kileab Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) There is an injustice regarding to credits between lonewolves like 127_Tom and pilots from a large squad. With all our pilots (22) we have a comfortable reserve of 11000 credits at the lowest. We never have 22 pilots in the same time connected to this serveur. So we don't care at all of our credits, we just fly what we want. edit : typos Edited December 11, 2016 by -IRRE-Biluf
IRRE_Centx Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 It says you will get 1000 starting credits, but I only got 500. I can't even fly any planes on server now. How are new people supposed to get into this? You get 1000 credits ONLY the first time you log into the server. After you have the amount of credits you won, with a minimum of 500 credits. And "can't even fly any planes"... Wrong, you can fly : - 109 E7 (with bombs) - some 109 F2 - Bf 110 without bombs as heavy fighter - a lot of variations of I-16 - a lot of variations of il-2 (41 or 42) - a lot of variations of Ju-87 - La-5 with HE shells - MC 202 - a lot of variations of Mig-3 - P-40 almost all variations - some variations of Pe-35 There is an injustice regarding to credits between lonewolves like 127_Tom and pilots from a large squad. With all our pilots (22) we have a confortable reserve of 11000 credits at the lowest. We never have 22 pilots in the same time connected to this serveur. So we don't care at all of our credits, we just fly what we want. +1
=38=Tatarenko Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 Having a STACK of fun on this server! Thank you so much to those who make it. I've been flying alongside the IRRE guys in my Sturmovik taking out bases and tanks, absolutely loving it! Salut! And thanks for all the times you rescue me from an impossible position Couple of shots from a combined Pe-2, Il-2 and Yak strike. I'll try for better shots next time - it gets busy at the target.
IRRE_Centx Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) I actually discover how are our Pe-2 without the IRRE skin :D (and IRRE taxiing: level over 9000 ) Edited December 11, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx
72AG_Crusader Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) To solve 'vulch problem' we change capture mechanics next campaign. Airifields will cost 1 point instead of 2. Front warehouse already hardened (increased buildings number and added separated sections). In next campaign front warehouse will cost 2 points. Economics also will be changed. Fireproof 500 points was bad idea. This thing will be removed. And supply missions will restore up to 1000 points per pilot. So if you will got 950 credits, supply mission reward will be only 50 credits. In a squad this limit should be multiplied by squad members count (member should spawn on airfield once to be counted as squad member in a new campaign). Also, on every sortie with takeoff will be 30% of price fee to stimulate players be more effective. edit: typo Edited December 11, 2016 by 72AG_Crusader
6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann Posted December 11, 2016 Posted December 11, 2016 To solve 'vulch problem' we change capture mechanics next campaign. Airifields will cost 1 point instead of 2. Front warehouse already hardened (increased buildings number and added separated sections). In next campaign front warehouse will cost 2 points. Economics also will be changed. Fireproof 500 points was bad idea. This thing will be removed. And supply missions will restore up to 1000 points per pilot. So if you will got 950 credits, supply mission reward will be only 50 credits. In a squad this limit should be multiplied by squad members count (member should spawn on airfield once to be counted as squad member in a new campaign). Also, on every sortie with takeoff will be 30% of price fee to stimulate players be more effective. edit: typo Will you take my Idea for Bomber Airfields into account at some point?
CSW_606_JuLB Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 To solve 'vulch problem' we change capture mechanics next campaign. .... Also, on every sortie with takeoff will be 30% of price fee to stimulate players be more effective. Sorry, I do not understand. Why? Every one want to be effective. Bombers and fighters too. And goal for fighters should be to cover our targets, to cover friendly bombers, and not to kill every enemy plane for all cost. Especially, if a lot of ground targets are non destructible by guns. I thing, only one way to score easy kills for pay this fee will be "sitting" near enemy fields and vulching. Is this situation what do you want? And how many targets will be necesery to kill in every sortie, if plane price for exaple is 1500, and fee will be 450 credits? Sorry for english. To solve 'vulch problem' we change capture mechanics next campaign. .... Also, on every sortie with takeoff will be 30% of price fee to stimulate players be more effective. Sorry, I do not understand. Why? Every one want to be effective. Bombers and fighters too. And goal for fighters should be to cover our targets, to cover friendly bombers, and not to kill every enemy plane for all cost. Especially, if a lot of ground targets are non destructible by guns. I thing, only one way to score easy kills for pay this fee will be "sitting" near enemy fields and vulching. Is this situation what do you want? And how many targets will be necesery to kill in every sortie, if plane price for exaple is 1500, and fee will be 450 credits? Sorry for english.
72AG_Crusader Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 1 hour of flight time will be rewarded by 540 credits. If plane price for example is 1500 and fee is 450, pilot should fly more time or kill enemy to pay off his expensive aircraft. Of course, we set up economics with reasonable limits.
Aap Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Maybe the 30% price fee should only be for big bombs (+1000 kg). About the squad credits, maybe the planes should not depend on total available credits, but about average (+10% if you want to promote squad play for example). Now if a squad has 10 players (10000 credits to start) but on average only 5 fly at the same time, then every player can fly the best possible planes. But if you introduce averages, squads will need to take care of their planes, too. So a member of a 10 player squad with 10000 credits can fly a 10000/10 = 1000 credit plane (or 1100 with the 10% squad bonus). if a squad loses a couple of planes and has 8000 credits, every player of the squad can fly with 800 (or 880) credit plane. If the squad builds credits to 15000, every player can fly a 1500 (1650) credit plane.
kileab Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Keep the rules simple please. You lost me with your fees. Simple are better If you want to limit certain planes, then limit them on the airfields. 47 lines about economics in your info page, and growing... Edited December 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Biluf 2
Habu Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 I agree with Biluf, and do not forget to update the frst post with the uptodate rules. 1
IRRE_Centx Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) To solve 'vulch problem' we change capture mechanics next campaign. Airifields will cost 1 point instead of 2. Front warehouse already hardened (increased buildings number and added separated sections). In next campaign front warehouse will cost 2 points. Economics also will be changed. Fireproof 500 points was bad idea. This thing will be removed. And supply missions will restore up to 1000 points per pilot. So if you will got 950 credits, supply mission reward will be only 50 credits. In a squad this limit should be multiplied by squad members count (member should spawn on airfield once to be counted as squad member in a new campaign). Also, on every sortie with takeoff will be 30% of price fee to stimulate players be more effective. I agree with the solution for airfields (and yes we noticed that front warehouse are harder to destroy now xD) I'm not against the new economic system, I guess it's impossible to find a perfect solution. As Biluf said, I find it a bit complicated... but if it's the price to have something with a bit of balance, let's try it! And I like the idea of II./JG77.Kemp (the "average" part... I disagree with the fact that only big bombs should pay a fee, I think everybody should pay a fee), it's interesting and could work too. Edited December 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx 1
Aap Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 About the fee thing, a couple of examples why I think that it might not be best for the regular planes. Example 1. You take off in a Bf109 to protect a friendly target. After a few minutes in the air you see a Pe-2 attacking the target and you engage it and smoke it heavily, while also getting hit from his rear gunner. Another Bf109 then shoots it down (or let's say, you see 5 Yak's escorting it and decide to disengage from 1 vs 5 fight). If you now decide to land with the smoking engine, you are not able to take off again, because you don't have enough credits. Credit calculation: you had 1000 points, plane cost was 1000 points. After takeoff you had 700 points. For 10 minutes flight you earn 90 points => final credits 790 points. So you lost points, even if you were actively involved in combat and returned your plane. Example 2. There is 20 minutes left on the mission and one important target to defend to keep your KP. Should you take off to fight the final push from the enemey or rather wait for the next round? If you take off, but are not shooting anybody down during the last 20 minutes, you are guaranteed to lose credits: 1000 - 300 + 180 = 880 points. Example 3. Enemy location needs to be bombed. You take a bomber with a moderate bomb load, 900 points (have 630 left after -30%) and go to target. Some of your friends already bombed it while you were flying to target, just 5 more units to kill to destroy the target completely. You bomb then and return home successfully. Result: you have less credits than what you began with, despite giving the final blow to destroy the target. 3
[_FLAPS_]Grim Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Not a fan of the fee.Big fan of the bomber fields (besides frontfield loadout for Bf-110, it should be max. 2x500 + under wing loadout).Could it be that the Bf-110 ingame pricetag and that on the server stats site differ?
IRRE_Centx Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 About the fee thing, a couple of examples why I think that it might not be best for the regular planes. Example 1. You take off in a Bf109 to protect a friendly target. After a few minutes in the air you see a Pe-2 attacking the target and you engage it and smoke it heavily, while also getting hit from his rear gunner. Another Bf109 then shoots it down (or let's say, you see 5 Yak's escorting it and decide to disengage from 1 vs 5 fight). If you now decide to land with the smoking engine, you are not able to take off again, because you don't have enough credits. Credit calculation: you had 1000 points, plane cost was 1000 points. After takeoff you had 700 points. For 10 minutes flight you earn 90 points => final credits 790 points. So you lost points, even if you were actively involved in combat and returned your plane. Example 2. There is 20 minutes left on the mission and one important target to defend to keep your KP. Should you take off to fight the final push from the enemey or rather wait for the next round? If you take off, but are not shooting anybody down during the last 20 minutes, you are guaranteed to lose credits: 1000 - 300 + 180 = 880 points. Example 3. Enemy location needs to be bombed. You take a bomber with a moderate bomb load, 900 points (have 630 left after -30%) and go to target. Some of your friends already bombed it while you were flying to target, just 5 more units to kill to destroy the target completely. You bomb then and return home successfully. Result: you have less credits than what you began with, despite giving the final blow to destroy the target. Mh you got a point here...
6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Why not give a Bonus for Landing properly? Would love to see that. Way too many people doing War Thunder Style ones, Nose Down to brake. In any case, moving the Airfield further away from the Front would do a lot to alleviate this Camping Problem. It becomes too bothersome and dangerous. Giving each airfield 2 small Flakbatteries 2-5km in Runway Heading, Me-262 style would probably also help. And giving the Slow and Vulnerable Bombers and Attackers a dedicated Rear Airfield, far away from the Front, would also improve their safety. It makes camping immediately less profitable when it's mostly fighters spawning near you. Edited December 12, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
IRRE_Centx Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Why not give a Bonus for Landing properly? Would love to see that. Way too many people doing War Thunder Style ones, Nose Down to brake. Actually there is already a bonus. First, if you land on an airfield, you have +25% bonus (points and credits) + Secondly, if you land correctly, your points are at 100%. If you land and damage your plane (especially the propeller) you have only 50% of your points. Edited December 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx
Otto_bann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Prohibiting attacks of bases (except the one targeted) would be simpler and would direct attacks to the real ground targets (or their defense) of the brief currently neglected by too much guys. Edited December 12, 2016 by Kleinen
kileab Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Following my idea of restricting planes at the mission level and not at the pilot level (no more frustrations) here is an example of limitations. I consider 2 groups of planes, the fighters and the bombers / attackers The idea is to start from a determined number of aircraft at each aerodrome and to limit the types of aircraft per percentage of what it would be acceptable to meet in the air. LLW Bf-109 F4 : 10% Bf-109 G2 : 10% Bf-109 F2 : 20% Bf-109 E7 : 30% MC-202 Series VIII : 30% He-111 H6 : 10% Ju-88 A4 : 10% Bf-110 E2 : 20% Ju-87 D : 30% Fw-190 A3 : 30% VVS LA-5 Series 8 : 10% Yak-1B Series 127 : 10% Yak-1 Series 69 : 10% Mig-3 Series 24 : 20% Lagg-3 Series 29 : 20% I-16 Type 24 : 30% Pe-2 Series 87 : 10% Pe-2 Series 35 : 10% IL-2M 1942 : 20% IL-2M 1941 : 30% P-40 E-1 : 30%
=38=Tatarenko Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 I think we should definitely keep airfield attacks - they are the most interesting target. The objects are dispersed (so a huge bomb doesn't much work) and there is flak, a/c taking off, other aircraft arriving etc. They are dangerous to attack (unlike a distant HQ with no air cover) and although I frequently die in my old Sturmovik I'd hate to see airbase attack missions go.
6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Following my idea of restricting planes at the mission level and not at the pilot level (no more frustrations) here is an example of limitations. I consider 2 groups of planes, the fighters and the bombers / attackers The idea is to start from a determined number of aircraft at each aerodrome and to limit the types of aircraft per percentage of what it would be acceptable to meet in the air. LLW Bf-109 F4 : 10% Bf-109 G2 : 10% Bf-109 F2 : 20% Bf-109 E7 : 30% MC-202 Series VIII : 30% He-111 H6 : 10% Ju-88 A4 : 10% Bf-110 E2 : 20% Ju-87 D : 30% Fw-190 A3 : 30% VVS LA-5 Series 8 : 10% Yak-1B Series 127 : 10% Yak-1 Series 69 : 10% Mig-3 Series 24 : 20% Lagg-3 Series 29 : 20% I-16 Type 24 : 30% Pe-2 Series 87 : 10% Pe-2 Series 35 : 10% IL-2M 1942 : 20% IL-2M 1941 : 30% P-40 E-1 : 30% Like the Idea, but it would have to change by Map and Date.
=38=Tatarenko Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Following my idea of restricting planes at the mission level and not at the pilot level (no more frustrations) here is an example of limitations. I consider 2 groups of planes, the fighters and the bombers / attackers The idea is to start from a determined number of aircraft at each aerodrome and to limit the types of aircraft per percentage of what it would be acceptable to meet in the air. LLW Bf-109 F4 : 10% Bf-109 G2 : 10% Bf-109 F2 : 20% Bf-109 E7 : 30% MC-202 Series VIII : 30% etc etc I really disagree with this. By restricting planes you restrict players. I basically only want to fly Sturmovik but this system says I maybe can't? So I will play elsewhere. And a Messer pilot is not going to want to tool around in a Heinkel just because the server says so. He'll be gone in a second. The secret of a good game/server is to offer the player choice. (Anyway, there were only a dozen Mc202 on the Eastern Front and those that were there hardly ever actually flew.) Also, the take off fee is a bad idea. The Yak pilot who guards our glorious Pe-2's and sees us safely to the target and home will LOSE points in the mission? Crazy. It will kill co-operative escort. Edited December 12, 2016 by =38=Tatarenko
kileab Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) There are number of players like you Tata who only fly one plane. It's a pity really, this game offers so much planes. Anyway, there are 4 airfields for each side. If your favorite plane is not avalaible at one airfield, it will be available at another one. And in my exemple you have 50% of bombers you can fly on each airfield Edited December 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Biluf
=38=Tatarenko Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Biluf I agree there are German, Italian and American planes to fly as well but we are gentlemen
CSW_606_JuLB Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 It (fee) will kill co-operative escort. Short, true and sad.
Aap Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Following my idea of restricting planes at the mission level and not at the pilot level (no more frustrations) here is an example of limitations. I think that system would cause a lot more frustrations. With personal credits or personal garage you are able to affect what planes you get to fly. If you take care of your plane and life, you get to fly it again. With the mission related limits, the first people that get on the server (is that based on luck or ping btw?) get to pick the best planes and the rest get to take what is left over. So let's say that according to your example there are 10 F4's, 10 G2's, 20 F2's, 30 E7's and 30 MC's available as Luftwaffe fighters. Wouldn't it be frustrating for a BoS-only player to join the server 10 minutes after mission start to see that there are no BoS fighters available, because the first 20 people to join the server were able to destroy a third of the fighters on take-off and the rest are already in the air or shot down. Edited December 12, 2016 by II./JG77_Kemp
Trinkof Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) I agree with tata on some point : - the fee will kill escort mission ... People will "loose credit" for doing an escort. Best escorters do not acheive kill on their targets, just drive them off their bombers... And rarely score kills if they are deducated to their task and disciplined. A fee would punish those guy .... Bad choice as they are the people playing it immersive. I personaly liked some previous iteration you have from 0 to 5 plane. Supply mission credit you with plane .... Simple, more punishing than now. A varaiation with the type of plane could be made : fighter or attacker. Fly supply with a fighter get a fighter plane in hangar... Attacker for an attacker ... While keeping the max limit of 3 plane max per player, 5 was too much. And get back half a plane when ditching in ally territory Edited December 12, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof
kileab Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 I think that system would cause a lot more frustrations. With personal credits or personal garage you are able to affect what planes you get to fly. If you take care of your plane and life, you get to fly it again. With the mission related limits, the first people that get on the server (is that based on luck or ping btw?) get to pick the best planes and the rest get to take what is left over. So let's say that according to your example there are 10 F4's, 10 G2's, 20 F2's, 30 E7's and 30 MC's available as Luftwaffe fighters. Wouldn't it be frustrating for a BoS-only player to join the server 10 minutes after mission start to see that there are no BoS fighters available, because the first 20 people to join the server were able to destroy a third of the fighters on take-off and the rest are already in the air or shot down. In my exemple it's 10%, not 10 planes. I have not the data to choose the number max of fighters or bombers avalaible on each airfield (and if you consider that it's 10 planes, you have 40 F4 with all the airfields). It was not me who chose an economic system to limit some type of aircraft, it is the designer of the campaign. I just try to explore another option than the credit system.
6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 How about this: -The 72AG Campaign starts on a certain Date, acting as a design Cut-Off, starting let's say Sepember 1941, and every Mission Cycle advances by a certain amount of time, 3 days to 2 weeks would seem reasonable. -Every Team Starts out with the available Aircraft at that time. -The Newer the design the more expensive it is. -Prices go down at a rate of maybe 10% or more per Month? The Line-Up and initial Pricing at the beginning would be: Germans: He-111H-6 (Cheap) Ju-88A-4 (Expensive) Bf110E-2 (Depending on Payload, either cheap or very expensive) Bf109E-7 (Cheap) Bf109F-2 (Expensive) Bf109F-4 (Prohibitively Expensive) The Additions would then be: March 1942: Ju-87D-3 (Depending on Payload either Super Cheap or Somewhat Expensive) March 1942: Fw190A-3 (Trump Tower Expensive) May 1942: Bf109G-2 (Prohibitively Expensive) June 1942: Mc.202 (Cheap) VVS: Pe-2 s.35 (Quite Expensive) Il-2 1941 (Worth as Much as "Medal for Distinguished Labour 'Медаль «За трудовое отличие»'") I-16 (cheap as a Potatoe) MiG-3 (Expensive as Bread) Later Additions: December 1941: P-40E (something something Trotzky) May 1942: Pe-2 s.87 (Quite Expensive) May 1942: LaGG-3 (Cheap, but 23mm and 37 increase it a Ton) May 1942: Yak-1 s.69 (Expensive) June 1942: Il-2 1942 (Worth as much as a Tzar's Life) September 1942: La-5 (Cut me a good Deal Ivan) April 1943: Yak-1 s.127 (Expensive) -No Airfield closer than 20km to the Front, in general 20-50km -A Dedicated Bomber Airfield, with long Runway, Beacon and Flak. This would be the only one allowed to Spawn heavy Bombloads, including "Blue Bombs" for Germans. -Disallow "Blue Bombs" (2500kg, 1800kg and 1000kg) from being used from Front Line Airfield, this will prevent those suicidal He-111s with 2500kg racing to targets, dropping and being killed by Flak or fighters quickly afterwards. -Disallow 2 Engine Bomber Spawns at Front Line Airfields altogether. -Maybe Disallow Bombloads exceeding 500kg for Bf110 and Ju-87and 600kg for Pe-2 from Front Line Airfields. This would reduce suicidal Low, Slow and Heavy Suicide Bombings I so often have to watch from far above, flying properly in order to preserve my Aircraft. 2
Otto_bann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Too much complicated IMO.More simple, just few modifications :- prohibit attack bases or a part of them (it's a big problem at the moment) and vulch around too.- let the points to those who do the job (escort), even if they don't make kill- rewarding more those who crush the ground objectives (to encourage to do it)The supply flying, this idea who pretend to raise the pilots level comes back like bad smell around the trash... his deserved place though. If you realy want fly with 50% less guys, it's a good idea.
Aap Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 In my exemple it's 10%, not 10 planes. I have not the data to choose the number max of fighters or bombers avalaible on each airfield (and if you consider that it's 10 planes, you have 40 F4 with all the airfields). It was not me who chose an economic system to limit some type of aircraft, it is the designer of the campaign. I just try to explore another option than the credit system. I understood that you talked about percentages and my point remains. If there are too many of the planes, then it is really not a restriction and if there is a limited amount of "free-for-all" planes, then some quick suicide pilots could waste the planes. That is why I think that a personal credit or garage system is better - if you take good care of your plane then you get to fly it again and not have somebody else crash it for you.
72AG_Crusader Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Gentlmen, you miss one important term: gameplay must satisfy all players. We now see, that its really not a problem to have more than 30k credits in a squad. And in the result of it players start use kamikaze tactics. Thats bad and some players left because of it Also, fireproof limit also stimulate people to use this tactic on cheap planes. Our goal is not to make boring step-by-step strategy. We want make interesting and polyhedral gameplay. 'Blue bombs' in a historic view was a special weapon. And we achieve something like this through its price. Because of this popularity and effectiveness it will cost huge amounts of credits. We will regulate the takeoff fee during next campaign to make people play in comfort. Also, flight time reward could be increased. We are still searching best solution of economics set up. Economics worked fine in start of the Campaign. And we decided dont touch it until Campaign end. And this was not good idea too. We should intervene and make corrections in time. Under the spoiler I post example calculations of prices. I think it quite balanced. Especially in perspective of 1000 starting credits per pilot. And supply amount will be 1000 credits for bomber and 500 for fighter, but with limit of 1000 suppliable credits. More than 1000 players should earn by safe and effective sorties. il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-100M [6];428 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [6];279 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [6];945 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [6];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-250sv [2];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-250sv [2];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-250sv [2];279 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-250sv [2];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];304 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];419 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [420], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];318 il-2 mod.1941;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360];250 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 250 [2];250 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 250 [2], SC 50 [4];263 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 50 [12];250 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 500 [2];972 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 500 [2], SC 50 [4];585 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 1000 [1];711 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 1000 [1], SC 250 [1];3261 bf 110 e-2;MG 17 AP [4000], MG FF/M AP/HE [360], SC 1000 [1], SC 50 [4];250 bf 109 f-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/15 AP/HE [200];563 bf 109 f-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/15 AP/HE [200], SC 50 [4];250 bf 109 f-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/15 AP/HE [200], SC 250 [1];400 bf 109 f-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200];388 bf 109 f-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], SC 50 [4];382 bf 109 f-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], SC 250 [1];250 fw 190 a-3;MG 17 AP [1800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [500];532 fw 190 a-3;MG 17 AP [1800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [500], SC 50 [4];250 fw 190 a-3;MG 17 AP [1800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [500], SC 250 [1];250 fw 190 a-3;MG 17 AP [1800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [500], SC 500 [1];2656 fw 190 a-3;MG 17 AP [1800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [500], MG FF/M AP/HE [120];319 fw 190 a-3;MG 17 AP [1800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [500], MG FF/M AP/HE [180];542 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP/HE [80];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP [80];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 HE [80];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP/HE [80], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP [80], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 HE [80], FAB-50sv [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [4];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP/HE [80], FAB-100M [2];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP [80], FAB-100M [2];324 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 HE [80], FAB-100M [2];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-100M [6];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [6];302 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [6];1394 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [6];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP/HE [80], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP [80], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 HE [80], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [4], ROS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-250sv [2];262 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-250sv [2];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-250sv [2];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-250sv [2];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP/HE [80], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 AP [80], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], Sh-37 HE [80], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [4], RBS-82 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [4], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-50sv [6], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [500], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 AP [300], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 il-2 mod.1942;ShKAS AP [1500], VYa-23 HE [300], FAB-100M [2], ROFS-132 [8];250 he 111 h-6;SC 50 [16];448 he 111 h-6;SC 250 [4];521 he 111 h-6;SC 500 [1], SC 50 [16];250 he 111 h-6;SC 500 [1], SC 250 [4];438 he 111 h-6;SC 1000 [2];2088 he 111 h-6;SC 1000 [1], SC 50 [16];250 he 111 h-6;SC 1000 [1], SC 250 [4];1210 he 111 h-6;SC 1800 [2];7333 he 111 h-6;SC 1800 [1], SC 50 [16];250 he 111 h-6;SC 1800 [1], SC 250 [4];250 he 111 h-6;SC 1800 [1], SC 1000 [1];250 he 111 h-6;SC 2500 [1];3293 he 111 h-6;SC 2500 [1], SC 1000 [1];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120];1565 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [2];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [2];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [2];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [2];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [6];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [6];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [6];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], ROS-82 [6];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], FAB-50sv [2];250 yak-1 ser.69;ShKAS AP [1500], ShVAK AP/HE [120], FAB-100M [2];351 bf 109 f-4;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200];1154 bf 109 f-4;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], SC 50 [4];250 bf 109 f-4;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], SC 250 [1];295 bf 109 f-4;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], 2x MG 151/15 AP/HE [270];277 bf 109 f-4;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], 2x MG 151/20 AP/HE [270];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [4];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [6];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-250sv [2];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [10];1630 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-250sv [4];2163 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-500M [2];2475 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], ROS-132 [10];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [4], ROS-132 [10];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [6], ROS-132 [10];250 pe-2 ser.35;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-250sv [2], ROS-132 [10];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], FAB-50sv [2];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], FAB-100M [2];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShKAS AP [1800], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180];774 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], FAB-50sv [2];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], FAB-100M [2];775 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [4];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [6];250 i-16 type 24;ShKAS AP [1000], ShVAK AP/HE [180], ROS-82 [6];250 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150];285 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [4];408 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [6];741 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-250sv [2];412 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [10];1078 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-250sv [4];2843 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-500M [2];3435 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], ROS-132 [10];352 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [4], ROS-132 [10];461 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-100M [6], ROS-132 [10];521 pe-2 ser.87;ShKAS AP [450], UB AP/HE [150], FAB-250sv [2], ROS-132 [10];488 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90];954 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90];390 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20], FAB-50sv [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160], FAB-100M [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90], FAB-100M [2];399 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90], FAB-100M [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90], FAB-100M [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20], FAB-100M [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20], FAB-100M [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20], FAB-100M [2];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], ShVAK AP/HE [160], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP/HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 AP [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [200], VYa-23 HE [90], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP/HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 AP [20], ROS-82 [6];250 lagg-3 ser.29;UB AP/HE [140], Sh-37 HE [20], ROS-82 [6];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK AP/HE [340];1305 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK AP/HE [340], FAB-50sv [2];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK AP/HE [340], FAB-100M [2];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK AP [340];989 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK AP [340], FAB-50sv [2];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK AP [340], FAB-100M [2];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK HE [340];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK HE [340], FAB-50sv [2];250 la-5 ser.8;ShVAK HE [340], FAB-100M [2];250 ju 88 a-4;SC 250 [4];803 ju 88 a-4;SC 250 [6];393 ju 88 a-4;SC 50 [28];272 ju 88 a-4;SC 50 [44];250 ju 88 a-4;SC 250 [4], SC 50 [28];260 ju 88 a-4;SC 250 [6], SC 50 [28];300 ju 88 a-4;SC 500 [4];459 ju 88 a-4;SC 500 [4], SC 250 [2];4237 ju 88 a-4;SC 500 [4], SC 50 [18];1827 ju 88 a-4;SC 1000 [2];1110 ju 88 a-4;SC 1800 [1];309 ju 88 a-4;SC 1800 [1], SC 1000 [1];2116 bf 109 g-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200];886 bf 109 g-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], SC 50 [4];250 bf 109 g-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], SC 250 [1];392 bf 109 g-2;MG 17 AP [1000], MG 151/20 AP/HE [200], 2x MG 151/20 AP/HE [270];544 mc.202 ser.viii;Breda 12.7 AP/HE [800];572 mc.202 ser.viii;Breda 12.7 AP/HE [800], 50-T [2];250 mc.202 ser.viii;Breda 12.7 AP/HE [800], 100-T [2];250 mc.202 ser.viii;Breda 12.7 AP/HE [800], Breda 7.7 AP [1000];329 mc.202 ser.viii;Breda 12.7 AP/HE [800], MG 151/20 AP/HE [270];281 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000];250 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 250 [1], SD 70 [4];314 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 500 [1];250 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 500 [1], SD 70 [4];392 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 500 [1], SC 250 [2];941 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 250 [3];304 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 1000 [1];885 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], SC 1800 [1];1695 ju 87 d-3;MG 17 AP [2000], WB 81 B AP [3000];250 ju 87 d-3;BK 37 AP [24];250 ju 87 d-3;BK 37 HE [24];250 yak-1b ser.127;UB AP/HE [220], ShVAK AP/HE [140];1514 yak-1b ser.127;UB AP/HE [220], ShVAK AP/HE [140], FAB-50sv [2];250 yak-1b ser.127;UB AP/HE [220], ShVAK AP/HE [140], FAB-100M [2];516 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [2];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [2];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShKAS AP [1500], BS AP/HE [300], BK AP/HE [290];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700];414 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], FAB-50sv [2];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], FAB-100M [2];250 mig-3 ser.24;BS AP/HE [700], BK AP/HE [290];353 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300];708 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], ROS-82 [6];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], FAB-50sv [2];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], FAB-100M [2];250 mig-3 ser.24;ShVAK AP/HE [300], BK AP/HE [290];505 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686];761 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], FAB-250sv [1];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], FAB-250sv [1];670 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], FAB-250sv [1];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], FAB-250sv [1];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], FAB-500M [1];1376 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], FAB-500M [1];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], FAB-500M [1];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], FAB-500M [1];372 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], FAB-250sv [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], FAB-250sv [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], FAB-250sv [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], FAB-250sv [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1410], FAB-500M [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [1686], FAB-500M [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [940], FAB-500M [1], ROS-82 [4];250 p-40e-1;M2.50 AP [2460], FAB-500M [1], ROS-82 [4];250 bf 109 e-7;MG 17 AP [2000], MG FF/M AP/HE [120];710 bf 109 e-7;MG 17 AP [2000], MG FF/M AP/HE [120], SC 50 [4];993 bf 109 e-7;MG 17 AP [2000], MG FF/M AP/HE [120], SC 250 [1];545
Yours_truly_Ace Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 You will never solve the vulture problem as long as a pilot gets a score / credit to shoot down an enemy plane. And why do you even have a score / credit system anyway? It's totally unrealistic in terms of how the war was fought, Shall a pilot worry about his score / credit or worry about the main mission objective? My advice: Cut the score / credit system completely. Have each base has a set number of planes in the hangars. No restriction of who can fly what. If you manage to land an aircraft back to an airfield, then you fill up that airfield's hangar with the plane you landed. If it's damaged, maybe you can add some hours of repair into that plane before it can piloted.- This will also make the transfer missions much more intuitive (no need to disarm a plane before transfer). For pilot stats: Just keep tad of how many planes a pilot has shot down, flying hours, crashed, baile, died etc. And maybe tone down the penalty system a bit? If you lose internet connection or don't manage to land your plane before the server time runs out, you should not get a penalty in my opinion. 1
Matthias_PDX Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Airbases were targets in the war itself and there destruction was key to air superiority. Making them safe zones would be a mistake. Maybe not enough people are escorting or patrolling close? At any rate I'm really enjoying the server and hopefully you guys don't go too wild with the changes. 1
6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Our goal is not to make boring step-by-step strategy. We want make interesting and polyhedral gameplay. 'Blue bombs' in a historic view was a special weapon. And we achieve something like this through its price. Because of this popularity and effectiveness it will cost huge amounts of credits. Well, a "Special Weapon" shouldn't be a Regular Front Line Accessory. I would just like to see 2 Fixed, Non-Moving Bomber Airfields on each Map: Dvoevka and Sychevka for the Germans Vnukovo and Phily for Russians. These have Long Runways and are far enough from the Front as to not be effected by Campers as much. This also is beneficial for the Campaign Dynamics. The Further the Front Moves away from the Bomber Airfields, the longer their Mission Time and thus less Sorties they can fly, the Less Targets they destroy per Mission, slowing down the Advance of the either Side once the Front Moves in their Favour. From a Gameplay, historical and immersive Standpoint there are no Disadvantages.
=38=Tatarenko Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Airbases were targets in the war itself and there destruction was key to air superiority. Making them safe zones would be a mistake. Maybe not enough people are escorting or patrolling close? At any rate I'm really enjoying the server and hopefully you guys don't go too wild with the changes. Agreed 100%. Often Sturmoviks were sent on airbase attacks or fighters were sent to blockade a fighter base while a nearby bomber base was attacked. These are valid tactics. Completely separate issue: I'd LOVE to see an occasional night map. Tough navigation, searchlights etc. Migs and Ju-88's near Moscow etc. I realise it may be a weird personal fetish and nobody else would play but I'd love it.
Otto_bann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 Airbases were targets in the war itself and there destruction was key to air superiority. Making them safe zones would be a mistake. But never in real, alone ennemi plane stayed 1h running between 2 near bases at tree top with hope to survive long time at flak. It happens all time on the server, at each mission... A worse way of deceiving the system and history. You will never solve the vulture problem as long as a pilot gets a score / credit to shoot down an enemy plane. And why do you even have a score / credit system anyway? It's totally unrealistic in terms of how the war was fought, Shall a pilot worry about his score / credit or worry about the main mission objective? My advice: Cut the score / credit system completely. Have each base has a set number of planes in the hangars. No restriction of who can fly what... It was ~ the Spits vs 109s system which was the best dogfight server for il2 1946 for 10 years long. Efficient but maybe too much "dog" for what they want for here. Yet actually, just above bases, it's often pure dogfight scenes that we see... I trust on 72s for these adjustments and hope that some errors at others places will be not reproduced. Let's go home and fly now
IRRE_Centx Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) And maybe tone down the penalty system a bit? If you lose internet connection or don't manage to land your plane before the server time runs out, you should not get a penalty in my opinion. Remove the penalty for "lose internet connection" and you will get people doing Alt + F4 when they see a fighter in their 6, just to not risk to loose their pilot/plane (we know it since on TAW server a lot of people did this...) Even if I'm the first one to rage when I loose my connexion/Il-2 crash, I know that this penaltly is necessary. And you don't get a penalty if you don't land your plane before the server time runs out. You don't get the +25% bonus that you get when you land, but you don't have penalty neither. For me the biggest problem of airfield campers isn't solved. You will always get players who are there only for kills, and there are some specialists on this server too (I have a name in my head but I'll say nothing...) Problem is that those guys delete the AAs of an airfield, then circle around the airfield in a 109... I think the only solution would be to set a way to "respawn" destroyed AAs of an airfield... Edited December 12, 2016 by -IRRE-Centx
Yours_truly_Ace Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 If a vulture is getting a lot spawning targets to shoot, the guys who get shot down are to blame: Never spawn on an airfield that is under attack.Spawn from a different field, gain altitude and then shoot down the vulture.
Otto_bann Posted December 12, 2016 Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) Problem is that those guys delete the AAs of an airfield, then circle around the airfield in a 109... Ahahah... if you think it's a blue problen, you make a big mistake! As much each side idiots do it. Spawn from a different field, gain altitude and then shoot down the vulture Easy to say but when you are short benzine for landing or smoky, most hard to do it. First fly this evening : no more explanation needed IMO : Edited December 13, 2016 by Kleinen 2
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now