Tactical Air War

[FTC_DerSheriff]

Trucks were never a winning condition. Only changes the replenishment mechanics of .. I think tank columns and maybe airfields. Not sure. But not a winning condition

[StG77_Kondor]

yes gruber, trucks and tanks are out.

 

i think the question is about pilots and planes.

 

Yup this is very unfortunate. Basically 'ground attackers can't win war' only mini Hartmanns/Kozhedubs can at 6,000m. God bless them. If anything - more ground attackers is really bad since they obviously lose more planes and pilots than a regular fighter flying cap at 6k.

 

TAW is set up and made for the glory hounds .

Edited February 10, 2018 by StG77_Kondor

[FTC_Etherlight]

That's bullshit and you know it. In the past when tanks were a victory condition basically every map was decided by tanks. This time they're not, and that's why it comes down to planes when the map stays at a stalemate for prolonged times, which is obvious in a war of attrition where a lot of planes are lost. Despite overwhelming numbers Axis did not manage to translate that into a ground war win for days and lost a lot of planes this round - tough luck. You're salty, just take a break or something. -_-

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Evalew

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

Yup this is very unfortunate. Basically 'ground attackers can't win war' only mini Hartmanns/Kozhedubs can at 6,000m. God bless them. If anything - more ground attackers is really bad since they obviously lose more planes and pilots than a regular fighter flying cap at 6k.

 

TAW is set up and made for the glory hounds .

 

This is wrong on so many levels. It seems you don't even grasp half of the gameplay.

 

On the ground VVS is dominating in air superiority and ground attacking for obvious reasons. LW on the other hand is dominating the sky with superior level bombers and fighters.

 

So why are VVS ground attackers and LW Bombers essential for fighters?

They are dictating where the fight is going to happen. If there are IL2s attacking tanks they are forcing the 109s down to a manageable level for the fighter escort. If Ju 88s are on the way to level bomb an airfield, they force VVS fights on altitude where they have a very hard time against 109s. This asymmetric balance is working out very well.

 

However LW players aren't realizing how the game is meant to be played for the most part. They try to compete on the ground where they simply don't belong. They try to win with tanks instead of level bombing Airfields. 

 

A lot of this comes down to missing teamwork, basic understanding of TAW and that most people feel like level bombing is boring.

[1./JG42flesch]

Bullshit is the overmodellt Red Ammo, who kills Blue Pilots and shot down Planes because the Effect is exaggerated.

[Guest deleted@103832]

"However LW players aren't realizing how the game is meant to be played for the most part. They try to compete on the ground where they simply don't belong. They try to win with tanks instead of level bombing Airfields. 

 

A lot of this comes down to missing teamwork, basic understanding of TAW and that most people feel like level bombing is boring."

 

Most people feel like it's boring because it is boring. I've done a fair amount of it for the first time this campaign, and put it on the fun meter somewhere between watching Girls episodes with the wife, and giving the dog a bath. If the clouds are medium or heavy, you may drag a He 111 up to 4 or 5k and accomplish nothing - - it's not a viable option on half the map frames. And it's not historically accurate, either. Not even close. Airfield attacks were low level affairs, even the massive ones at the beginning of Barbarossa. And it never was about destroying hangars with massive bombs, because you might be operating next week out of the airfield you're bombing. It was about destroying aircraft - mostly with the small SD bomblets that unfortunately aren't in the game. 1000kg and 500 kg bombs were a rarity on the eastern front; Werner Held's book on LW ordnance lists 1000kg and heavier bombs comprising less than 1% of dropped ordnance from 1941-43, and 500kg bombs as less than 4%. So this "Blue should bomb airfields, Reds are the ground attackers" argument I've seen repeated over and over in here - that doesn't even remotely resemble what happened in the real air war, and more importantly, nobody wants to do that shit full time. And there's plenty of teamwork happening on the Blue side for the past 3-4 campaigns, but I've noticed over several campaigns that even when a pretty impressive roster of squadrons switches over to Blue, they still lose. Blue only wins when they have a ridiculous numerical advantage. I used to think it was due to lack of teamwork and better players flying Red, but I don't buy that anymore. I'm not sure why, but my guess would be it has to do with IL-2 / Pe-2 structural toughness, and the stated in-game Red pilot retention advantage when it comes to a bailed out/captured decision. Regardless, it will be interesting flying Red next time.

Edited February 10, 2018 by deleted@103832

[Tuesday]

Bullshit is the overmodellt Red Ammo, who kills Blue Pilots and shot down Planes because the Effect is exaggerated.

 

I get pretty salty when I die too, don't worry - you aren't alone there.

 

However next time if you take off the level 10 LW tin foil conspiracy helmet before you post, you might not make ridiculous claims like that. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Dienstagsky

[StG77_Kondor]

That's bullshit and you know it. In the past when tanks were a victory condition basically every map was decided by tanks. This time they're not, and that's why it comes down to planes when the map stays at a stalemate for prolonged times, which is obvious in a war of attrition where a lot of planes are lost. Despite overwhelming numbers Axis did not manage to translate that into a ground war win for days and lost a lot of planes this round - tough luck. You're salty, just take a break or something. -_-

 

Clearly hit a nerve with the mini Hartmann/Kozhedub comment.   

 

'basically every map was decided by tanks'. Isn't that what the whole gist of this is supposed to be? "TACTICAL" Air War? Its funny you think my "BS" observation merited such a terse response. It's obvious what TAW has evolved (or devolved lol) to. Organized slaughter of ground attack planes who are just there for window dressing. If ground attack planes can't win the map by themselves, then all you have is a turkey shoot. 

 

 

This is wrong on so many levels. It seems you don't even grasp half of the gameplay.

 

On the ground VVS is dominating in air superiority and ground attacking for obvious reasons. LW on the other hand is dominating the sky with superior level bombers and fighters.

 

So why are VVS ground attackers and LW Bombers essential for fighters?

They are dictating where the fight is going to happen. If there are IL2s attacking tanks they are forcing the 109s down to a manageable level for the fighter escort. If Ju 88s are on the way to level bomb an airfield, they force VVS fights on altitude where they have a very hard time against 109s. This asymmetric balance is working out very well.

 

However LW players aren't realizing how the game is meant to be played for the most part. They try to compete on the ground where they simply don't belong. They try to win with tanks instead of level bombing Airfields. 

 

A lot of this comes down to missing teamwork, basic understanding of TAW and that most people feel like level bombing is boring.

If "how the game is meant to be played" means that blue just 'farms' (lol) AFs then why bother having any red tanks for us to kill? Just give us 100 factories in a map.Its lots of hilarious fun climbing to 6k and level bombing an AF over, and over and over and over again. Additionally the AFs have been drastically changed this time around and are MUCH harder to knock out than before.

 

Sure, blue doesn't have the IL-2, but any mixed flight of stukas/88s and jabos can do just as much damage as the same # of IL-2s on a tank convoy. The IL-2's main advantage is that for some reason the game devs have decided that the VYa 23mm is God's gift to anti tank guns .  

 

Next campaign you are more than welcome to come and just level bomb all day, every day from 6k. Let me know how that goes. I'll be flying red because apparently that's the only side that is allowed to use planes in a tactical manner.

 

I've made peace with the role ground attackers have here. It's nice if you can survive long enough to be listed on the page. But no matter how good or smart you are about how and what objectives to hit, your actions will have no effect on the maps. Oh you lined up perfectly and got an extra 5 trucks on that run. GREAT. Wait. Trucks don't mean shit. Only planes and pilots. Why? Because fighter pilots win wars! 

Edited February 10, 2018 by StG77_Kondor

[F/JG300_Gruber]

So why are VVS ground attackers and LW Bombers essential for fighters?

They are dictating where the fight is going to happen. If there are IL2s attacking tanks they are forcing the 109s down to a manageable level for the fighter escort. If Ju 88s are on the way to level bomb an airfield, they force VVS fights on altitude where they have a very hard time against 109s. This asymmetric balance is working out very well.

 

Yeah, so the main point of flying a heavy plane is playing the decoy so that fighters can win the war of attrition. Glorious.

 

Level bombing airfields doesn't achieve much, there are no planes on the grounds that will reduce the faction's stock, runways can't be rendered unusable with craters, and with that suspiciously accurate heavy flak, flying at 6k isn't going to save you. So unless you manage to gather 20+ bomber pilots ready to suffer 50% loss at each sortie, you won't be able to even maintain more than one AF closed on each mission. And this only to create a small hindrance to the red side, because you still won't win the map with this.

Edited February 10, 2018 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Paulshow2]

Norz! dude! i am so damned sorry for that teamkill! that was plain stupidity on my side! on top of that irony that sortie got me the yak1b you just lost due to my total failure.

 

Dear Admins, should you have the possibilty to "transfer" my yak1b to Norz, please do so!

 

signing off in shame!

[Norz]

Norz! dude! i am so damned sorry for that teamkill! that was plain stupidity on my side! on top of that irony that sortie got me the yak1b you just lost due to my total failure.

 

Dear Admins, should you have the possibilty to "transfer" my yak1b to Norz, please do so!

 

signing off in shame!

 

I have my Yak1b already. But thank you for your proposal !

Edited February 10, 2018 by Norz

[Inkophile]

 

 

... and with that suspiciously accurate heavy flak, flying at 6k isn't going to save you.

 

Uhhhmmmm... Have you ever actually flown level bombing missions in this game? At 6k it's a sensational freak occurence if the AA actually hits you. Even at 5k a hit is rare, and that's spoken by someone who prefers to fly at 300 kph IAS even with a Pe-2 or Ju 88 when bombing to get as high accuracy as possible. At 4.5k or lower AA is a definitive threat, but at 5k or higher you are practically untouchable by it.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Uhhhmmmm... Have you ever actually flown level bombing missions in this game? At 6k it's a sensational freak occurence if the AA actually hits you. Even at 5k a hit is rare, and that's spoken by someone who prefers to fly at 300 kph IAS even with a Pe-2 or Ju 88 when bombing to get as high accuracy as possible. At 4.5k or lower AA is a definitive threat, but at 5k or higher you are practically untouchable by it.

 

I spend 80% of my time in a bomber. I do level bomb when weather allows it.

However I'm not attacking airfields much. On the 3 tries I've been shot once by flak, flying straight, another one I managed to fly back home on one engine and the last time I got minor damages, waving after bomb drop to mess up the 52k's accuracy. All of this between 5.5 and 6k. My speed is usually around 320kph.

 

I'm luckier against defensive positions because there is less big caliber guns, but I'm always changing course at 5s intervals after the drop and many shells explode hair raising close. 

If coming on tight formation with wingmen, having to keep your maneuvers gentle, pretty sure you'll lose some planes each time.

 

Problem is that for the 52k,(I did some tests in netscape's KG55 scripted mission) AI low settings is laughable and just gives a nice background fireworks, but normal is already too dangerous and doesn't feel much different than high setting

 

So maybe I'm in bad luck but until then, I'll stand behind my claims. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by F/JG300_Gruber

[FTC_DerSheriff]

 

So maybe I'm in bad luck but until then, I'll stand behind my claims. 

I did some level bombing last campaign for the blue team and never got hit at 5k. Did maybe 10 Missions or so.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by DerSheriff

[KoN_]

We all know the AAA is a bug . Its been complained about since the beginning . AAA is a area weapon .

[StG77_Kondor]

I've only been shot down by flak once at 5k. A few light hits at 6k but it's very rare. The difficulty is hitting anything smaller than the large hangars at that altitude. Even worse now since buildings take much more damage to destroy. I've been hit by flak much more often going at 700kph+ at every angle known to man.

I'm already looking forward to the next TAW. All this talk about how easy Blue has it to win just by bombing AFs at 6k. I can't wait until I see you guys driving buses for a living.

[SCG_Darbzy]

Can someone clarify, if all the oppositions tanks are destroyed and they don't automatically lose the map anymore, surely no more will spawn in meaning that they can no longer conduct offensive operations and capture territory? 

Edited February 11, 2018 by 19//Darbzy

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Small report of sportsmannship from KPblM 

 

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=45746&name==FEW=N3croo

 

https://youtu.be/mAaZQliGSfM

 

important timestamps are 2:30 and 5:30 where he actually teamkills me on final

 

@ KPblM 

You have the option to say sth about this.

I'd also like to hear a translation from somebody who speaks russian. Even tho its unlikely to give me more insight other than hey that fuelleak was quite big

 

@LG well you know what my request is unless we get a really good answer

Edited February 11, 2018 by =FEW=N3croo

[Tuesday]

Small report of sportsmannship from KPblM 

 

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=45746&name==FEW=N3croo

 

https://youtu.be/mAaZQliGSfM

 

important timestamps are 2:30 and 5:30 where he actually teamkills me on final

 

@ KPblM 

You have the option to say sth about this.

I'd also like to hear a translation from somebody who speaks russian. Even tho its unlikely to give me more insight other than hey that fuelleak was quite big

 

@LG well you know what my request is unless we get a really good answer

 

Google translate gives me:

 

"N3coo you're a f****t goner"

"gondon (god damn?) bi***"

[Carl_infar]

Can someone clarify, if all the oppositions tanks are destroyed and they don't automatically lose the map anymore, surely no more will spawn in meaning that they can no longer conduct offensive operations and capture territory? 

 

Yes thats how it is now. 

 

If the tanks are destroyed no tank columns are generated but that side which doesnt have tanks can still defend.

[Carl_infar]

I spend 80% of my time in a bomber. I do level bomb when weather allows it.

However I'm not attacking airfields much. On the 3 tries I've been shot once by flak, flying straight, another one I managed to fly back home on one engine and the last time I got minor damages, waving after bomb drop to mess up the 52k's accuracy. All of this between 5.5 and 6k. My speed is usually around 320kph.

 

I'm luckier against defensive positions because there is less big caliber guns, but I'm always changing course at 5s intervals after the drop and many shells explode hair raising close. 

If coming on tight formation with wingmen, having to keep your maneuvers gentle, pretty sure you'll lose some planes each time.

 

Problem is that for the 52k,(I did some tests in netscape's KG55 scripted mission) AI low settings is laughable and just gives a nice background fireworks, but normal is already too dangerous and doesn't feel much different than high setting

 

So maybe I'm in bad luck but until then, I'll stand behind my claims. 

 

It must be Your bad luck, 

 

this campaign I fly  only blue attackers and bombers and have never been shoot down while level bombing by aaa.  

The hights from which I've been level bombing the AFs were never above 5k. Usually 4 to max 4.5K and in overcast weather (the aaa skill is reduced in overcast weather as per LG info) often as low as 2600 to 3000m. When the cloud base was below 2500 i was only dive bombing).

[SCG_Darbzy]

 

 

Yes thats how it is now. If the tanks are destroyed no tank columns are generated but that side which doesnt have tanks can still defend.

 

Thanks Carl.

[AKA_Relent]

Can someone clarify, if all the oppositions tanks are destroyed and they don't automatically lose the map anymore, surely no more will spawn in meaning that they can no longer conduct offensive operations and capture territory? 

 

 

Yes thats how it is now. 

 

If the tanks are destroyed no tank columns are generated but that side which doesnt have tanks can still defend.

 

I don't think one side losing their allotment of tanks has ever been an automatic winning condition for the opposing side (at least for the last 3 rounds of TAW that we've been flying it).  As Carl says, when one side loses their allotment of tanks, they can't generate any more tanks for offensive purposes, so they can only defend, and at best fight to a draw.

 

Besides capturing all of the enemy airfields (or all but one, but it gets damaged enough to become inactive), I believe the only way to win a map is if either the enemy's allotment of aircraft or pilots is used up.  Destroying all of the enemy tanks is covered above - destroying the enemy's allotment of vehicles will affect their ability to resupply/repair damaged airfields and defensive positions.

 

The manual is a little out-dated, but it's still pretty accurate in this area.

[Fidelity]

I don't think one side losing their allotment of tanks has ever been an automatic winning condition for the opposing side (at least for the last 3 rounds of TAW that we've been flying it).  As Carl says, when one side loses their allotment of tanks, they can't generate any more tanks for offensive purposes, so they can only defend, and at best fight to a draw.

 

Besides capturing all of the enemy airfields (or all but one, but it gets damaged enough to become inactive), I believe the only way to win a map is if either the enemy's allotment of aircraft or pilots is used up.  Destroying all of the enemy tanks is covered above - destroying the enemy's allotment of vehicles will affect their ability to resupply/repair damaged airfields and defensive positions.

 

The manual is a little out-dated, but it's still pretty accurate in this area.

Yup. It's always been this way.

[HR_Tumu]

Maybe dont win maps if you destroy all trucks.... or tanks... but you are helping a lot for win.... without trucks  enemy  cant resupply airfields and without tanks enemy cant send columns for conquer.... is ok for me

 

 

 

About attack over bases....  for me results very easy... im bored to claiming efective AAA over bases... is a lost claim... you can perfectly drop all your bombs on board P2 or H111 over the base, turn just over base, and back home... no problem  i see lot of times... level bomber at 4k seems intouchable for our ground  guys

 

And blast of bombs... simply are deathly  

 

For me TAW, along editions are always improving and grow, is fantastic, of course never can made to all happy ..

Edited February 11, 2018 by RedEye_Tumu

[=LG/F=Kathon]

Small report of sportsmannship from KPblM 

 

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=45746&name==FEW=N3croo

 

https://youtu.be/mAaZQliGSfM

 

important timestamps are 2:30 and 5:30 where he actually teamkills me on final

 

@ KPblM 

You have the option to say sth about this.

I'd also like to hear a translation from somebody who speaks russian. Even tho its unlikely to give me more insight other than hey that fuelleak was quite big

 

@LG well you know what my request is unless we get a really good answer

KPblM banned.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

It must be Your bad luck, 

 

this campaign I fly  only blue attackers and bombers and have never been shoot down while level bombing by aaa.  

The hights from which I've been level bombing the AFs were never above 5k. Usually 4 to max 4.5K and in overcast weather (the aaa skill is reduced in overcast weather as per LG info) often as low as 2600 to 3000m. When the cloud base was below 2500 i was only dive bombing).

 

OK, will have to try this again 

[Guest deleted@103832]

Yup. It's always been this way.

Up until about a year ago, destroying all the enemy's tanks won a map. Then it was changed to the current arrangement.

[Fidelity]

Up until about a year ago, destroying all the enemy's tanks won a map. Then it was changed to the current arrangement.

Really? I have played multiple TAW campaigns and can't remember ever witnessing that. Always seen it be either planes or pilots causing the win.

[Guest deleted@103832]

If you scroll back to the Feb/March 2017 posts in this forum, you'll find quite a bit of discussion about it.

[216th_Jordan]

 or pilots causing the win.

 

It was either planes or tanks, never pilots though. (hence the discussion about the unnecessary pilot kills who would not have been able to win a map anyways before a team ran out of planes)

[StG77_Kondor]

 

Maybe dont win maps if you destroy all trucks.... or tanks... but you are helping a lot for win.... without trucks  enemy  cant resupply airfields and without tanks enemy cant send columns for conquer.... is ok for me

 

 

AFs can then still be resupplied by players flying transport planes. So it's not completely closed off to resupply.

 

The point is. Fighter pilots can win maps by shooting down more planes. Logical. Ground attackers do not have the same victory conditions. #MeToo 

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

AFs can then still be resupplied by players flying transport planes. So it's not completely closed off to resupply.

 

The point is. Fighter pilots can win maps by shooting down more planes. Logical. Ground attackers do not have the same victory conditions. #MeToo 

 

I don't even know why you are trying to say that bombers don't have the same "winning possibilities" as fighters. The fighters are not your enemy. It is a team game. Neither VVS nor LW would win without Bombers. You are essential. 

 

Your complaint is like saying i can't win by myself as a goalkeeper in a football match. Damn i want to score goals too!.

[56RAF_Roblex]

KPblM banned.

 

       That was so unacceptable.

[StG77_Kondor]

I don't even know why you are trying to say that bombers don't have the same "winning possibilities" as fighters. The fighters are not your enemy. It is a team game. Neither VVS nor LW would win without Bombers. You are essential. 

 

Your complaint is like saying i can't win by myself as a goalkeeper in a football match. Damn i want to score goals too!.

 

You're 100% right it is a team game. So how come only one element of the team can actually contribute to the winning condition?

 

I'll try to remember next time I'm attacking a ground objective and see 23mm whizzing by me "fighters are not my enemy" I've been reliably told so!

 

You're missing the key point here. When red decides to play (every map except the first 2, personally I blame the plane list) every single map ends the same way. Plane/pilot attrition. To counteract the higher attrition among bomber pilots, some or all ground objectives need to be winning conditions. Or else we're just there in order to negatively contribute to plane/pilot attrition.

 

How can I emphasize this more? It literally matters 0 if you're a great bomber and destroy a few extra tanks/trucks than the average attacker per sortie. Whereas the great fighter pilots, averaging multiple kills per sortie are having an immediate impact. 

[Fidelity]

It was either planes or tanks, never pilots though. (hence the discussion about the unnecessary pilot kills who would not have been able to win a map anyways before a team ran out of planes)

You need to kill less pilots. I remember this causing a big controversy back in like 2016 (?) because TWB was chute shooting everyone they came across.

 

 

You're 100% right it is a team game. So how come only one element of the team can actually contribute to the winning condition?

 

I'll try to remember next time I'm attacking a ground objective and see 23mm whizzing by me "fighters are not my enemy" I've been reliably told so!

 

You're missing the key point here. When red decides to play (every map except the first 2, personally I blame the plane list) every single map ends the same way. Plane/pilot attrition. To counteract the higher attrition among bomber pilots, some or all ground objectives need to be winning conditions. Or else we're just there in order to negatively contribute to plane/pilot attrition.

 

How can I emphasize this more? It literally matters 0 if you're a great bomber and destroy a few extra tanks/trucks than the average attacker per sortie. Whereas the great fighter pilots, averaging multiple kills per sortie are having an immediate impact. 

Bombers/Attackers contribute by:

• Destroying tanks severely restricts other team from taking airbases.
• Destroying trucks makes it harder for them to repair their airbases.

I do agree with you that fighters have a greater impact though. The plane/pilot supply numbers should be doubled or something. Perhaps some more critical ground objectives need to be introduced as well.

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

You need to kill less pilots. I remember this causing a big controversy back in like 2016 (?) because TWB was chute shooting everyone they came across.

 

Wasn't just us. The guys that run this server are far more persistent with plucking those pesky parachuters out of the sky.

 

We were just a bit more vocal about it. But it's a win condition. Don't hate the player hate the game.

[Pail]

 

 

dillon_biz' timestamp='1518395956' post='573896'] Don't hate the player hate the game.

 

 

[Norz]

To be honest it is a big surprise that the blue team got more tanks than the red team did.

I was sure that the red team would win almost all maps because of the ground conditions.

 

The only explanation that I have is that the number of the red players is not big enough.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Norz

[Norz]

2 =LG=Kathon:

 

Can you publish the stats for the last map?

 

killed by AAA, player numbers for the both sides (summary for the flight hours), flight hours for the fighters, bombers.

 

Will be interesting to see.