What's the wobbling thing ?

[Crump]

 

 

You're a pilot in rl crump, at least make the statement as SOME aircraft... Granted most of my experience is gliders but they most certainly do not fly on rails, especially on a winch launch, got to be on top of them all the way up. With larger, modern ac coordinated flight is a given but take a few years away and aircraft had to be flown.

 

I would say check your rudder usage and the time you describe such as launch are transition periods to flight such as normal take off in powered aircraft.  

 

Many times in my instructing days, I heard students exclaim, "It flies like it is on rails!" when they learned to make coordinated turns.  Many really seemed to get excited and I have even had some rather experienced GA pilots say the same thing.  With some experience, you will automatically lead the ailerons with the rudder and the moments on the nose will be in your sight picture as you bank/turn.

 

It is not SOME airplanes, it is simply a property of coordinated flight.

 

Now, many fixed gear nose wheel aircraft do benefit from the stabilizing effect of that nose gear hanging down and subsequently require less control input to "fly on rails".

 

Gliders, like retractable gear aircraft do not have that inherent stabilizing effect and require more pilot attention to remain coordinated. 

Keep in mind too that most World War II SE fighters were just statically longitudinally stable power off and neutral to unstable power on.  Dynamically there was a wide range of characteristics as Dynamic stability was less understood in the 1940's.

 

Laterally, the control characteristics of most airplanes is slightly unstable.  The natural dampening of a wing and some dihedral is enough to provide good controllability in a roll.

[Hoots]

Yes that's rather my point, the pilot generally makes an aircraft fly on rails, not necessarily the aircraft, hence all ac do not fly on rails.

Ps, not boasting but my yaw string spends all of the launch pointing straight back, I have no desire to spin off a wire launch...

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Also, Wing Span, Aileron Differentiation, Length of Fuselage and Size of Rudder as well as Center of Gravity. 

 

A K-13 with me and Instructor (Heavy me in the Front Seat + FI) will not Spin, whereas a light 65kg Girl without Passenger is at risk of Flatspinning if she isn't Careful, all in the same Aircraft. That's why Trim Weights exist. 

 

A DG500 with it's long Tail requires far less Rudder and Aileron in tight turns than a K-13, which you have to fly with Controls almost completely opposed, due to the much longer tail and further back Cg.

 

The P-40 doesn't have the best of relations in that sense, given it's stubby fuselage, rather small Rudder in relation to Weight, Center of Gravity (with rear tank filled) and large Wingspan and very little Aileron Differentiation. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Hoots]

Off topic I know but K13s are just so much fun to fly for that reason

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Off topic I know but K13s are just so much fun to fly for that reason

You know that you're having too much fun when your Instructor Radios you to "fly properly". I love that bird (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/26993-idea-fi-156-storch-and-po-2/?p=427358) 

I hope the K-8 doesn't let me down in that regard. License hopefully this season. 

 

Probably slowed down my flight training by just going Solo for almost an entire Season after my first. Really had to force myself to fly with FI again. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Crump]

 

 

Yes that's rather my point, the pilot generally makes an aircraft fly on rails, not necessarily the aircraft, hence all ac do not fly on rails.

 

I do not know why you keep leaving the coordinated flight stipulation out of what I said and changing the conditions.  It seems you are trying to some how make what I said wrong.  It is not.

 

All aircraft fly like they are on rails especially in coordinated flight.  That is a property of flight.  That a pilot has to input controls is irrelevant as the topic is manned flight.  A coordinated aircraft will fly like it is on rails, end of story. 

 

Nothing I have said covers the conditions you keep bringing up or are reading into what I said such as take off or uncoordinated flight.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I do not know why you keep leaving the coordinated flight stipulation out of what I said and changing the conditions.  It seems you are trying to some how make what I said wrong.  It is not.

 

All aircraft fly like they are on rails especially in coordinated flight.  That is a property of flight.  That a pilot has to input controls is irrelevant as the topic is manned flight.  A coordinated aircraft will fly like it is on rails, end of story. 

 

Nothing I have said covers the conditions you keep bringing up or are reading into what I said such as take off or uncoordinated flight.

He actually isn't contradicting you, he is making the Point that it is the Pilot having to coordinate the Aircraft. 

[Crump]

Also, Wing Span, Aileron Differentiation, Length of Fuselage and Size of Rudder as well as Center of Gravity. 

 

A K-13 with me and Instructor (Heavy me in the Front Seat + FI) will not Spin, whereas a light 65kg Girl without Passenger is at risk of Flatspinning if she isn't Careful, all in the same Aircraft. That's why Trim Weights exist. 

 

A DG500 with it's long Tail requires far less Rudder and Aileron in tight turns than a K-13, which you have to fly with Controls almost completely opposed, due to the much longer tail and further back Cg.

 

The P-40 doesn't have the best of relations in that sense, given it's stubby fuselage, rather small Rudder in relation to Weight, Center of Gravity (with rear tank filled) and large Wingspan and very little Aileron Differentiation. 

 

 

Keep in mind you are missing the tractor propeller stabilizing effect due to increased dynamic pressure on the tail.  Depending on Cg location and trim coefficient it can be a significant stabilizing factor.

[Hoots]

He actually isn't contradicting you, he is making the Point that it is the Pilot having to coordinate the Aircraft.

 

Thanks

[Crump]

He actually isn't contradicting you, he is making the Point that it is the Pilot having to coordinate the Aircraft. 

 

That is what I said in my first post.  Not sure why it has been the topic of several postings now.  Lets move on.

[Hoots]

That is what I said in my first post.  Not sure why it has been the topic of several postings now.  Lets move on.

I'm sorry crump but you didn't. But yes, let's move on.

[Crump]

I'm sorry crump but you didn't.

 

Why would you think I did not?  

 

I am in fact telling you and clearing up any misunderstanding you have on what I said and you are taking uncoordinated flight conditions, trying to use non-typical realms of flight to contradict a general statement about aircraft behavior in coordinated flight.  It is that simple.

 

 

 

He does not seem to have heard about ailerons or the use of them to bank the aircraft. The plane only "comes around smoothly," as we have seen, in coordinated flight.

 

 

 

 You know, just enough pedal pressure to keep the airplane pointing straight, like it's on rails.

 

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/rudder-trim-out-of-whack.50107/

 

 

 

The yaw damper is another valuable addition and only available with the Cirrus Perspective flight deck.  Combined with the Garmin GFC-700 autopilot the yaw damper really smooths the ride out. It coordinates the rudder with the autopilot during approaches. En route it offsets yaw from winds and thermals. And, pilot workload on the right rudder is eliminated during climbs. It’s why many pilots and passengers say the plane flys like it’s on rails.

 

https://wikiwings.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/the-cirrus-aircraft-passenger-experience/

 

You know what a Yaw damper is right?  More correctly it should be called a "slip damper" as it smooths out the rudder inputs by the pilot to help him maintain coordinated flight.  It is not required on most aircraft and is generally found in aircraft (like many jets) which can have some nasty dutch roll due to yaw-roll coupling characteristics of the design.  It is a band-aid to cover the engineers mistakes or design constraints such as transonic flight AC movement.  Most aircraft with YD have severe limitations on their flight envelope without the YD engaged because of the design and cannot be considered typical of a World War II tractor propeller design.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Crump

[Hoots]

Crump mate, you're knowledge on all aeronautical engineering matters is impressive. Your ability to explain it to the average layman is, alas, woeful. And yes I do know the points you make above.

 

So, yes, yes you are correct and I am wrong. There you go chuck

[Crump]

One could also say your ability to jump on minutia and propagate the atypical to the typical is impressive.   However I do not think you were necessarily doing that.  As with anything, the communication is dependent on both the messenger and the message.  My post was a generalization about aircraft behavior.  It was not meant to be a class only a statement that aircraft do fly like their are on rails in their normal condition of flight.  NORMAL condition of flight is coordinated flight.  Nobody designs an aircraft with the intention it will be flown around uncoordinated so why making the point about anything else simply did not make much sense to me.

 

 

I certainly do not pretend to know everything about aircraft.  I just pass along what I know from college and my career experience/certifications.   There is a reason why you do not teach aeronautical science on an internet gaming BBS because communication is poor no matter what is explained.   There is always some expert who will come along to feed their ego trying to demonstrate their knowledge.  It is easy to do.  Aerodynamics is extremely condition of flight dependant and there are exceptions to many of the rules because of that.  Making those general rules invalid because of those exceptions is not correct and only contributes to creating confusion without clear understanding of the conditions. 

 

You are right and I am wrong, Chuck.   

Edited January 1, 2017 by Crump

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Only limited powered flight expirience (Breezer (UL) and motorized glider (Dimona)) but from my expirience both were not as stable as "on rails". Worse of the 2 was the Breezer known for having bad elevator response and being quite twichty/wobbly (the first time I took controlls I had a hard time keeping the altitude because the aircraft's attitude changed threwout without noticeable controll input changes). Not a lot to say about the Dimona because it has a way bigger wingspan and is a more stable aircraft altough it also reqiured constant stick pressure to go straight.

 

As for gliders, which is where my main flight expirience comes from, the only one I could eventually recall as flying on rails is the ASK21 (fully laden and well trimmed it will stay in thermals without touching the stick). Older ones like the K8 or K7 are more twitchy than modern gliders but not as bad as the 109 F4 ingame (might also be because those have lionger sticks + higher deflection angles which makes it easier to apply fine controll inputs).

 

The idea of an aircraft "flying on rails" is idealistic since as soon as you add external influrences (torque, wind, turbulence, thermals, Gs) the aircraft will be brought back to an unstable state.

[TempestV]

Didn't feel like reading 16 page string.

FWIW this opened a few doors. Your mileage will vary depending on your joystick. A few of the posts I read are along the same vein.

Apologies if it is already posted,

 

[Dakpilot]

Totally nothing to do with the BoS issue

 

But in all my flying from Chipmunk to to Jets to 100 ton cargo A/C the term "on rails" is as far from a description I would think of using regards to flying as I could think of 

 

just me though, no one is wrong with an opinion about a feeling 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crump]

If you cannot feel the difference between coordinated flight and uncoordinated then you are at a HUGE disadvantage as a pilot whatever your opinion about the meaning of "on rails".  Most computer flight simulations are not good representations of flight in this regard.  They end being much more twitchy than the actual aircraft.

 

That is why I have never gotten a type rating and had the sim instructor tell me, "Yeah, it flies just like the actual aircraft."  The reality is the sims are much more twitchy than the airplane.

Only limited powered flight expirience (Breezer (UL) and motorized glider (Dimona)) but from my expirience both were not as stable as "on rails". Worse of the 2 was the Breezer known for having bad elevator response and being quite twichty/wobbly (the first time I took controlls I had a hard time keeping the altitude because the aircraft's attitude changed threwout without noticeable controll input changes). Not a lot to say about the Dimona because it has a way bigger wingspan and is a more stable aircraft altough it also reqiured constant stick pressure to go straight.

 

As for gliders, which is where my main flight expirience comes from, the only one I could eventually recall as flying on rails is the ASK21 (fully laden and well trimmed it will stay in thermals without touching the stick). Older ones like the K8 or K7 are more twitchy than modern gliders but not as bad as the 109 F4 ingame (might also be because those have lionger sticks + higher deflection angles which makes it easier to apply fine controll inputs).

 

The idea of an aircraft "flying on rails" is idealistic since as soon as you add external influrences (torque, wind, turbulence, thermals, Gs) the aircraft will be brought back to an unstable state.

 

 

Most of this has to do with atmospheric conditions and NOT the airplane.  Gliders do not fly as well in stable atmospheric conditions since it usually IFR.

[Crump]

 

Almost every pilot understands the basic concept of convection-created updrafts, or thermals, as they are known to soaring types.

 

 

Glider flight is best conducted in an unstable atmosphere.  Unstable atmospheric conditions ruins the feel of the aircraft in comparison to a stable atmosphere.

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/why-fly-gliders

 

There is NO movement in the atmosphere in stable conditions and not the best gliding conditions at all.  No updrafts caused by convection, terrain, or frontal systems.

 

There is not a lot of discussion on glider piloting in stable atmospheric conditions. It is just not conducive to soaring and where most of your typical IFR flying occurs.

 

http://www.gliderbooks.com/downloads/H_Ch6.pdf

No wonder so many Glider pilots do not share the experience of flying on rails.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I did mentioned powered aircraft but you're free to ignore it.

 

Also only because gliders are best flown in unstable atmospheric conditions (which is well known to any glider pilot) doesn't mean no one has ever flown one in stable conditions. And you'll know those for sure when figuring your variometer shows a steady sinkrate at optimal gliding speed threwout the (rather short) flight.

Anyway this is drifting off into a different discussion.

 

[Crump]

Only limited powered flight expirience (Breezer (UL) and motorized glider (Dimona))

 

 

OK, you said you had limited experience so I did not ignore it...I just took you at your word....limited.   Additionally your experience is in Ultra lights and motorized gliders.  The lower an aircraft's wing loading, the more susceptible it is to gusting effects and atmospheric instability.  I am not saying you are wrong in YOUR experience but rather simply trying to see where it fits in comparison and why you reach a different conclusion from myself and the engineering textbooks.

 

My experience in powered aircraft is limited to several thousand hours gathered upon 29 different A/C ranging from large transport category jets, agricultural aircraft, and aerobatic designs.  That is not bragging or attempting to invalidate your experience just simply stating the position and experience I have gained.  It includes several type ratings, ATP rating, and Part 121 PIC time (Airline Captain).  I fly in IFR conditions (stable atmosphere) quite often.  That explains our different conclusion without any need for your hostility or defensiveness.

 

 

The idea of an aircraft "flying on rails" is idealistic since as soon as you add external influrences (torque, wind, turbulence, thermals, Gs) the aircraft will be brought back to an unstable state.

 

It is not really idealistic, you just do not fly in stable atmospheric conditions as often.  Which brings up the point of "wobbly" aircraft in the game being subjected to atmospheric modeling effects.  IRL, you want to maintain a constant pitch angle when penetrating turbulence and atmospheric instability which would nicely explain the reason dampening your pitch inputs helps eliminate some of the wobbling.  

[StG2_Manfred]

Wasn't the thread about why some planes (P-40s and 109s) wobble more than others?

[Dakpilot]

It devolved from that 15 pages and 13 months ago...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[BOO]

Didn't feel like reading 16 page string.

FWIW this opened a few doors. Your mileage will vary depending on your joystick. A few of the posts I read are along the same vein.

Apologies if it is already posted,

 

This should be put at the start of this thread and again at the end with a little note saying "THIS is the useful bit" 

[StG2_Manfred]

Well Boo, probably this helps (a bit), but it doesn't explain why they wobble so much more than the other planes.

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

It devolved from that 15 pages and 13 months ago...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

It will probably become a 190 thread soon. 

[StG2_Manfred]

It devolved from that 15 pages and 13 months ago...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

It will probably become a 190 thread soon. 

 

[BOO]

Point Taken Manfred but mileage must vary because my 109 doesn't really wobble at all after i listened to bismark's advice is all can say.  So, in my case at least. it helped a lot, and to the point id even say i dont need to know why they wobble because mine dont (at least not any more than the 109 or Spit does in Clod).  

 

Kind Regards

 

BOO

[Crump]

This should be put at the start of this thread and again at the end with a little note saying "THIS is the useful bit" 

 

That is pretty much it.  Unless the community thinks it is helpful to believe airplanes normally act like that.

[Dakpilot]

The 109F/G wobbles for the same reason the 109E (improved FM) doesn't = Dev's know, have acknowledged and is for future patch

 

P-40 wobbles because it is not very stable in the first place, exaggerated (big rudder/tail) by wrong roll/yaw coupling of all aircraft = Dev's know, have acknowledged and is for a future patch

 

the thread was dead for a year, the first reply linked the 'workaround vid'

 

there is not much more to left to say so drifts off topic = normal 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[StG2_Manfred]

The 109F/G wobbles for the same reason the 109E (improved FM) doesn't = Dev's know, have acknowledged and is for future patch

 

P-40 wobbles because it is not very stable in the first place, exaggerated (big rudder/tail) by wrong roll/yaw coupling of all aircraft = Dev's know, have acknowledged and is for a future patch

 

 

Really? Must have missed. Can you point me to these statements please!

[Wuerger]

The 109F/G wobbles for the same reason the 109E (improved FM) doesn't = Dev's know, have acknowledged and is for future patch

 

 

That's exactly what I read some time ago. 

 

So it is not the pilot who is to blame nor is his joystick. If 109 did wobble like in game, no one would ever have achieved 100 or 200 kills nor would anyone have had a single succesful ground attack. That is all that is to say imho.  

Edited January 2, 2017 by Wuerger

[Holtzauge]

Yup, will be nice when we get an ingame Gustav that behaves like this!

[Dakpilot]

DD#120

 

complex tasks

 

9. Improve flight model control tools that will make development process of new aircraft FMs more efficient;

10. Additional research of airplane sideslip angle influence on plane roll;

 

regular tasks

 

9. Correct 'jumpy' behavior of Bf 109 F4, G2 and F2 to resemble E7 behavior and check other planes;

 

Both of these have been discussed since (particularly the Yaw/sideslip roll/coupling) by Dev's in other DD's/places but I'm not going to look for them now 

 

I guess that the first issue (point 10) needs to be implemented before it is worth spending much time correcting 109

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[StG2_Manfred]

Well, thanks so far Dakpilot, but I'm not sure about the 'jumpy behavior' of the 109s. If I remember correctly one was asking Han about and he pointed him to the changelog where the changed taxi behavior was introduced.... Nevertheless I hope you're right and I'm wrong....

[StG2_Manfred]

So, my mind serves me right, seems there is no correction of the wobbling planned....

 

Chandalier1969, on 25 Aug 2016 - 21:46, said:

Hi guys. Any news/eta on this as per DD120: 9. Correct 'jumpy' behavior of Bf 109 F4, G2 and F2 to resemble E7 behavior and check other planes;

it will be in 2.004. Look for DD 131.

 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/?p=392924

Edited January 2, 2017 by StG2_Manfred

[Dakpilot]

Am sure I read somewhere more about 109...?

 

this I hope will have deep reaching effects on all aircraft including 109 pitch reactions

 

We were able to establish the root cause of some excessive roll reactions of our aircrafts on the rudder. Oddly enough, we reached the proper behavior of the aircraft through more detailed modeling of the fuselage aerodynamics. By the way, I never cease to be surprised at how bizarre and sometimes non-trivial relationships of aerodynamics and flight dynamics are woven together, when the solution of the problem in the end is not quite where you expected it to be. Nevertheless, we have conducted a number of internal experiments with one of the airplanes, and they showed very good results: the ailerons deviation for slip compensation significantly reduced, the aircraft has acquired the ability to perform deep coordinated sideslip, including at low airspeeds, which is useful on final approach. And when pushing the pedal with the fixed stick the aircraft instead of performing a roll begin to fall into a bank putting the nose down.

The successful completion of this research will enable us to further refine the behavior of our aircrafts on these flight regimes. However, the implementation of this research results for all aircrafts in IL-2 BoS/BoM/BoK requires a lot of time. We hope to have this opportunity during 2017.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Bill1949]

I realise this is old, but was looking for info re the 'wobble' that we experience - & I apologise if this (mainly point 3, below) has been mentioned already (really haven't the time to read all 16 pages but I read a few).

 

Here's my tuppence-worth...

I downloaded IL2 (Blitz) a few days ago & have spent most of that time getting to know it & setting it up - so only a couple of hours actually trying to do combat in it. I also use DCS, FSX & War Thunder.

IRL I've only ever had controls of a Piper Cherokee (for just 1.5hrs).... so I'm not at all experienced.

 

Some of my thoughts are:

1. Yes, each plane will have its own flight & 'wobble' characteristics - but we can create plane-dedicated config files & load them as required for each plane.
2. I'm sure that adjusting controls suitably must affect the degree of 'wobble'. (Maybe the sensitivities, in particular.)
   
   but mainly.....
    
3. Re my initial apology, when flying the Cherokee (OK - a very stable plane as far as I understand) I found none of the 'wobble' that this thread refers to, but in IL2 Blitz this wobble makes aiming EXTREMELY difficult - especially if the target plane takes evasive, as it should.
   The thing that hits me in the face is that in a flight sim at home we don't have the benefit of the balancing effect that our inner-ears provide during actual flight - we can only respond to what we SEE in screen.
   To me, the absence of this physical sense is massively important (&, of course, we cannot replicate it - we cannot FEEL the G-force effects of our turn (which should be present even a gentle turn), and the un-felt effects of a very tight turn in combat only become really evident by the screen going black (or red)....... 
   So my overall feeling (ATM) is that the 'wobble' effects (even if  they might be accurately replicated in the Flight Model) are more than we should be reasonably expected to deal with properly without the ability to FEEL the in-flight G-forces.
   
   Any thoughts?

 

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Bill1949

[unreasonable]

My main thought is that you are in the wrong forum: IL-2 Blitz is an edition of IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (aka CLOD).   This is the forum for IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad series: different developer and engine, feeling of flight somewhat different.   There is a CLOD sub forum if you want to discuss CLOD specifically.

 

As to your general point about lack of feel which applies to all flight sims - of course this is a problem but people get used to it with practice. You only have to see some of the videos of the MP aces to see that most of them have no difficulty adjusting for "wobble".

 

You are probably better off starting a new thread than reviving this long dead one: the game has changed a fair bit since this was originally posted.

[Bill1949]

24 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

My main thought is that you are in the wrong forum: IL-2 Blitz is an edition of IL-2 Cliffs of Dover (aka CLOD).   This is the forum for IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad series: different developer and engine, feeling of flight somewhat different.   There is a CLOD sub forum if you want to discuss CLOD specifically.

 

As to your general point about lack of feel which applies to all flight sims - of course this is a problem but people get used to it with practice. You only have to see some of the videos of the MP aces to see that most of them have no difficulty adjusting for "wobble".

 

You are probably better off starting a new thread than reviving this long dead one: the game has changed a fair bit since this was originally posted.

 

Many thanks sir. As mentioned, I'm just a baby in IL2 - didn't realise that there were such differences (between versions) in the way it works. I should try the CLOD sub-forum then. Also, as a 'baby', I do appreciate that I have much to learn & to get used to ?. I'm sure my settings will improve, & hopefully so will my ability to cope with the wobble. We also get this in WT to a degree of course, & in DCS (but not as much as IL2). It's expected, but IL2 caught me out a bit with its degree of wobble - but I'll continue to work on my settings in IL2 to see if it helps (also on my settings in TrackIR....).
 

PS - "MP aces"...? MultiPlayer...? Are you able to save me the searching by pointing me at a good example MP Ace vid?
Also, I realise that we ALL will suffer the wobble of course, so that's a 'levelling' factor - this 'levelling' being highlighted by the fact that in my first proper IL2 Blitz MP battle I did get 2 air-kills (both same player, so maybe he was inexperienced), so I guess it should improve for me with time.

 

Thx again for your response to such an old thread ?.....