Developer Diary, Part 122 - Discussion

[Alkyan]

Finesse ratio can be defined as someone mentioned before as the distance you can glide (horizontal motion) divided by the altitude you lost doing so (vertical). I'm pretty sure as my last flight lesson was about engine failure and it was part of it

If I'm not mistaken it can also be define with the wing dimensions.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Finesse ratio can be defined as someone mentioned before as the distance you can glide (horizontal motion) divided by the altitude you lost doing so (vertical). I'm pretty sure as my last flight lesson was about engine failure and it was part of it

If I'm not mistaken it can also be define with the wing dimensions.

 

 

I tend to disagree and as the DEVs have not defined it, it could mean a lot of things. 

 

Traditionally Finesse ratio is the a length of a large feature divided by a smaller length, such as fuselage to wing span or aerofoil chord to aerofoil thickness. Hence it is traditionally a geometric property. So it could be that the DEVs are just changing the 3D models and it has nothing what so ever to do with the FM.

 

Saying the above a change in the geometric properties of an aircraft will have a change on the drag but i tend to think that this is not what they mean.

 

Lastly it could just be a miscommunication and they do actually mean the glide angle or its just what the Russians refer to as glide angle. I personally have an Aerospace Engineering degree in the UK and have never heard the glide angle or more importantly the Lift to Drag ratio refereed to as Finesse ratio.

 

 

Basically I think a lot of people have just taken this to to be about the drag because they want it changed and I dont want people to get there hopes up. Hence it would be really good if the DEVs could actually give a clear definition of what they actually mean.

[mort]

I tend to disagree and as the DEVs have not defined it, it could mean a lot of things. 

 

Traditionally Finesse ratio is the a length of a large feature divided by a smaller length, such as fuselage to wing span or aerofoil chord to aerofoil thickness. Hence it is traditionally a geometric property. So it could be that the DEVs are just changing the 3D models and it has nothing what so ever to do with the FM.

 

"Fineness ratios of all planes were re-checked with their flaps extended."

 

Do you really think they are changing the fuselage to wing span ratio or any other prominent geometry size ratios based on flap extension? 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It's a strange term indeed but being mentioned along with flaps, extended and decreased I think glide ratio is a giid bet.

 

In german documents the "glide ratio" is referred to as "Gleitzahl" or glide number. It's usually higher for streamlined aircraft with high wing loading but it's pretty much depending on airspeed.

 

That said I consider the 109 in BoS a quite good glider. The Stuka is also suprisingly effective with only ~5m/s sinkrate at 250km/h IAS.

[Phantom-103]

 MOSCOW  

[-TBC-AeroAce]

"Fineness ratios of all planes were re-checked with their flaps extended."

 

Do you really think they are changing the fuselage to wing span ratio or any other prominent geometry size ratios based on flap extension?

Yeah logically I agree with you it will most likely be this, I was just trying to show that it could be a couple of things and was building a case that of slight confusion to the Devs in the hope they would clarify.

 

Is that ok?

Edited February 11, 2016 by [TBC]AeroACE

[Sokol1]

This "Fineness" is probable Rustran issue, GT translate what as posted in Russian forum as:

 

12. In all airplanes rechecked the aerodynamic properties of the wing with flaps / landing flaps, the properties of a released flaps has been corrected (reduced) for aircraft LaGG-3 series 29, La-5 series 8, Yak-69 series 1, IL-2 Model 1941 year, the IL-2 model 1942, P-40E-1 (on the remaining aircraft the influence of flaps / landing flaps on the wing properties is all right);

Edited February 11, 2016 by Sokol1

[-TBC-AeroAce]

There we go sweet Sokol1

 

 

I still think its like getting blood out of a stone sometimes when asking DEVs for an explanation but I understand they can't answer everything and I'm very grateful for there generally excellent communication.

 

Bring on Moscow!!!! Wooooop

Edited February 11, 2016 by [TBC]AeroACE

[pilotpierre]

Bring it on folks, looking better and better. Moscow looks impressive.

[HippyDruid]

 

 

IL-2 sight can be moved back and forth using Lalt-F command.

YES! I like it alot!

 

Moscow looks nice, I'm looking forward to flying on the new map.

 

Thanks,

  

[Jizzo]

Great stuff! 

[SCG_Tzigy]

my 2 cents with my limited Russian and aerodynamics knowledge... this is the sentence on the Russian forum: На всех самолетах перепроверено аэродинамическое качество крыла с выпущенными закрылками / посадочными щитками, качество с выпущенными щитками было исправлено (уменьшено) для самолетов ЛаГГ-3 серия 29, Ла-5 серия 8, Як-1 серия 69, Ил-2 модель 1941 года, Ил-2 модель 1942 года, P-40E-1 (на остальных самолетах с влиянием выпуска закрылков / щитков на качество крыла все в порядке);

 

translating from Russian, the technical term  качество крыла:   

 

(from: http://aerochayka.com/teoria/112-prakticheskaya-aerodinamika/145-aerodinamicheskoe-kachestvo-kryla)

 

from Google translator:

 

"The aerodynamic quality of the wing is the ratio of lift to the power wing windshield resistance at this angle of attack"

 

where Y - the lift, kg; Q - the drag force

 

 

Which in English is simply L/D ratio....lift/drag ratio

Edited February 12, 2016 by AW_Tzigy

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I have no idea about the above.

 

But I do know that aerodynamics are often misunderstood

 

I'm an Aerodynamics Masters and will give u this to think about!

 

 

The elliptic wing of the spitfire that made it superior was a mistake!!???????

 

The only reason to make it

[Danziger]

10. Light reflection and relief detail improved on thin metal parts of IL-2 model 1941, IL-2 model 1942, I-16 type 24, MiG-3 series 24, Pe-2 series 35, Pe-2 series 87, LaGG-3 series 29, La-5 series 8, P-40E-1, Ju 87 D-3, Bf 110 E-2 and MC.202 series VIII

 

I'm very interested in this. I wonder what exactly does he mean. Maybe the metal skin on metal parts of aircraft? I noticed the bare metal parts where the paint is worn off on the wing roots of the Il-2 1941 looks a lot more like shiny metal than previous planes.

[I.JG420Felix]

Really love the work and I don't mean to sound bitchy, but i would rather the clouds of RoF than what is currently in IL2. I think a compromise between the two would look good. 

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

ok ok ok I'll bite! what does it all mean!!!!!! AHHHHHHHH drive me crazy with your damn idiosyncrasy!!!  means you guys are crazy, its a game, not real life, and a friend told me try to do that in a commercial flight sim!!! its got more bugs than this game!!!

 

 

oh by the way Hans, good write up!! 

Edited February 12, 2016 by 71st_Mastiff

[SOLIDKREATE]

Look at all those tasty bridges for my 110 to eat.

[Boomerang]

 Thank you ​

[Alkyan]

I have no idea about the above.

 

But I do know that aerodynamics are often misunderstood

 

I'm an Aerodynamics Masters and will give u this to think about!

 

 

The elliptic wing of the spitfire that made it superior was a mistake!!???????

 

The only reason to make it

Eliptic wings give a theoretical lift advantage as it reduces undesired turbulence.

However the advantage was so small that it could not really be observed and elliptic wings ended up just being a nightmare for engineers in charge of the production. I don't think it made the spitfire superior (superior in beauty?). But if you do the Maths it's there

 

I'm pretty confident it mean they changed the drag of flaps. Finesse ratio is part of the basic aerodynamic engineer vocabulary, I don't think they would missuse it

Edited February 12, 2016 by Alkyan

[kendo]

Really love the work and I don't mean to sound bitchy, but i would rather the clouds of RoF than what is currently in IL2. I think a compromise between the two would look good. 

 

Can't really agree. Overall I feel the BOS clouds are better. Not perfect, but there are elements of the ROF clouds that i really dislike - they can look a little like something from a Walt Disney film at times.

 

Sorry for off-topic

Edited February 12, 2016 by kendo

[Chief_Mouser]

Looking really nice!   There are some interesting features on the Moscow map for sure, plus the impressive view of the city.

What is stop us flying over the city? An invisible force-field? Ignore the warnings and you go boom?

Cheers.

[Kling]

What happened to the FM changes?

Read in the previous update that 109F and 109G will recieve more accurate calculations, based on 109E calculations, that will make them behave more like 109E(I guess they will wobble less)?

[Feathered_IV]

I think it will probably be the same as when you go over the edge of the current maps. A sign pops up and says "wrong way tovarich" and turns you back again.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Kling, DD120 is a list of things they are working on, so it will come in other updates

[senseispcc]

The "profile" of the wing was also a great factor to the success of the Spitfire but also made the wing so fine it at to be elliptical to make space for the guns!

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by senseispcc

[303_Kwiatek]

Eliptic wings or rather tips effect less induced drag which is important at high angle of attack situations e.x. turns. Also wing wash help during high aoa inreasing lateral control before stall occurs. Thats why spitfire wing was good in turns situations plus rather low wingloading comparing to other fighters

Edited February 12, 2016 by 303_Kwiatek

[Guest deleted@13284]

Will there be any improvements to the mouse control or is what we have now all we're going to get?

[FlyingNutcase]

There seems to be a lack of lawn-mowing in some of those town screenies, but maybe everyone was too busy with, like, the war and all.

 

These updates come through on  a Saturday morning in this part of the world and it always makes a great start to the weekend. Thanks Han & Co. 

[Riderocket]

I was about to post one of those beautiful girls, but last time it wasn't very well accepted :-/

 

I believe they mean this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fineness_ratio

Cool.. So a good wing Fineness Ratio for less drag should be around 2.56

[Blooddawn1942]

The new map looks indeed very promising.

I like the idea that we won't have to wait very long to finally get it, at least for the qmb.

[FokkerH]

look good, but a ghost town, no life, no cars....!!!. I hope that anytime, moscow, stalingrad have life.

 

 

Regards,

[Trooper117]

Put that kind of life into the game and it will probably grind to a halt unfortunately...

[Uufflakke]

look good, but a ghost town, no life, no cars....!!!. I hope that anytime, moscow, stalingrad have life.

 

 

Regards,

 

Remember that during the daily bombardments en fighting troops everywhere in Stalingrad there was no much enthousiasm to walk on the streets or drive the car from A to B.

Besides that many citizens left the city.

On the other hand adding piles of debris in and around the buildings of Stalingrad it would make the city look less empty or cleaned up.

And perhaps here and there car wrecks, trucks or burnt out buses to simulate that there has been human activity.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Eliptic wings give a theoretical lift advantage as it reduces undesired turbulence.

However the advantage was so small that it could not really be observed and elliptic wings ended up just being a nightmare for engineers in charge of the production. I don't think it made the spitfire superior (superior in beauty?). But if you do the Maths it's there

 

I'm pretty confident it mean they changed the drag of flaps. Finesse ratio is part of the basic aerodynamic engineer vocabulary, I don't think they would missuse it

The spit only got an elliptical wing to accommodate the armament(it was a fluke). The benefits on an elliptic wing are a result of Prantal whom first came up with the lifting line theory that dictated an elliptical wing is the most effective at reducing lift depending drag!!

In reality aerodynamics took a back seat to power in ww2(in this case)

Edited February 18, 2016 by AeroACE