Tactical Air War

[Carl_infar]

 

 

There is a thing called asymmetrical balance. However, this is barely the case on TAW. The ongoing campaign, it is basically over already, was one of the least fun TAW campaigns i have taken part in. Severe server crashes that took massive influence on the outcome of a Map is only the tip of the iceberg. In my opinion the focus for the next campaign should be balance

 

Most of the server crashes as far as I remember were during the nights when the US players flying mostly red side couldn't participate so it more helped blue than red side.

 

In this campaign the players numbers are finally even and the reds don't have to fight 3 against 40 as I remember was quite often in previous campaigns so for me this one is much more fun (I hope the numbers on red side will keep up so I can fly on blue side next campaign ). I think some of the LW players didn't got used to flying without numerical superiority, and now struggle a bit (just a joke)

 

Anyway if the LW would try a good oldfasioned team work the russians ​would stand no chance at all:

As I wrote some posts before, check the stats of the latest Random expert campaign. The Germans while logging less flight hours destroyed almost 18 000 more ground targets (~93000 while russians around 75 000 ground targets )  shoot down more than 300 planes more than did russian side and  won the campaign without any problems, so If You want true balance- 1000 kg and heavier bombs should be removed on german side, All german fighters including the 110s should loose the 250 and 500 kg bombs cause the russian fighters and attackers carry max 100 kg bombs, and still the german capabilities to close the defence positions, arty, depots, airfields would be grater with heavier Ju88s and he111 bomb loads. (Bombers on both sides need escort and without it they are just moving targets)

Flak 36 and Flak 37 can both mean the 37mm and 88mm, which is why their complete name IRL always includes the caliber (for example 8.8 cm Flak 36). In the above list it is the 88, and no 37 is at all included in the list. Only a stationary 20mm, 20mm on half-track, the 88, and the MG 34 AA mount.

 

Ah, thanks I didnt know that

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 

 

so If You want true balance- 1000 kg and heavier bombs should be removed on german side, All german fighters including the 110s should loose the 250 and 500 kg bombs

 

Well, I am in Favour of completely getting rid of "Blue" Bombs, SC1000 and upwards, except for 111H-6, which would only be allowed to carry 1 SC1000 + Internals, not 2x 1000. 

[=LG/F=Kathon]

Small update:

 

Ships convoys have been added on Kuban map. They appear for one mission periodically after about 2 real days and consist of 9 large cargo/tanker ships plus several ships with AA for protection. Axis ships can be located in the north-west area and Allied in south-east area. Icons will be visible on the map in game. 

 

Each cargo/tanker ship that survive the mission adds to the global limits:

  - 15 aircraft

  - 25 tanks

  - 40 trucks

 

Each destroyed ship is counted as 10GK and 300 experience for pilot. 

[Mad_Mikhael]

Yesterday, alone Stuka attacked Red tanks, from low alt, dopped bomb, died. Then, after few minutes, one 109 came, at 400m altitude, droped bomb, turn around, and started strafing column with guns. Got killed in first pass by AA. I remember Stuka with bomb strafing working airfields. Too bad I deleted this replays.

But still got one where 109 with bomb is diving, droping bomb, doesn't recover from dive and died.

...

...

And he droped bomb on his own tanks..

Oh, and I forgot to add that Stuka and 109 got winter camouflage.. on summer. And I remembered few more actions like that in this campaing.

Edited December 6, 2017 by =L/R=Mad_Mikhael

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

Most of the server crashes as far as I remember were during the nights when the US players flying mostly red side couldn't participate so it more helped blue than red side.

 

 

I don't know if you are implying that i am biased?. I don't care about which side got favored by it, it is less than optimal to say the least and i can't help but feel a little cheated to lose a map due to it. Then again, its not like LW would have won the map anyway but at least they could have put up a harder fight which would make the campaign last a couple of days longer.

 

Check out Mission #408 in which the server crash occured. LW was in a prime position to counter attack with the next active VVS airfield being quite far away from the important center. LW most likely would have managed to defend their own tanks and destroy the red ones leading to recapturing Plesovskiy.

Instead, due to the crash, this mission was skipped. In Mission #409 Plesovskiy has become active and were in a prime position to break the center by disabling Tormosin. Game over. 

 

On top of it the Numerical advantage completely shifted in that campaign. Even at "LW prime time" they weren't able to get any significant numerical advantage. I.e. at mission #413 today the odds were 1:2 or even worse. Now remember that even without the numerical advantage VVS won the last campaign.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I often feel as if most of the German Team doesn't really give a ... about the Mission Outcome at all. Even in a Team of 40 you are often completely alone in the main Action Area. I seriously have no clue what our Team is doing most of the time. They aren't defending, they aren't attacking, they aren't covering or capping. 

 

And of course the Germans never stand a Chance of winning in Attrition. 

[HenHawk]

Small update:

 

Ships convoys have been added on Kuban map. They appear for one mission periodically after about 2 real days and consist of 9 large cargo/tanker ships plus several ships with AA for protection. Axis ships can be located in the north-west area and Allied in south-east area. Icons will be visible on the map in game.

 

Each cargo/tanker ship that survive the mission adds to the global limits:

- 15 aircraft

- 25 tanks

- 40 trucks

 

Each destroyed ship is counted as 10GK and 300 experience for pilot.

Very cool!

[FTC_Riksen]

Leave bad weather, leave the unbalance war material (equipmemts are supposed to be different for each side with each one of them having their own strength) and all the other stuff as it is. It is supposed to be a historical or, at least, semi-historical war simulation and war is not balanced ... Nice job TAW team! The only thing I would humbly suggest is to save the best (longest) streak, both AK and GK, for the pilots and have that determine the best fighter/ground pounder.

[HenHawk]

Leave bad weather, leave the unbalance war material (equipmemts are supposed to be different for each side with each one of them having their own strength) and all the other stuff as it is. It is supposed to be a historical or, at least, semi-historical war simulation and war is not balanced ... Nice job TAW team! The only thing I would humbly suggest is to save the best (longest) streak, both AK and GK, for the pilots and have that determine the best fighter/ground pounder.

I agree, leaving longest streak would be nice. Even if it is just recorded on each pilot’s page rather than the leaderboard. But, sometimes it seems like those that are given recognition at the end of campaigns are the last to have AK/GK streaks, rather than the ones with the best streak.

[Cpt_Siddy]

IL-2 can take German version of 61-k hits.

 

German counterparts can not. 

 

IL-2 is just a its name sake suggest, a flying tonk. 

[Wester]

And of course the Germans never stand a Chance of winning in Attrition.

 

 

Its a sickness.

 

 

 

 

[Mad_Mikhael]

Its a sickness.

 

 

 

 

 

That is.. quintessence of LW teams. Inexperienced players joins LW and this video shows a final product.

Edited December 7, 2017 by =L/R=Mad_Mikhael

[Krau]

Its a sickness.

 

 

 Just was there in 109f4 that attacked 109 on the ground at 0:10... Guys, if you landed just take a side. the runway is not only for you. Hard damaged 111 was going to land (no way to avoid the landing and you waited more than 30 sec on the runway after landing... (the log shows it))

Edited December 7, 2017 by Kra

[[ZOO]Ckapa6eu]

I'll add. Do not line up on the runway. Wait aside or take off

[[ZOO]Ckapa6eu]

=LG=Kathon, Why in mission 389 the blue side had 3 airfields for protection (for attack), and the red side had only one airfield. What does it depend on and how to predict it?

Edited December 7, 2017 by [ZOO]Ckapa6eu

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Very cool!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MKGy2cg4Wk

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

Leave bad weather, leave the unbalance war material (equipmemts are supposed to be different for each side with each one of them having their own strength) and all the other stuff as it is. It is supposed to be a historical or, at least, semi-historical war simulation and war is not balanced ... Nice job TAW team! The only thing I would humbly suggest is to save the best (longest) streak, both AK and GK, for the pilots and have that determine the best fighter/ground pounder.

 

The thing is when you take the "historical balance" approach you cannot cherry pick. Why is the Vya-23 available? why will the Mk 108 be available? you can also argue about things not in the game, where are the valid Axis AA options already mentioned in this thread?

[7.GShAP/Silas]

The thing is when you take the "historical balance" approach you cannot cherry pick. Why is the Vya-23 available? why will the Mk 108 be available? you can also argue about things not in the game, where are the valid Axis AA options already mentioned in this thread?

 

 

So take the 23mm away from the LaGG, do what is historically correct with the Mk 108 and etc.  What's the problem?

 

As far as AA goes everyone should have what they're supposed to have historically, IMO.  I just would prefer them not to be ace.

Edited December 7, 2017 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I think in General getting rid of the AP only Belts for the VYa (given the Overmodelling of AP in general, as well as the dubious destructive effect of the VYa 23 AP rounds) I think that is a reasonable Option. After all, the VYa is one of the few Reasons to fly the LaGG at all. 

 

Overall I think some of the main points of imbalance are quite clear. 

 

• Soviet AT effectiveness is artificially enhanced by Il-2s with VYa AP only Belts
• 61-K having no Counterpiece on German Side
• Triangle of Death on Stalingrad Map

 

I also feel that Aircraft Gunners are highly ineffective to the point of absolute uselessness right now. I was able to quite happily sit on a Peshkas Dead 6 and he didn't get a Round in. 

And Russians can do the same to me. If you could just touch them up globally it would do the Ground Pounders a great Service. 

Right now we are just easy pickings. 

 

I think Attrition should just be dropped and assumed a win for Russians anyway. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[LLv34_Temuri]

• 61-K having no Counterpiece on German Side

 

So it's just not added to the missions? German side does have the 37 mm flak available.

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

I also feel that Aircraft Gunners are highly ineffective to the point of absolute uselessness right now. I was able to quite happily sit on a Peshkas Dead 6 and he didn't get a Round in. 

 

 

What in the world are you smoking?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

So far my Gunners have never contributed to my Survival on this Server.

[Leutnant_Artur]

I can't remember if anyone was talking about balance when LW was winning campaign.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Because the Odds were against LW.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Mainly because the German Team HAS to actively win Maps, while the Russians never have to do more than maintain a Tactical Draw and simply win by Attrition. 

All of the Maps the Germans won, where fought for, 50% of the Russian Wins are simply the Germans running out of Planes. 

[[ZOO]Ckapa6eu]

About a year ago, the red side refused to participate in the war because of the composition of the red aircraft. It was so?

[HR_Tumu]

Hi all.

 

I fly red , and i want to complain about this totally unfair situation.  

 

When i close cockpit , I push a big red button, it says "auto win" and i dont need to do more ... and i think blues do not have this button.

 

Now seriously. , I dont want to say all the blue complains are wrong... because dont will be true.. but i really miss a lot... a little autocriticism on blue side. . 

 

Are lot of conditions to made victory for one of the sides. Planetset, weapons, maps and and the things every one do well and do wrong.

 

Reading last posts, i have to understand reds practically need do nothing for win, ok.

 

What happens with blue team?? u really think are doing the best work with yours tools? u cant improve tactics ? really blues cant take better decisions playing for win maps?? n? Is all ok, y do the best u can do?

 

maybe im wrong, but i think is more easy understand all the complains about how easy is win if u fly red, if i can apreciate some kind of autocriticism  but the thing i see is alway the same, complains and no autocriticism.

 

I think is Imposible improve with out some autocriticism.

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

 

Now seriously. , I dont want to say all the blue complains are wrong... because dont will be true.. but i really miss a lot... a little autocriticism on blue side. . 

 

 

You should read again my friend, there is a lot of criticism from and about LW. I think everyone who regularly flies on LW knows that some goofballs are doing stupid things and that there is room for improvements. This however is not the point when asking for balance (historical or non-historical) instead of asking for Blue favoritism. I for certain wouldn't enjoy a win by a landslide with overwhelming odds. 

[HR_Tumu]

ok Ivy, is very probable i miss something . I recognize it. 

 

good news if you apreciate have some work to do for improve results. In this case, please work on it and maybe lot of complains are out of order.

 

About balance is a imposible mission and for me best option is a totally historical accurate planetset and weapons set.

 

talking with some friends.. we comment TAW can use old ADW system for victory... in old ADW the win team recibes different puntation , dependig of the win conditions. Not the same win capturing all territory than win because enemy lost planes. etc, etc. I think the old ADW sistem are more open and made competition more interesting.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The main imbalance is in the Players and it's the most annoying one. In a Team of 50 Germans, maybe 15 are Mission Oriented and Active. The others are lost most of the time I presume and crash somewhere in the middle of nowhere. 

I hope the Next Campaign includes the A-20 early on then, because I have had it to be honest. I just hope the Russians would organize on the TAW TS a bit more, and would have more English Speakers. 

[Aero*Bohemio]

I've been around, like some of you, since Bellum days (10+ years ago) in our beloved il2 1946 and it has always been the same: the losing side has more complaints than winners; some people always feel their side has it more difficult; etc.

 

The truth about wining an online war is, and has always been, not about planesets, tanks, aaa, etc; but about three main points:

 

1. Big quorum difference
2. Having well organized players who care about map outcome.

3. Achieveing air domination in the most important sectors in order tu fulfill tasks.

 

Some days ago there were only 2 blue players connected -HenHawk and Cutlass- and 10 reds. They were doing more damage than any of us; they were well organized and knew what to do, what was the most important thing at each particular mission. If blue side had more of that, this TAW edition would have been more balanced. Blue side has the resources for achieving air domination, but they don´t use it properly.

BTW, when i watch 8.8cm Flak's video, and i see 4 LW planes lost in a few secons due to general madness and lack of care for their aircraft...well, i think that says a lot.

Edited December 7, 2017 by ECV56_Chimango

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Preach it. 

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Mainly because the German Team HAS to actively win Maps, while the Russians never have to do more than maintain a Tactical Draw and simply win by Attrition. 

All of the Maps the Germans won, where fought for, 50% of the Russian Wins are simply the Germans running out of Planes. 

 

Without disputing the AA difference causing LW default losses with the Stalingrad stalemate, do you recognize the few campaigns the LW won pilots conducted PROPER bombing raids on AFs?

Currently you see 1-3 bomber trickle in without escort. Our frontline airfields have largely been untouched. I'd personally like to see more soft targets on the frontline, like artillery emplacements that could help tank breaktroughts, shipping/bridges across rivers, more infrastructure... tanks arent everything on the battlefield. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Without disputing the AA difference causing LW default losses with the Stalingrad stalemate, do you recognize the few campaigns the LW won pilots conducted PROPER bombing raids on AFs?

Currently you see 1-3 bomber trickle in without escort. Our frontline airfields have largely been untouched. I'd personally like to see more soft targets on the frontline, like artillery emplacements that could help tank breaktroughts, shipping/bridges across rivers, more infrastructure... tanks arent everything on the battlefield. 

 

 

All of the Maps the Germans won, where fought for

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

And most of the Maps the Russians won tactically, they didn't have to. They could mostlly just have waited for the Germans to loose all on their own through sheer disinterest in winning. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Most blue are fighting its own deaf war vs often organized red groups. Outcome is what it should be.

No place for whining, organise or lose.

Edited December 7, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[[ZOO]Ckapa6eu]

For the current campaign, effective tactics are the destruction of airfields. It is possible to restore the airfield only by 30%, and destroy it by 100%. The Reds used this tactic. All my calls to the blue side to go bombing the airfields ended with the answers "We'll cover you."

The blue side of the bomb is the most effective means for victory. There is also a landing to capture airfields, but most chose to destroy enemy tanks and defend their own.

In my subjective opinion, 10% of adequate players are playing for the blue side, which are aimed at winning, the others just went to fly.

Tell me why many players stand on the runway and interfere with other players? Do not you think that a bomb will fall on you and kill your entire aerobatic team?

The Reds have super anti-aircraft installations and they are dangerous, but without risk and no victory. Our group of pilots from Russia deliberately made flights for the destruction of anti-aircraft guns of the enemy so that later the other blue players there began to fly.

Why are you so cowardly?

 

The server administration can say that I completely agree with the proposal 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

 

 

Soviet AT effectiveness is artificially enhanced by Il-2s with VYa AP only Belts 61-K having no Counterpiece on German Side Triangle of Death on Stalingrad Map

 

 

PS. Sorry for my english

[[ZOO]Ckapa6eu]

Its a sickness.

 

 

 

 

Video from =FPS=Cutlass about LW.  facepalm

 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Most blue are fighting its own deaf war vs often organized red groups. Outcome is what it should be.

No place for whining, organise or lose.

I'm trying, but it doesn't work. 

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

And most of the Maps the Russians won tactically, they didn't have to. They could mostlly just have waited for the Germans to loose all on their own through sheer disinterest in winning.

 

That doesn't sound like a map balance issue.

 

That sounds like a hartmann wannabe issue.