'd be merrily flying the I-16 all the time right now, but alas.

 

This is also worth for the German pilots too though - having to fly the Bf-109E-7 or Bf-109F-2 will not turn an ace into a loser, and quite frankly most nations allied with Germany actually had to deal with second-hand Bf-109Es even up to 1943. Those who find it a problem can do what most units had to do in WW2 to get upgraded: give results that prove they are worth the new aircraft.

 

Factually speaking, the 10-20km/h difference in top speed and the 3m/s in climb rate that stand between most fighter aircraft in this simulator are easily offset by flying a little higher, managing energy a little better and in the Soviet case operating the engine properly, so none of them are an excuse for poor performance.

 

From someone who is far from being a great pilot and flies Soviet most of the time (unless teams are uneven), whatever you organisers choose will work just fine. Just make sure to keep one BoS aircraft in the lineup so you can get people who only own BoS to join in too.

 

Keep up the good work :)

  • Upvote 1

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Blakhart, you where talking about the basic planes, of course, the e7 is okay.

 

I missunderstood you

 

Are you aiming for different planesets? Lets say I want to fly 110 first and then 190 etc? Like in the old Adw times?

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Example of future plans:

Basic bombers

Blue: Ju-87 4xSD70 + 1xSC250

Red   Il-2     4x FAB50

 

Extra planes

Blue line A - FW-190 + 4xSC50/SC250 /SC500/

        line B - Ju 87 + 37 mm BK + all bombs

        line C - He - 111

        line D - Bf - 110

        line E - Ju - 88

        line F - Bf - 109 E-7 + bombs

Red line A - IL-2 mod 41 

        line B - IL-2 mod 42

        line C - Pe -2 s35

        line D - Pe -2 s87

        line E - MiG - 3 with rockets ( they were used many times during the war as a ground attackers IIRC, if I`m wrong plz tell me )

        line F - LaGG - 3 + 37mm + bombs + rockets

 

Basic fighters

Blue: Bf-109 E-7 + 4xSC50

Red   LaGG - 3 + 2x50kg bombs + 20mm cannon

 

Simple logic. 

E-7 is agile and have good climb rate, but on the other hand slower than LaGG-3 and even a small burst of machine guns can destroy his engine.

Also have good view from cokpit and can take 4xSC50kg so he can destroy max 4 heavy targets like tanks.

LaGG-3 have more amunition for 20 mm cannon (160 rounds) ,better balistic and stronger shells. It has extreme durability and can take a lot of damage.

He also can take bombs but only 2.

 

Blue line A - Bf-109 G-2 + 2x20mm + removed head rest / removed head rest / removed head rest + SC250 kg

        line B - FW-190 A-3 + 120 MGFF

        line C - Bf-109 F-2 

        line D - Bf 109 F-4 removed headrest + armoured wind screen / 4xSC50kg + head rest

        line E - Bf - 110 E-2 ( no bombs, fighter version )

        line F - MC-202 sVIII 

Red line A - La-5 all mods

        line B - LaGG-3 + 23mm

        line C - P-40 all mods

        line D - Yak-1 all mods

        line E - MiG - 3 no rockets

        line F - IL-2 mod 41 20mm / 23 mm 

 

 

Its only a example to show you guys how it can look, not a serious proposition.

One more thing. IF we will have more maps it means more campaigns, so the basic planes AND extra plane lines will change like in historical.

 

So different campaigns will have different planesets.

 

Example

Moscow 41 planeset:
Basic - 109 E-7 vs I16 t24

Extra planes 109 F-2, Bf 110, MiG-3, Lagg-3, etc.

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Good Idea BUT give the planesets a evolution of planes, say bomberset a is: ju87 all bombs no bk then he111

And someone else wants ju88, okay first ju87 with bk and then ju88.

 

Same for fighters, e7 as basic and then f2 and then 190

 

The lower the end plane the earlier or better the first plane( 110 fighter early and mid and then maybe f4 till end or g2 or 190, so everyone is happy)

 

Just my 2 cents

Edited by I./JG21-HeTzeR

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Perhaps a certain amount of destroyed targets will give you the next available plane in your planeset(skillpoints, which are only counted if you are rtb alive) that way it works even in one campaign(map)

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No offense, but that is asinine.

Basic fighter for the Luftwaffe in Moscow 41 the E7? Just to 'make it fair'.

 

The problem with this is that no one-not even you guys-are going to have such consideration for us in 1944/45. Are you going to set up a server for a future battle of X 1944 where the allies have no mustangs, griffin spits or la5fn because it's unfair to us in our crap-tastic 109G-6 can't compete?

No, I highly doubt it.

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Just a note on armament, from what I know IL-2s from the start of the war typically carried 100Kg bombs, also often 8x rockets if attacking targets like convoys and locomotives.  You probably know that and it's just an example you threw together to demonstrate, but I just wanted to say. :)

 

I would hope that such BOM aircraft as the Ju-88 that fit in BOS would be included,  It's only natural.  Good luck with the server!

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Ok Silas, but just count firepower of Ju87 4xSC70+SC250 + 2x machine guns vs IL-2 4x100kg+8xrockets + 2 x machine guns + 2x20mm cannons. :)

 

Uwe. We are discussing :) I`m far away from being offended.

I understand your logic.

Ok.

Please propose me your variant of basic aircraft and extra aircraft.

Edited by =LG=Blakhart

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Of course! Though I can only speak for the Luftwaffe.

First I'd suggest eliminating the FW altogether.

For battle of Moscow F-2 as default, E-7 limited to ground attack roles.

Battle of Stalingrad G-2 as default, with limited F-4's.

Both with limited alterations-neither should have removable head rests, and gun pod use should be severely limited. Jabo variants for both of course.

It's pretty easy the default fighter should be whatever was most prominent during the battle portrayed.

Edited by II./JG53_Uwe

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I think uwe thinks that the basic plane is the one you always have to fly.

 

Its just the backup, you can get your "premium" plane by choosing the Planeset you want.

 

And there you have a F2-4 G2.

 

But you have to earn that plane, thats the whole thing.

 

its not a dogfight server ;) 

  • Upvote 1

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No pilot had to earn their F4 of G2 by flying an E7.

They were standard issue.

And they should be the default in game.

That easy. The aircraft that were there should be there in proper proportion.

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Not everyone has the premium edition so not all pilots even have the E-7. You will lose a lot of pilots interest going with the E-7. I'm with Uwe on this the F2 should be standard and the E-7 limited to ground attack roles. The F4 can be additional plane. Just my 2 cents.... ;)

Edited by II./JG53_Badger

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Frankly the devs have done the hard work already in modeling the most numerous aircraft already.

BoM:F-2/Lagg3/Mig3

BoS:F-4/G-2/Lagg3/Yak1

Those are the 'base fighters' that should be available.

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No, I wont accept it, I will simply leave it be if it builds into an arcade server.

There is only one right way to do this right, and that is with historically accurate plane sets. Any other way is simply pandering to one side or another.

Edited by II./JG53_Uwe

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Try to see it in the long run - after a while most squadrons will be flying aircraft of their pick and the newcomers will get the lower tier stuff until they, too, get upgraded.

 

The situation in the air will look like a historical server eventually, and the behaviour of pilots will be more responsible too than in most servers where any old Joe can pick up a Fw-190 or La-5, crash it into a Stuka and start again.

 

It's a concept that was really popular back in the day (and, coincidentally, it was run by the heads of current 1C:GS) and which many people were missing. The idea here is that each pilot is responsible for making a difference and having an impact to, collectively, win the campaign. While you need to make some concessions initially in terms of aircraft and numbers, it pays off by having a long-run campaign.

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Hetz, easy :) Instead of proposing to leave it`s better to explain: Why ?

Chill.

 

Uwe, on some part you are right about the historical truth but you need to understand the most crucial part of the planeset.

 

There is only one right way to do this right, and that is with historically accurate plane sets. Any other way is simply pandering to one side or another.

 

No. 

The math taught me that there is always a lot of options to solve a problem.

I wrote before why we can`t use the historical planeset, don`t you understand that???  ;)

 

It`s from the topic about the TAW, please read it again to understand my point.

 

This gonna be a historical campaign with historical planeset ?
Yes, we would like to create few historical campaigns on available maps. Now we are on the test stage so so all mods and planes are available and we have only one map, but...  
Our main goal is to balance the gameplay and keep the fair & equal conditions for both teams. We all know how the World War II and their dogfights were looking from the books. The virtual enviroment have own rights and factors, before you start to judge think a bit.
So about the balance of planeset and limitations... Just think before you start your critic.  
Can we kill most of the senior pilots and tacticans on the red side before the war starts like it has place in history? No.
Can we restrict usage of radio(TS) on the red side? No.
Should we register only one red experienced pilot per every 20 rookies ? No.
Can we decrease the skill of the blue pilots during the campaign to simulate Luftwaffe problems with training young bloods ? No.
So should we decrease the overall number of blue pilots on the server to keep the ratio of forces on the Eastern Front ? No.
So should we arm the red side in 10 x more planes than blue side ? No.
Can we implement the poor quality of the soviet planes or engine problems after few sorties ? No.
Finally, can we change the FM of some planes, which are flying "not so correctly" ? No... No...No...  
What we need to do is to try to arm both sides with planes having advantages and for balancing them we will count factors like, top speed, climb rate, turn time, durability, armament, number of bullets, loadout,etc.   

 

Lets go back to the point.

Basic plane needs to be worst than extra.

Is F-2 is worst than F-4 ???
Both are excellent and driving them is a pure pleasure.

 

So will you have so much motivation to fly resonably in your extra plane when you will have the same good plane as a backup ?

Mate it was working as hell.

Plus.

We are building an elite online war with really hard settings, not for beginners or medium players.

Hetzer can tell you how hard was to get a kill on ADW and there when you had streak bigger than 30 tanks/planes you really was happy about it.

It was a real torment to jump in to 109 E-4/B and dance with I-16 type 16. Even now I still remember those fights, some of the actions, kills.

Why ?
Because it was really hard. Those were the hardest & the best combats I`v ever had.

Being on top 5 bombers / fighters was more than nobilitation.

 

Plus you WILL have the F-2 if you will collect enough points :)

Then it will be a matter of your skill to keep it so YOU WILL HAVE the historical planes.

 

BoM:F-2/Lagg3/Mig3 BoS:F-4/G-2/Lagg3/Yak1

 

If we will use F-4 & Yak-1 as basic, everyone will fly them, because they are superiors, dont you understand this ?
No motivation to collect points, geting ground kills, air kills. You understand it ?

 

How you want to match LaGG-3 with german planes to keep the balance ?
Will you be a confident driving LaGG-3 vs 109 G-2`s hanging above your head Booming & Zooming all the time? 
Nope.

 

Plus the basic plane is changing for the campaigns. 
In example for 1942 year, the 109 F-4 will be the basic plane.

For the 1943 the 109 G-2 will be the basic plane and so on.

 

Uwe, I asked you to give your proposition about the planeset.

Please match the planes, lets say for 1941 Moscow campaign, choose the basic`s and extra`s for both sides.

 

Have in mind I`m not offended nor angry about that discussion.
I`m trying to explain you "Why" and hope others will read that and also understand the idea of planeset.

 

Cheers!

:salute:

Edited by =LG=Blakhart
  • Upvote 1

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I haven't thought a lot about it but a quick proposal :

 

I only have 3 layers of planes so that if for example someone is liking more the IL2, he can quickly have more unlocks on it. On the other hand if he don't like the IL2 that much he can alternatively choose to quickly have the Pe2 with basic bombs instead. Same goes for the fighters. They can either spend their points to have a better fighter, or use them to be able to do some fighter/bomber job with their more basic plane.

 

- I've included the 37mm on both the Ju87 and Il2 in the 1942 planeset because they are much fun, even if it's not historically accurate for either of them. 

- On unlocks for VVS I don't fly russian planes at all (except the yak sometimes) so I have no real idea about balance/effectiveness of all the available loadouts. I put what looked right from my LW point of view but it can be changed.

- One thing left aside is the P40 that I don't know where to place it. Since I don't have the premium BoM version I don't know what it is capable of. Place it where you think it should be.

 

Of course it's all open for discussion  :)

 

 

'41 planeset :

 

LW bombers :

Standard : Ju87 > SC250+SD70 or 1SC500 (ju87B2 like loadout)

Advanced : Ju87 all bombs (except SC1800, no BK); Bf110 with basic loadouts (SC50/250); He111 with basic bombs (SC50/250/500)

Premium : Bf110 all loadouts; He111 all loadouts (except SC2500 and 2xSC1800); Ju88

 

LW Fighters :

Standard : Bf109-E7

Advanced : Bf109-F2 ; MC202 + bombs for the E7 (+ MC202 ??)

Premium : Bf109-F4 + bombs and gunpods for the Macchi and 20mm for the F2

 

VVS Bombers :

Standard : IL2 1941, 4xFAB50/100

Advanced :  IL2 1941, all bombs + rockets; Pe2 ser35  (6 FAB100 or 2 FAB250)

Premium : IL2 1941 23mm; Pe2 all loadouts

 

VVS Fighters : 

Standard : i16 20mm

Advanced : P40 (4 or 6 .50cal) + bombs and rockets for the i16

Premium : Mig3 (20mm ?) + bombs for the P40 (+ stock LaGG3 ?)

 

 

'42 Planeset :

 

LW bombers : 

Standard : Ju87 all bombloads up to 1000kg (maybe a Bf110 with the standard loadouts ?)

Advanced : Ju87 all bombs and BK37 ; Bf110 with bombs up to 500kg; He111 with bombs up to 1000kg (all combination of SC50/250/500/1000); Basic Ju88

Premium : Bf110 with SC1000; He111 all loadouts; Ju88 all loadouts

 

LW Fighters :

Standard : Bf109-F2 ; Bf109-E7 with optional bombs ; MC202 

Advanced : Bf109-F4/G2 + bombs/gunpods for the F2 and 202

Premium : Bf109-F4/G2 with bombs/gunpods ; FW190 (MG/FF 60 or bombs)

 

VVS Bombers :

Standard : IL2 1942, Basic loadouts (100kg bombs and small rockets)

Advanced :  IL2 1942, all unlocks ; Pe2 ser87  (All 100 and 250kg bombs)

Premium :  Pe2 all loadouts. I would like to add something there but what ?

 

VVS Fighters : 

Standard : Stock LaGG3

Advanced : LaGG3 with unlocks (37mm or not ?); Mig 3 (20mm ?); yak1

Premium : La5 + unlocks for the previous planes.

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber

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Nice plane set Gruber!

 

From the Red side of things, I don't know if the LaGG-3 is adequate in that 1941 model. Even if we ignore the fact that the 29th series of aircraft appeared in June 1942, making it a little awkward there, there's the major problem in its performance. The series 29 with the M-105PF engine is, for 1941 standards, a beast - it can hit upwards of 500km/h on the deck and over 560km/h at altitude.We also have the fact that it can pack that amazing 23mm gun which makes short work of even heavily-armoured 1942 aircraft like the Fw-190, and it can take a lot of damage, which might be a problem for the Bf-109F-2 and its 15mm gun or the C.202 with those lousy 2 Breda-SAFAT.

 

What I'm trying to say is, with the LaGG-3 in 1941 I would feel like I was cheating :biggrin:

 

It would be better to just keep the I-16 as basic, the P-40 as an upgrade, and ultimately the MiG-3 as top tier.

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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As I said, I'm no expert in russian planes at all  :)

 

so no LaGG3 s29 in the 1941 planeset. Or maybe in premium with 20mm only ? LW would have the stock F4 at this stage.

 

...And you just solved my P40 problem  :biggrin:

 

 

 

Also one thing to notice is that there is not much tank busting potential in the 1941 planeset, so maybe for campaigns using it it could be nice to adapt the type of tanks on the convoys (more BT7 and T70, and less T34s)

 

 

 

EDIT : I've updated the planeset above

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber

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VVS Fighters : 

Standard : Stock LaGG3

Advanced : LaGG3 with unlocks (37mm or not ?); Mig 3 (20mm ?); yak1

Premium : La5 + unlocks for the previous planes.

 

Sorry mate, but actual La5, can't be any Premium, is a total crap

 

Maybe a better option was, it can be used as planeset of punishment battalion, for team killers in VVS

Edited by RedEye_Miji

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Then you don't know the plane very well.

 

This last two month I've been shot down by La5 more often than by yaks. 

 

There are some pilots here than do an amazing job at dogfighting with them and do as good as a 109 can do. And contrary to a yak, slamming full throttle won't leave him behind.

 

 

I also thought that this plane was lame, but now that some people showed me what it was capable of, I have much more respect for it and for the pilots who fly it succesfully.

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The La-5 is a beast if handled right. In most ways it's toe on toe with the Fw-190 - fast, good armament, nasty if you fly it badly.

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