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II./JG77_Manu*

[FNBF] Suggestion for a better communication

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In my days in the JG77, the most potent fighter squadron in old 1946s SeoW campaigns, i have learned one thing. Success in aerial combat doesn't rely on some overly skilled "alien" fighter pilots, but on good communication and situational awareness. 

Now i think we (Axis) all agree, that something like the 111 slaughter on Friday should never happen again. I know, that there are emergency situations, where the escort can't stay in position, and has to escape away from it's duties. But in such a case, there should immediately be backup around. All the action in the FNBF is in a rather small area, it shouldn't be a problem to take over those duties within a few minutes. But a good communication is key.

Right now there are a lot of pairs, especially regarding the fighters, and communication apart from some whispers from people who know each other from other sessions, is more or less non-existent. 

Now my suggestion is, we change our current com-system a little.

System works as follows:

Everyone from one side is in the same main channel. Everyone sets whispers to his flight/wing, instead of going into a different channel. 95% of the communication happens in the respective whispers channels, so no one else can hear it, same like it is now. But if someone realizes something important, like enemy positions, enemy aircraft or help is needed, he speaks in the main channel, so anyone of the team can hear it. Without any exception, anyone benefits from such communication. Fighters go were they are needed, ground attackers or bombers learn, what areas to avoid to not run into enemy fighter groups, etc. The situational awareness of the whole battlefield becomes hugely improved.

I am pretty sure, with such a system, most of our 111s would have survived the last mission. If the 109s would have called for backup in the very moment, they realized that they need backup, and can't fulfill their escort duties anymore, there would have been loads of fighters around, to take over. If the 111s would have cried for help as soon as they saw enemy fighters engaging, there would have been help around within a very short time, i am pretty sure. 

When i saw in the chat, xxx killed bomber DBS.., i immediately realized what is up. In this moment, i was flying home damaged after a ground attack mission, but i immediately watched out for the bombers, where they could be..when i eventually found them, i tried to climb up to them, just to maybe destract some fighters, but i came to late. Didn't get sufficient altitude with my damaged E7. If i'd known what is up a little earlier, i definitely could have helped them. And all the 109Fs around, they surely would have been around even sooner.

When flying a SeoW mission, i pretty much know the situation all over the battlefield, where are enemies, which alt, who is in trouble, etc. 

Compared to that, i felt pretty much "blind" so far, in the FNBFs.

I think you all get the picture.

With the system i explained above, this could easily be achievied.

 

The Russians of course are not allowed to use that communication, because most of them didn't have radios at that time....

 

 

just kidding ;)

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Sounds like a very good idea to me. Russians of next friday - shall we give it a try :)

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Manu,

The 111 slaughter on Friday occurred for a number of reasons.

Firstly we were short of 2 F4 pilots from the start, they didn't show. (as I know them i'm sure they had a good reason)

We only assigned 2 F4's to bomber escort, agreed by ALL the F4 pilots before we took off, and by the way we were all on comms on whisper channels.

The 2 escorts fighters were lured away by 2 VVS fighters whilst unbeknown to them the rest of the VVS (4 or 6?) engaged the bombers (out of draw distance I may add!)

By the time we had disengaged to assist the bombers it was all over!  The only other fighter we saw (as one had collided with a fighter ) was when we chased 2 PE2's, my wingman hit one hard enough that some time later he got a confirmed 'destroyed' message.

So there wouldn't have been 'loads of fighters' as we didn't have loads of fighters!!  And even when we and the bombers did call for help (not so easy when you're engaged) it was pretty much over very quickly.

The only way to have prevented this would have been to assign ALL the F4's (6 of them) to bomber escort. Which would have left the 110's without escort, and it may have been them instead of the 111's that were hit.

The system you mention would have made no difference at all.

It was a calculated risk agreed by ALL the F4 pilots before we even started our engines that didn't pay off. Nobodies fault, just the way it turned out.

But feel free to volunteer for escort duties in the future my good man!

 

:salute:

 

No escort should be able to be "lured away" from their escort duties. Don't take it personal mate, but the duty of an escort is not, to shoot down any fighter who engages the bombers, but to protect the bombers at all costs. I know, that a fighter pilot likes to have kills, but as soon as attacking planes disengage from the bombers, the escorts should let them go, and retake their protecting position for the bombers. This "a few fighters to lure the escort away, the rest to farm the bombers" tactic is like a 100 years old (it actually is..1916..) first mistake.

I saw on Vade's and also in Zeebra's video, that they were around at the same spot, but they "didn't know that the 111s are unescorted". They just dove after some fighters, and didn't care about the 111s as well. So whispers apparently didn't work after all. It should have been crystal clear for them, that the bombers are unescorted right now. Clear communication lapse. Second mistake. And what about the other 2 109s? Didn't you tell them that they are needed? Apparently communication there didn't work, too.

It wasn't over so fast..when i read the first bomber beeing shot down, i definitely arrived some 10 minutes later at the scene, and still saw the end.

To the "110 escort". We didn't have any. I (in an E7) was pretty much the only escort they had, using boms as well. Here and there the other E7 was around, but not much. We luckily didn't need any escort, we could hold our own alone. If we had needed any escort, we would have been crushed, same like the 111s.

The system would have made a huge difference. The other 109s (including me) would have known what's up. They clearly didn't. Even i would have found the 111s in time. 

Don't take it personal mate, but that's just some constructive criticism, and i stand for every word i wrote there. No big deal, mistakes happen. Suck it up, and move on.

 

But the communication system i explained above would make a huge difference regardless. Believe me, i know it. I fly SeoW every Sunday. It makes leaps and bounds. Situational awareness is on a completely different level. 

Yeah, i thought about making escort, to be honest. I didn't fly the 110 at all (in any way) so far, so i wanted to take this bird at least one time. But next week, be sure, i will be the first to volunteer for escort duty. 

Hoping that the enhanced communication system i explained will work by the next mission.

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From a 3rd person's point of view, I agree with Manu. Even if we ignore the communication lapse, the confusion, the element that couldn't make it and the good intentions Vade and Zebra surely had as described in the main thread, they were flying escort after all.

 

Once the first intercept MiGs showed up the procedure should have been to strictly make them give up the shot or at best shoot them down in the vicinity of the formation, then climb back up and get ready to repeal them should they come again and prepare to engage possible additional enemy assets. Flying close escort was always considered a pain in the ass historically, it requires a lot of discipline and coordination. The MiGs only capitalised on this using one of the most common tactics used back in the day - send a pair to draw the escorts away then hammer them with the rest of the squadron.

 

Of course, mistakes happen and should be expected when you have a large group of pilots from different backgrounds and experience levels working together, and that's fine. However, the great advantage of Manu's comms system and discipline is that once a common mistake like this happens, the consequences will not be as drastic.

 

However disastrous the sortie was, at least it's good to see the pilots involved are learning from the experience. :)

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No escort should be able to be "lured away" from their escort duties. Don't take it personal mate, but the duty of an escort is not, to shoot down any fighter who engages the bombers, but to protect the bombers at all costs. I know, that a fighter pilot likes to have kills, but as soon as attacking planes disengage from the bombers, the escorts should let them go, and retake their protecting position for the bombers. This "a few fighters to lure the escort away, the rest to farm the bombers" tactic is like a 100 years old (it actually is..1916..) first mistake.

I saw on Vade's and also in Zeebra's video, that they were around at the same spot, but they "didn't know that the 111s are unescorted". They just dove after some fighters, and didn't care about the 111s as well. So whispers apparently didn't work after all. It should have been crystal clear for them, that the bombers are unescorted right now. Clear communication lapse. Second mistake. And what about the other 2 109s? Didn't you tell them that they are needed? Apparently communication there didn't work, too.

It wasn't over so fast..when i read the first bomber beeing shot down, i definitely arrived some 10 minutes later at the scene, and still saw the end.

To the "110 escort". We didn't have any. I (in an E7) was pretty much the only escort they had, using boms as well. Here and there the other E7 was around, but not much. We luckily didn't need any escort, we could hold our own alone. If we had needed any escort, we would have been crushed, same like the 111s.

The system would have made a huge difference. The other 109s (including me) would have known what's up. They clearly didn't. Even i would have found the 111s in time. 

Don't take it personal mate, but that's just some constructive criticism, and i stand for every word i wrote there. No big deal, mistakes happen. Suck it up, and move on.

 

But the communication system i explained above would make a huge difference regardless. Believe me, i know it. I fly SeoW every Sunday. It makes leaps and bounds. Situational awareness is on a completely different level. 

Yeah, i thought about making escort, to be honest. I didn't fly the 110 at all (in any way) so far, so i wanted to take this bird at least one time. But next week, be sure, i will be the first to volunteer for escort duty. 

Hoping that the enhanced communication system i explained will work by the next mission.

We engaged the enemy fighters knowing we were heavily outnumbered. we only stood a chance by screening and fending them off at a distance. Fighters are not supposed to get shoot down instead of the bombers either. As you saw in my video, we went towards the bombers and only parted when we were under attack ourselves.... There was nothing to be done. I find it very daring to judge someones decisions or performance without having a clear picture of the situation or even being part of it. Afterwards everything always seems so easy and obvious. Anyways, i don't see why we should blame each other now, there's is no point in that. We all did what we saw fit at that time and it didn't work out. Could've hit the 110's but it didn't. Could have missed the 111's but it didn't. That's part of the game. About your global channel idea: I don't think it's gonna improve anything. The different flights are already in contact and the crucial informations get around. If anything, if 3 different flights shout at each other when engaged people will be just as confused or even more so.

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We engaged the enemy fighters knowing we were heavily outnumbered. we only stood a chance by screening and fending them off at a distance. Fighters are not supposed to get shoot down instead of the bombers either. As you saw in my video, we went towards the bombers and only parted when we were under attack ourselves.... There was nothing to be done. I find it very daring to judge someones decisions or performance without having a clear picture of the situation or even being part of it. Afterwards everything always seems so easy and obvious. Anyways, i don't see why we should blame each other now, there's is no point in that. We all did what we saw fit at that time and it didn't work out. Could've hit the 110's but it didn't. Could have missed the 111's but it didn't. That's part of the game. About your global channel idea: I don't think it's gonna improve anything. The different flights are already in contact and the crucial informations get around. If anything, if 3 different flights shout at each other when engaged people will be just as confused or even more so.

 

 

You dove down after some fighters (not the other way round), who have been very low, leaving the bombers without any protection. Sorry, but your videos draw a clear picture about that. You haven't been endangered being shot down in those situations either. Of course it is risky, to stay close to the bombers, and it somewhat exposes you, but that's the deal being an escort. Just flying "safe" Hartmann-style, only attacking from a hugely advantageous position works perfectly in free hunt - but when doing escort duty, that's a tad selfish.I have a pretty clear picture of the situation. Schuck's comment about them following the other fighters..+ your videos..draws a pretty clear picture. I don't wanna blame anyone here. A few mistakes happened. 

Sorry, but when a whole formation of 8 bombers gets farmed, without having any protection what so ever, i find it a little ignorant to claim that "no mistakes happened, just bad luck".  

I don't wanna attack anybody here, and it's nothing personal. I just wanna improve things. And there are facts. Mistakes happened, crystal clear!

Only thing i mention this, is to improve things. Not to blame anyone. When things like this happen, one have to take measures, that something doesn't happen again. Analyse the situation, and see what can be done better. I wrote about it, i explained any point. It's a tad arrogant, to dismiss all of this. 

And my global channel improves a lot. I fly this way every week, i think every successful squadron flies this way, there is no better way to communicate. The contact between the flights is nowhere near enough. Clearly visible in the fact, that you didn't know that the bombers have been unprotected. 

No one shouts at each other in the main channel when engaged ..that's absolute nonsense. One quick informative note in the main channel like number, altitude, typ of enemies, help or no help needed, that's it. The screaming all happens in the whisper channels. There will barely be someone talking in the main channel. 

 

Like i said, i don't write this, because i wanna blame anyone. As Lucas already sad, one just have to take measures, that something disastrous doesn't happen again. Your all ignorance towards your own mistakes doesn't make this eas(ier).

I really understand why noone wants to fly the vulnerable German 87s, and (apart from the Dbs guys) the 111s. 

I understand that every fighter pilots wants to have fun, and shoot down a lot of enemies. But the bomber guys also wanna have fun, and that's only possible with un-selfish escort cover. 

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Exactly.

 

And we've had main comms with multiple people before and it gets very messy very quickly; people end up talking over each other even with the best intentions, not to mention if anyone uses the 'sneeze or fart to talk' option for comms instead of 'push to talk'.

Main channel to push-to-talk has to be a must, there is no way around it! Anyone who doesn't obey to this rule can be muted any second. Just a clear message to everyone that the main channel is strictly for important information, that's it. A call every few minutes from someone should be the rule, nothing else.

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You dove down after some fighters (not the other way round), who have been very low, leaving the bombers without any protection. Sorry, but your videos draw a clear picture about that. You haven't been endangered being shot down in those situations either. Of course it is risky, to stay close to the bombers, and it somewhat exposes you, but that's the deal being an escort. Just flying "safe" Hartmann-style, only attacking from a hugely advantageous position works perfectly in free hunt - but when doing escort duty, that's a tad selfish.I have a pretty clear picture of the situation. Schuck's comment about them following the other fighters..+ your videos..draws a pretty clear picture. I don't wanna blame anyone here. A few mistakes happened. 

Sorry, but when a whole formation of 8 bombers gets farmed, without having any protection what so ever, i find it a little ignorant to claim that "no mistakes happened, just bad luck".  

I don't wanna attack anybody here, and it's nothing personal. I just wanna improve things. And there are facts. Mistakes happened, crystal clear!

Only thing i mention this, is to improve things. Not to blame anyone. When things like this happen, one have to take measures, that something doesn't happen again. Analyse the situation, and see what can be done better. I wrote about it, i explained any point. It's a tad arrogant, to dismiss all of this. 

And my global channel improves a lot. I fly this way every week, i think every successful squadron flies this way, there is no better way to communicate. The contact between the flights is nowhere near enough. Clearly visible in the fact, that you didn't know that the bombers have been unprotected. 

No one shouts at each other in the main channel when engaged ..that's absolute nonsense. One quick informative note in the main channel like number, altitude, typ of enemies, help or no help needed, that's it. The screaming all happens in the whisper channels. There will barely be someone talking in the main channel. 

 

Like i said, i don't write this, because i wanna blame anyone. As Lucas already sad, one just have to take measures, that something disastrous doesn't happen again. Your all ignorance towards your own mistakes doesn't make this eas(ier).

I really understand why noone wants to fly the vulnerable German 87s, and (apart from the Dbs guys) the 111s. 

I understand that every fighter pilots wants to have fun, and shoot down a lot of enemies. But the bomber guys also wanna have fun, and that's only possible with un-selfish escort cover. 

I helped my Wingman and good friend, yes. He was the only one around to help the 111s beside me, and just loosing him like that would be stupid. Just to make it clear: i was not assigned to anything, i told the others my flight would patrol the cap-zone - we did exactly that. Jg5 was left with the unloved child that is "escort". You have to agree, that an escort with 2 people is something you would struggle with as well? Also if you want to blame someone, please just do so. You already mentioned our names, so why go defensive and pretend not to. If you want to discuss "the problem" in further detail, i suggest we do so on TS, it should be alot easier. (We are both german, we'll get to the point fairly quickly, im sure  ;) )

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I helped my Wingman and good friend, yes. He was the only one around to help the 111s beside me, and just loosing him like that would be stupid. Just to make it clear: i was not assigned to anything, i told the others my flight would patrol the cap-zone - we did exactly that. Jg5 was left with the unloved child that is "escort". You have to agree, that an escort with 2 people is something you would struggle with as well? Also if you want to blame someone, please just do so. You already mentioned our names, so why go defensive and pretend not to. If you want to discuss "the problem" in further detail, i suggest we do so on TS, it should be alot easier. (We are both german, we'll get to the point fairly quickly, im sure  ;) )

 

Frankly, i didn't blame you at all. If what Zeebra said is true, that you didn't know that the 111s are unprotected, then there is no fault on your side what so ever. But if that is true, what i highly believe, then it's also a clear indication that communication wasn't good enough. Did i blame you before in any way? No? If it came over this way, i apologize. The only thing i really critizised was the communication in general. I think you can't argue with that. That's why i came up with a possible solution. Of course we can talk about that in German as well, then i can explain you more sophisticated, what i meant. 

 

So what you're saying Manu, is Myself and Chief are to blame for trying to repel the Migs,

Zeebra and Vade are to blame for attacking the fighters and Steiner and Savage were to blame for just not being there?

By the way Lucas, Vade and Zeebra were not on 111 escort duties, that was decided before hand to just be 2 of us.

Constructive criticism?, I don't find it particularly constructive. Just judging people by viewing videos of an action you weren't even involved in.

Our main aim is to stay alive, being shot down and killed would have ended the game for us (not to mention our own DED) and left the remaining hour of the game with even less fighters in game.

Myself and Chief's , situational awareness and use of comms is just fine thanks, our record of 62 FNBF flights without loss speaks for its self!

I've also flown with the JG52 Guys and Vade on comms, and found them extremely competent in every aspect.

 

Yes, you are. You should at least have told the other 109s, that you leave your escort duty. If there would be more escorts, one or two can well follow enemy fighters. But surely not, when there are only two.

I don't blame the other guys at all - i blame the general communication system, i blame that the other 4(!) 109s didn't know what's going on, so they weren't there to help. 62FNBF without a loss only tells the story, that you are flying safely, avoiding any dangerous situation. In free hunt that can be good, in an escort duty that is selfish. Your "no losses" isn't worth anything, when all the the 111s, who do the only real damage to the enemy, you have been assigned to escort get shot down. Rather 1 109 going down, then 8 111s. But that's exactly the attitude i was speaking about. Only care about the own live, not to die, and not so much about the others...in Nazi Germany fighters who only flew safely and didn't do their escort duty came towards the court martial in certain circumstances. 

I don't blame you for leaving the bombers, stuff like this happened countless times in WW2. The main mistake was, that noone apart from you knew what's going on.

 

If i'd be a bomber pilot, and choose my escort between an ace pilot, who never had a loss in hundreds of flights, and between a moderate pilot, who was shot down countless times when throwing himself towards enemies attacking my bomber formation, i'd take the second one all day, and i'd say the second one is worth more for the "greater cause".

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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I helped my Wingman and good friend, yes. He was the only one around to help the 111s beside me, and just loosing him like that would be stupid. Just to make it clear: i was not assigned to anything, i told the others my flight would patrol the cap-zone - we did exactly that. Jg5 was left with the unloved child that is "escort". You have to agree, that an escort with 2 people is something you would struggle with as well? Also if you want to blame someone, please just do so. You already mentioned our names, so why go defensive and pretend not to. If you want to discuss "the problem" in further detail, i suggest we do so on TS, it should be alot easier. (We are both german, we'll get to the point fairly quickly, im sure  ;) )

What i don't understand is where was the 111 escort anyway?

As i was part of the Mig Wing who attack the 111's, i don't really understand that there was no escort for ages at all.

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Gosh, did you even read what i just wrote? My main point of criticism? Or are you only trying to justify anything towards you, that could show you in a bad light. 

 

 

If the 109s would have called for backup in the very moment, they realized that they need backup, and can't fulfill their escort duties anymore, there would have been loads of fighters around, to take over.

 

So whispers apparently didn't work after all. It should have been crystal clear for them, that the bombers are unescorted right now. Clear communication lapse

 

And what about the other 2 109s? Didn't you tell them that they are needed? Apparently communication there didn't work, too.

 

But if that is true, what i highly believe, then it's also a clear indication that communication wasn't good enough.

 

I don't blame the other guys at all - i blame the general communication system, i blame that the other 4(!) 109s didn't know what's going on, so they weren't there to help.

 

I don't blame you for leaving the bombers, stuff like this happened countless times in WW2. The main mistake was, that noone apart from you knew what's going on.

 

i can't make it any more clear!!!!! 

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Oh my freaking god.

 

We didn't 'leave' the bombers we nosed on to some who were attacking to try and get them to disengage, we didn't go off on a jolly trip trying to stroke our egos with a kill.

 

The fighters had come in at a good moment from the other side of the bombers as we patrolled just above and around them but were on the far side of the bombers at that point.

 

We headed over as soon as we saw them, Schuck going in and I was watching looking to follow; still above the bombers, no diving down away from them.

 

As Schuck went in the fighters made hits on some bombers, and I saw what looked like 109s chasing down on them. I stayed high and now saw 2, maybe 3 more enemy fighters (we knew they were not friendly) coming in at a higher altitude so I tried to get in amongst them to put them off. They went past at speed and I believe attacked the bombers doing more damage.

 

By the time I had turned round I saw smoking bombers heading in different directions, we tried to follow two who seemd to be still in formation. Personally I had lost sight of the bandits and yep, could have done better there.

 

After this frankly devastating and quick attack (good on you VVS), my jaw dropped when the VVS pilots were given a second life?!

 

 

 

This is supposed to be about fun, not acting like the world has ended due to those pesky other people spoiling your godlike existence and so firing pompous accusations around about them.

 

We were there, I think I waved at you as I went past, but then you engaged a cloaking device.

Ah okies, yeah i had one 109 for a blink moment behind me but that was when all was pretty much done already.

Edited by Jizzo

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Hey gents the topic is starting to deteriorate from a discussion in tactics/communication. Let's get back on tract please.

 

Frankly I think having a localized channel with the individual flights having a designated whisper channel themselves could be a advantageous.

We at [DBS] usually have a designated (Bomber Commander) who is in charge of communications (Whispers) with all the separate flights. So being able to give a quick heads-up to all with just 1 whisper might be a good solution. Something to explore at the very least.

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Hey gents the topic is starting to deteriorate from a discussion in tactics/communication. Let's get back on tract please.

 

Frankly I think having a localized channel with the individual flights having a designated whisper channel themselves could be a advantageous.

We at [DBS] usually have a designated (Bomber Commander) who is in charge of communications (Whispers) with all the separate flights. So being able to give a quick heads-up to all with just 1 whisper might be a good solution. Something to explore at the very least.

 

Of course you can mix it up, go into seperate channels, and put everyone on your side (around 30 people) into the whispers - wouldn't make any difference to the above suggested, in the end it's two buttons you got, one for your flight, and one for the whole team. Just a lot more work (putting all those people into the list each on his own). Other way round, you only have to put in like 1-4 people.

I suggest we give it a go on Friday :) so everybody can experience, what a big difference it can make

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the only sensible thing to do is split up flights into seperate channels. i don't want to push a button every single time i talk to my wingman just so i can shout out to the rest of the team the one time i get jumped by a Yak. 

Edited by I./JG3_Asgar
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the only sensible thing to do is split up flights into seperate channels. i don't want to push a button every single time i talk to my wingman just so i can shout out to the rest of the team the one time i get jumped by a Yak. 

so you don't use push to talk normally? okay..i thought that is common procedure. In our squad you are not allowed to use "voice-recognition" during the campaign. A lot of sounds come through, that don't belong there. I mean after all, the pilots back then also had their radio button  :P

 

But ok, i see a lot of people are against that idea, for whatever reasons. Same procedure "without having to push a button" would be to just put anybody of your side in the whisper list, not only the odd fighter wing leader. I am pretty sure, that anybody wants to know valuable information, and it's also faster to let anyone know directly, then tell some flight leaders, who themselves have to tell it their wing/flight (takes double the time). I'll definitely do that in the next flight. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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only if you don't know how to configure your Teamspeak

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I see a some misconceptions here and let me set this straight:

 

Contrary to a real war and army, online gaming is supposed to be fun and has no central comand structure that assigns duties and can send people to their death if deemed necessary.

 

That simly means that if you come in with a large group of people who have chosen to fly a joint bomber formation for their fun, you cannot expect the rest of the team to automatically adapt to your needs, as their choice of things to do may be anything but what you think they´ll must do. If people coop with you, like the JG5 guys flying along, that is a nice addition and very friendly behaviour but other then in a war it is no "duty" where you can expect people to sacrifice them for you. I know that, because I have flown almost only "workhorse" planes on the RoF servers for years.

And you need to be aware that having a large bomber formation in a more fighter oriented game automatically means that your side is going to be short of fighters.. if the other team doesn´t do the same or more. Don´t get me wrong, I think it is supercool that people do that, I was severely impressed when I saw that formation.. but if it gets to centralized battle, it is not going to look good for the bomber formation.. that is simply known beforehand and the only influencing factors a bomber gamer has is a) to secure tons and tons of cooperation beforehand, re-evalute and comunicate agreements flight and B) having a flight plan that takes into account these factors.. ie: trying to not meet the enemy at all. In RoF some of the excellent Gotha and HP400 pilots spend literally hours climbing and having routes that minimized exposure all in a game environment that does not reward this behaviour, as on the small maps fast fighterbomber on the deck makes the trip 3 times in the same time.. and thus gets more action and score. Online gaming does not favour bombers, simply for the fact that super-longrange missions where fuel&range is a limit to the degree that you actually need such large craft are extremly rare.. 4hrs to target and then someone has a bad day and collides into you, ony the very few players do that. If you fly bombers in an online game and spent much time at accessible altitudes in a cluster-area you will have a high chance of damage, that is basically the bottomline you need to realize.

 

In the light of this, blaming JG5 is really pointless and bad sportsmanship... they really did what they could and with the numbers of attackers on the bombers no behaviour on their side would have made any difference... mind you: if I got that correctly, 5 enemy planes (by JG5 and by Vade&me) where allready engaged when 4 more came in on the bombers.. So even if they´d just driven of their pray 10x quicker an would have been there, they would have faced 6 (the 2 driven away ones + 4 new) vs 2 odds without even accounting that things with Vade&me vs another 3 could additionally easy have gone south, also, too. I can safely say the vulnerable heinkels would not have looked ANY better there. If anyone thinks he or she can do it better, then the challenge is yours to take.

 

If you want someone to blame, blame me.. all the things I said on the forums and in the video are ONLY related to my oppinon, view and situation perception. It was my first online mission and I did not prepare much nor did I knew much. I concentrated on beeing a good wingman and I didn´t even know how much bombers or escorts we had.. so at the time I made the video, I didn´t even know how that JG5 was engaged nor where they really where exactly... as I had only coms with my flighlead, Vade. I did not know the flightplan of the bombers and when I met them by chance, it was entirely MY misconception that I thought we had more escorts buzzing around somewhere there... when in fact we didn´t even had much more fighters in total. So you can rightfully blame me for that..

 

And I think that is a very efficent way of organizing coms: having your flight on one channel and an information exchange wisper channel for all flightleaders. simple as that. Jolly gosh, in RoF we didn´t even have those teamspeak-radios and managed to fly together very well.. I would not want an all-can-talk-sidechannel, ever. 

 

 

Also: I bet the otherside had fun doing that intercept and since that is the purpose of a game, the whole thing is no desaster but just that: part of the game.. so don´t take this all too serious and enjoy it more. I as long as it is not all the time, getting shot down is supposed to be part of the fun, enjoy it, you got a respawn button! ;=)

Edited by Dr_Zeebra
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Sorry, but i couldn't disagree any more with this statement. 

 

 

 

online gaming is supposed to be fun and has no central comand structure that assigns duties

 the most immersive online gaming you will see, no matter if in Arma3, a WW2 simulator, DCS or Falcon BMS works exactly this way. It has a clear chain of command, everyone has it's duties, and all together this is becoming a large realistic battlefield.

 

 

if you come in with a large group of people who have chosen to fly a joint bomber formation for their fun, you cannot expect the rest of the team to automatically adapt to your needs,

Of course you can. The bombers are the most valuable asset on the battlefield, they should be protected at all costs.

 

If people coop with you, like the JG5 guys flying along, that is a nice addition and very friendly behaviour but other then in a war it is no "duty" where you can expect people to sacrifice them for you.

In an open dogfight server like Wings of Liberty this might be true. But in a coop based system, like Tips created, or like the SeoW in 1946, SoW in Cliffs of Dover etc, where it's about immersion, and proper realistic gameplay, this is not "very friendly behaviour". It should be absolutely taken for granted. If someone only wants to go on free hunt, shooting as much enemy planes down as possible, he can well go into a dogfight server like WoL, where everyone does this. In a coop/dynamic campaign based systen like the FNBF it's about coop, teamplay, reanacting real warfare.

 

And you need to be aware that having a large bomber formation in a more fighter oriented game automatically means that your side is going to be short of fighters.. if the other team doesn´t do the same or more

Because of exactly that, there are online campaigns like the FNBF, SeoW, SoW, Falcon online etc. Fixed plane sets with a well balanced amout of fighters and bombers per team.

 

 

think it is supercool that people do that, I was severely impressed when I saw that formation.. but if it gets to centralized battle, it is not going to look good for the bomber formation.. that is simply known beforehand and the only influencing factors a bomber gamer has is a) to secure tons and tons of cooperation beforehand, re-evalute and comunicate agreements flight and B) having a flight plan that takes into account these factors

or have good escort, and a good communication with the other wings, to know exactly when, and where to go, to keep the risk down as much as possible. In SeoW our squad managed several times, that not a single bomber of our escort duty got shot down by enemy fighters. That should be the aim, and not to shot down as much as possible aircraft.

 

 

Online gaming does not favour bomber

exactly, and because of that very reason the fighters have to keep extra attention 

 

Such a campaign should be fun for every player, not only for the fighters. And to accomplish that, one has to adapt. Make the bombers the focal point of the mission. Hence, the campaign is called Friday Night Bomber Flights.

If fighter pilots don't have the patience and discipline, that is needed for particular duties, and don't have fun fulfilling those duties, they should maybe do something else. Or say from the very beginning, that they don't wanna make escort. I am sure it's no problem to find fighter pilots who have fun flying disciplined escort, including 

 

where you can expect people to sacrifice them for you

. That's what the stuff we are doing here is all about.

If everyone does what he wants, there is no purpose in those missions at all. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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I hope i'm right in assuming you will be escorting bombers next time and constantly giving us updates on everything that happens? Because last time you did not..   - Im sure your SeoW-experience will come quite in handy in teaching us. Im sure to take notes!  :salute:  

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Guys let's cool this down a bit please. Bombers got plastered during the last mission but we can live with it. We 're pretty much accustomed to it happening occasionally.

 

In almost every mission there are some things that could have gone better. The main idea though is that people have an enjoyable experience.

 

FNBFs is still in its early stages and we are all on a learning curve. There is always a next mission to plan ahead and improve tactics. 

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Don't know for sure how "fighter command" is managed ( have flown a bf109 once long time ago at FNBF witrh all sitting in once channel) we usually setup at least one guys with whispers to different fighters groups in bomber / Stuka groups. That has worked out fine as far as I can tell and is better organized than having all 6 bombers crying out for fighter cover via whisper at once.

 

You also got to consider that too many "whisperes" may interferr with your group chatter if everyone is assinged to it. That can quickly escalate into chaos.

 

As for the situation we had last Friday (I know we shouldn't bring this up again) it was the first time our Heinkel Schwarm has been obliberated completely during the first attack. Yes, part of the unsucess probably was to blame on unsufficient comunication during combat, but it's not like this has been an issue before. Usually Heinkels enjoyed well coordinated escort (at least more than we poor Stuka drivers :sorry: ) in past FNBFs so I see this more as an unforutnate mishappening than a real issue.

 

Furthermore we (Bf-110s + Emils) were not envolved in fighter briefings so we don't know what specificly has been planed. Maybe even if the intendet escorts had stayed with the bombers they had been overwhelmed by the sheer ammount of red fighters coordinating their attack on the Heinkels (we  didn't actually face any enemy fighter opposition durign out first sorty so they likely were all focused on getting the Heinkels).

 

Quint essence: Yes, comunication is important, but I disagree everyone should have whisper enabled. In my opinion wings should be split up by task (not squadrom / leader + wingman or whatever) and every flight leader shall have whisper to other fighter channels, not specific persons. Nobody should be forced to anything here.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka
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Guys let's cool this down a bit please. Bombers got plastered during the last mission but we can live with it. We 're pretty much accustomed to it happening occasionally.

 

In almost every mission there are some things that could have gone better. The main idea though is that people have an enjoyable experience.

 

FNBFs is still in its early stages and we are all on a learning curve. There is always a next mission to plan ahead and improve tactics. 

 

Exactly. And while analyzing that some things went wrong, especially bad communication and organisation of the fighters, and i have some approved improvement suggestions, to make it better in the future, the only thing that happens is that some fighter pilots can't accept the slightest tad of criticism, and attack me for telling the truth. Well, i am not a bomber pilot, i am a fighter pilot (mostly). 

So i couldn't care what so ever. But i do. It hurts me seeing the downfall of the whole formation. I didn't attack anyone, i just brought up some possible improvements. Anyone who is doubting that, can well read my first post in this topic here. 

I am done with this discussion now. If you/the bomber ground attackers get farmed furthermore in the next missions, i won't say anything anymore.

 

 

 (we  didn't actually face any enemy fighter opposition durign out first sorty so they likely were all focused on getting the Heinkels).

Not true. In my first flight, when doing recon for you in the beginning, i shot down a Lagg first, and later entering a fight with 2 Migs, shooting one down, seeing the other one running away towards their base. It's really not the case that "ALL" fighters have been focused on the Heinkels

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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I believe part of the desaster was that I shot 2 green flares due to erratic inputs. Now I know what this vertical green or red bars are telling me.

Nevertheless if you are searching for enemy planes to shoot down, there is a good chance you meet them attacking the bombers.

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There were 7 more fighters on VVS side + they had multiple spawns. Most noteably of course were the Yaks, which were quite sucessfull.

 

Let's not take this too sentiment pls, that's not what this is about. It's about fun, not setting up an elite fighter force. I remember how often our Stuka formation got hammered down by Yaks. In my first FNBF our first 2 sorties the entire unit was wiped out by them. It was only in the 3rd I managed to deliver my ordinance.

 

Such stuff tends to happen and although we all agree it can be prevent do not promote the end of the world. I'm very sure you guys are going to teach us a tough lesson this Friday.

 

Let's keep it fun, keep it great.

PS: I can get your frustration as a long time squadrom flyer but pls consider not all pilots participating in FNBF are squad trained nor expirience hardened pilots.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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You should have taken this to PM instead of making everyone especially yourself look bad.

 

We have a saying about not airing your dirty laundry in public

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only if you don't know how to configure your Teamspeak

Could you elaborate a little more for someone who actually has not much experience with teamspeak? Sounds like you know a better way to do it.

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You should have taken this to PM instead of making everyone especially yourself look bad.

 

We have a saying about not airing your dirty laundry in public

What the hell?

I made a suggestion about a different typ of communication. One that might possibly interest anyone, also the VVS side. Nocke seemed to like it was well. What is dirty laundry there? 

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There were 7 more fighters on VVS side + they had multiple spawns. Most noteably of course were the Yaks, which were quite sucessfull.

 

Let's not take this too sentiment pls, that's not what this is about. It's about fun, not setting up an elite fighter force. I remember how often our Stuka formation got hammered down by Yaks. In my first FNBF our first 2 sorties the entire unit was wiped out by them. It was only in the 3rd I managed to deliver my ordinance.

 

Such stuff tends to happen and although we all agree it can be prevent do not promote the end of the world. I'm very sure you guys are going to teach us a tough lesson this Friday.

 

Let's keep it fun, keep it great.

PS: I can get your frustration as a long time squadrom flyer but pls consider not all pilots participating in FNBF are squad trained nor expirience hardened pilots.

 

Don't want to set up an elite fighter force. I really love the FNBFs, but the one thing which lacked so far, was communication IMHO. Like already explained a few times, when compared to SeoW i feel "blind". When flying SeoW, i almost feel like having a long range radar, because you get so much valuable information all the time. Compared to that, it lacked in FNBF, you really don't learn much about anything, those few whispers didn't change that so far. 

So i came up with a possible enhancement. In between those posts, there were reasonable counter arguments, like you can't fly without push to talk etc..i get that. I only used the bomber slaughter as an example where comms lacked, because it was up-to-date, and easy to explain what went wrong. Didn't wanna blame anyone. Wanted only to talk about our comms. 

And you really don't have to be an elite pilot to communicate properly. 

I still have the opinion, that we should change our comm system a little. Like you already suggested, that at least all the wing leaders are together in a whisper channel, and exchange valuable information

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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