Would you rather have a new Battle of X that follows BOM and BOS(plane capabilities) or would you like something new?

[TheElf]

Yes, or not much new growth anyway. While I agree with this and much of your post, I'd be cautious about porting raw numbers over for a niche combat flight sim market. While the potential is there, using raw numbers for your argument is as much tenuous ground as Lucas' argument against. The popularity of every other scenario you posted above would probably outweigh the raw numbers of potential subscribers by going to China/Burma.

 

Edit*

 

I completely agree with your next post after that one and have advocated moving out from the East for a round or two before going back in several other posts (for the same reasons as you).

 

 

Sometimes in order for a point to be understood you have to deal in the simplest terms.  In this case raw numbers of PC owners, and how those numbers stack up in terms of interest based solely on those countries being represented by the next Battle of XXX.  Obviously those numbers do not parse out Tablet vs Desktop vs Laptop, but the law of averages applies across all markets.  Even if 50% of PC owners in Russia played BoS/BoM every day, and took an unrealistic 10% of all other countries who own PCs how many new players might that yield if a new front drew them in?   Hhow much capital would that raise for the Franchise.  Heck, maybe they could afford to hire new talent and we'd see an increase in the rate in which new content is added.  How happy would that make everyone here?

 

That post was just to illustrate how far off the mark Lucas' post was about the Russian Market.

 

I am not a statistician, I only wanted to open some eyes to the truth of the PC market.  The US Pioneered PC gaming in the 1990's when Russia was still coming out of the Soviet coma, and despite the console revolution, which is petering out a bit BTW, the US is still the largest PC market in the world by a long shot.

Edited November 11, 2015 by TheElf

[Dakpilot]

Funny that no Western/U.S. company has taken advantage of this massive potential WWII combat flight sim market, and made something for it, in the last 15 years or so...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Getting the West hooked on this title would also have the potential to get them to buy into future Eastern chapters which they might not otherwise. Staying in the East for now before moving West just keeps these potential customers on the sidelines and they will probably not backdate and buy the earlier Eastern titles later. Get em in now and you can maximize sales when you go back East because they will have seen what the title promises.

Dak, it is a niche and I'm delighted our Russian friends have taken up the call. On this side of the pond the money is in FPS and consoles but there are plenty of pilots lurking around as well. If you build it, they will come. And if some talented small house had built it over here you'd probably be hearing the same arguments on that side of the pond.

 

Your guys took up the mantle. Us lonely Western pilots still want to play too. We built some pretty cool toys during the war as well.

Edited November 11, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Funny that no Western/U.S. company has taken advantage of this massive potential WWII combat flight sim market, and made something for it, in the last 15 years or so...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Did anyone? The market got saturated and then dried up just like the WWII FPS games. BTW, I'm ready for a return to a Battlefield style WWII series with a modern engine and graphics as well. Timing is alway important to the market.

[TheElf]

Funny that no Western/U.S. company has taken advantage of this massive potential WWII combat flight sim market, and made something for it, in the last 15 years or so...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

LOL Really?   777, Jason Williams.  C'mon Dak, you're going to have to do better than that!

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Isn't Jason Williams working as a producer with 777/former neoqb much like Matt Wagner works with Eagle Dynamics, also a Russian/Eastern European team?

[Skoop]

+1 for Kuban peninsula but I'd include Sevastopol since it's a major battle and changes hands numerous times so that map would be good for added value down the road.

+1

and +1 for Sevastopol added to the Kuban. That way we can sim the earlier battles there with the earlier AC we already have.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

You mean adding it like a smaller map or Crimea as a whole? I like the latter the most, obviously!

[Skoop]

The whole crimea.

[Feathered_IV]

With a Pacific Theatre addon you could release a module that follows the 10-aircraft formula and comfortably represent each combatants principle fighter, dive bomber and torpedo aircraft, and still have four slots open for floatplanes, patrol aircraft and land-based types.  While in the ETO you can peck away at various fighters and twin jobs and still have any number of glaring omissions.

[indiaciki]

Africa - mediterrinian incl Marseille and italy maybe the Adria. Lots of water - very large map with little terrain to be modelled an lots of aircraft. long distance flying. That would be great. Just add some Spits and Hurricanes and that would work. Huge theatre with less tarrain than BOS and BOM

Edited November 12, 2015 by indiaciki

[TheElf]

With a Pacific Theatre addon you could release a module that follows the 10-aircraft formula and comfortably represent each combatants principle fighter, dive bomber and torpedo aircraft, and still have four slots open for floatplanes, patrol aircraft and land-based types.  While in the ETO you can peck away at various fighters and twin jobs and still have any number of glaring omissions.

 

Exactly.  Other benefits to a Pacific Module

 

1.  The map has only one season.  Easier to make and only one version is necessary. 

2.  Many Pacific Maps have lots of water, lots of trees, and very little civilization.  

3.  Carrier operations become a possibility.

 

Early War Pacific Maps would have much overlap with Eastern Front

 

Battle of Port Moresby

 

Allies

 

P-39  (also Eastern Front)

F4F-3

SBD-3

TBD Devastator 

 

Already have P-40 but could add an earlier Variant

 

Premium

A-20  (Comatible with VVS Lend Lease)

 

 

Release a special edition Flying boat

PBY-3   (compatible with VVS Lend Lease)

 

Axis  

 

A6M2 Zero

G4M Betty

D3A Val

B5N Kate

 

Premium

G3M Nell

 

Release a special edition flying boat afterward 

Kawanishi Type 97 "Mavis"

 

Map would be Eastern portion of Papua New Guinea and New Britain (where Rabual is).

 

If you added carriers you could fight both Port Moresby and the Coral Sea, and later the advance on Rabaul by P-38s, P-47s, and Corsairs vs. Ki-61, Ki-43 II, and A6M3 and A6M5

[simplyjames]

... and later the advance on Rabaul by P-38s, P-47s, and Corsairs vs. Ki-61, Ki-43 II, and A6M3 and A6M5

This would be amazing. These planes in this engine would be bliss.

[Reflected]

Very good pro and con agruments here.

 

Pro East:

Russia is a massive market, and it would be a very logical step to move on to a later Eastern Front battle that has 109 G-6s and Spitfire Vb-s, not to mention completing the line of VVS fighters. It's still a niche market, with 777 being the only option here. Also, with this planeset it would be a matter of creating a map to move to the Mediterranean.

 

Pro PTO:

If we had a BoK(ursk) or whatever, that would be released, say, in 2017, which would mean they'd ignore the rest of the world (market) until at least 2018/19. Then it's a question of how saturated the Russian market is already, and how much of the Western customers stay away because they don't care about Yaks and Lavochkins?

PTO would be an ideal choice, because:

- not a large variety of planes at a time

- only one season

- most of the map is water

- nobody touched this theater since PF

- Carrier ops - I can't even imagine how cool it would be with the physics the 777 engine has...

- As opposed to former commenters I would not go for an early war planeset there. I would make sure the most popular ones are featured (Corsair/ Hellcat). Something like the Marianas.

- Opens the opportunity to have player controlled ships - not sure how difficult it would be, even if just at an arcade level.

- Such a title would quickly conquer the US market, and also Japan.

[Feathered_IV]

TheElf, on 12 Nov 2015 - 16:52, said:

... and later the advance on Rabaul by P-38s, P-47s, and Corsairs vs. Ki-61, Ki-43 II, and A6M3 and A6M5

This would be amazing. These planes in this engine would be bliss.

 

Rabaul would be incredible. 

[Brano]

@ Pacific

I remember from old sturmovik times that every time our czech-slovak community server loaded pacific map,most of blue players disconnected.Very few "LW" pilots where willing to burn in zekes...

SP would be very boring with huge distances to cover.Even with eastern front people complain to fly missions that merely take 30min to fly.

MP will require scaled maps to be anything close to fun.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

There were more than enough possible locations during the "island hopping" campaign. Also some battles like Guadalcanal lasted quite long over both sea and terrain, so the "endless water" excuse us just weak (theres no difference for me flying over water or empty savannes in Afrika).

 

Another benefit of pacific (island) maps is that due to most (not most important) areas being covered by water terrain can be modeled more detailed (higher res textures, more props) in return. Thats partucularly important when thinking about huge jungles and naval fortifications around the island.

 

Don't know if it would be wise to sell a late war scenario first, I'd consider a historical-chronologic release better (unless they leave it by one PTO expansion only).

Edited November 12, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Just a thought - considering the timelines Reflected presented, which I hadn't considered before. What if the devs did move away to separate map development?

 

Make two small premium aircraft packs that work both ways, then create a Kuban and Mediterranean map.

 

We already have the Bf-109E-7 until G-2, Ju-87, He-111H-6, Ju-88A-4, MC.202 and the P-40E, right? Then create a fighter pack with the Spitfire Mk.Vb (where the Vokes filter is an optional loadout) and P-39N for the Allies, and either a IAR 81+Bf-109G-6 or an Italian fighter (not sure who's best here, Cr.42, G.50 or MC.200) and a bomber pack with the A-20C and the Spaviero, perhaps adding an Il-4 and Hs-129 for good measure.

 

The maps would have the appropriate aircraft as campaign/QMB adversaries for whomever is not buying the full thing, and would offer a good stepping stone for those waiting out on Western designs other than the P-40E (poor thing, so beautiful and iconic yet so slow ). From there one can easily take the Spitfire, Kittyhawk, Airacobra and Boston for a Pacific/Far East scenario and so on.

 

As a side note, for those across the pond: just out of curiosity do you feel the people you know are waiting because of the aircraft or the campaigns themselves?

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Guys what about Norway?

[Dutchvdm]

Guys what about Norway?

 

Very nice country indeed, but the booze is way to expensive... 

[Trinkof]

Just a question, everyone talks about MTO, and business consideration....

 

Regarding business, how is selling twice the same aircraft to players in 2 different package a good thing?

 

And make an MTO expansion without F4 or E7 or junker is a pretty bad idea also...

 

Kuban on the other hand, allow to release some lend lease aircraft, in a full 10 aircraft package.... And release later, or made by a 3rd party, an MTO map, where you can use those plane....

 

This would be much smarter regarding business.

 

As for the Western theater.... No scenario come up to my mind where a flight Sim with 2015 technology could render something realistic regarding the tactics and number of aircraft employed.... If this is about playing like the eastern front ( well suited for pc gaming) with Western plane..... Well Kuban is good enough

[EAF19_Marsh]

About Kursk... the German side of the equation, Operation Citadel, was fairly short lasting only a few days but that doesn't mean we couldn't have a good campaign. The Soviet counter offensive, Operation Kutuzov lasted another month into the middle of August and it would cover the same basic map area.

 

There was a buildup and stagnation for weeks before Citadel too so we could easily have enough for a 3 part campaign with a pre-battle status quo, Operation Citadel, and Operation Kutuzov.

 

I'd still like to see the Kuban battles as well... mostly for the scenery and because I know players would love having the P-39. But I suspect the next iteration will have the P-39 no matter what.

 

I made some mock-up maps in another thread; the 'BoK' map made to current dimensions would be quite large

 

Almost anything that they choose would involve  a P-39, so maybe they could start that first as an extra DLC (I'd buy it)

 

Or start an official-but-non-binding poll to find out what people thing?

[Redwo1f]

Well, there are senarios that can lead well into an eventual Med. release, there are senarios that  can lead well into a Pacific release. But regardless, to jump to either right after Moscow I think would taxing and foolish for the company. Get another eastern front conflict in and get those lend lease aircraft in. If eventual intent is Pacific, get in that Airacobra (which is iconic on the Russian front anyway) and A-20, if Med., get in that Hurricane (but gosh I am so Spitfire and Hurricane'd out from other flight sims :/ ) - but these guys need to make a long term plan now, and not go willie-nilley.

 

Also, there has been some assumptions by some that the consumer demand is very "variable"...I am not sure I share that sentiment and believe in a much more fixed consumer demand for this niche combat flight sim market - 1C/777 needs to make decisions that are profitable for them, but also very smart resource wise. I am kinda thinking it would  be financially beneficial for them to encourage sales of previous releases to enhance current releases (eg. in the future P-39 available as "flyable" in Pacific if consumer already owned, for example Kursk (hypothetical release) - otherwise AI only, etc.(or at the very least rewarding previous purchasers and having the aircraft as an add-on purchasable for those who do not and want to fly it)...but this is just me pondering ways of increasing revenue and sales. Regardless, I am happy as hell we have a new modern combat flight sim and wish very much for this company to succeed.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Redwo1f

[-TBC-AeroAce]

It would be really cool if the devs could give us three options and then will all voted for what one we want but try to take proportional representation into account so the bigger countries don't brute force it

[TheElf]

It would be really cool if the devs could give us three options and then will all voted for what one we want but try to take proportional representation into account so the bigger countries don't brute force it

 

This is a great, fair way of progressing but I am afraid the current demographics of the community (mostly Russian) would weigh heavily in the outcome....

[TheElf]

Just a thought - considering the timelines Reflected presented, which I hadn't considered before. What if the devs did move away to separate map development?

 

Make two small premium aircraft packs that work both ways, then create a Kuban and Mediterranean map.

 

We already have the Bf-109E-7 until G-2, Ju-87, He-111H-6, Ju-88A-4, MC.202 and the P-40E, right? Then create a fighter pack with the Spitfire Mk.Vb (where the Vokes filter is an optional loadout) and P-39N for the Allies, and either a IAR 81+Bf-109G-6 or an Italian fighter (not sure who's best here, Cr.42, G.50 or MC.200) and a bomber pack with the A-20C and the Spaviero, perhaps adding an Il-4 and Hs-129 for good measure.

 

The maps would have the appropriate aircraft as campaign/QMB adversaries for whomever is not buying the full thing, and would offer a good stepping stone for those waiting out on Western designs other than the P-40E (poor thing, so beautiful and iconic yet so slow ). From there one can easily take the Spitfire, Kittyhawk, Airacobra and Boston for a Pacific/Far East scenario and so on.

 

As a side note, for those across the pond: just out of curiosity do you feel the people you know are waiting because of the aircraft or the campaigns themselves?

 

 

I think you are onto something.  I refrained from this sort of suggestion as I favor the 10 plane model, but I do believe that "bonus packs" and limited edition releases of aircraft would be a huge benefit to the current business model.

 

As I said in a previous post, mapping another more tropical locale would be easier given the lack of seasons.  Combine any new Theater module release with enough Eastern Front compatible planes, perhaps a few Special Plane pack, specifically for the Eastern Front and you can keep everyone happy to a certain extent.

 

- A 10 plane Pacific module like I suggested w/ several Lend leasable EF Aircraft but with only 1 single season pacific Map

 

- A special edition floatplane pack (PBY, H6K, Beriev MBR-2, He-115) three of these could be used on the EF.

 

- A Eastern Front variant pack for Current EF planes (La-5FN, Yak-7/9, Bf-109G-4, FW-190A-4)  Shouldn't be hard to modify current models.  Not starting from scratch here...What needs to change to get an La-5FN from an La-5?  A G-4 from a G-2???

 

- A special release single season (summer) map for the Eastern front  (Kuban? Crimea? Kursk?)  Workload for a map maker would be reduced given the nature of the Pacific Map (hell it's either sand or trees or water...)

 

Rather than a year plus development cycle for a massive new add on work in the seams and expand the game to new heights and simultaneously draw in more Western players and capital...

[-TBC-AeroAce]

This is a great, fair way of progressing but I am afraid the current demographics of the community (mostly Russian) would weigh heavily in the outcome....

Hence proportional representation I.e u compare number of votes as a percentage of votes per nation. Would still need to be treated very carefully and fyi I was more scared of the ameicans voting for a pacific theater

[Mysticpuma]

If it includes a Razorback P-47 and/or a P-51B/C, I don't care what the battle is

[BraveSirRobin]

Club Med can be marketed to almost everyone (including the Russians, as many aircraft could be used in current or future east front battles).

[TheElf]

Hence proportional representation I.e u compare number of votes as a percentage of votes per nation. Would still need to be treated very carefully and fyi I was more scared of the ameicans voting for a pacific theater

 

 

ahh, I see.  Yes I suppose that might work.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

- A Eastern Front variant pack for Current EF planes (La-5FN, Yak-7/9, Bf-109G-4, FW-190A-4)  Shouldn't be hard to modify current models.  Not starting from scratch here...What needs to change to get an La-5FN from an La-5?  A G-4 from a G-2???

 

- A special release single season (summer) map for the Eastern front  (Kuban? Crimea? Kursk?)  Workload for a map maker would be reduced given the nature of the Pacific Map (hell it's either sand or trees or water...)

 

I don't think we even need that variant pack for current Eastern Front planes. The La-5, Yak-1, Bf-109E-7 up to G-2 and Fw-190A-3 were present in most of the Kuban battles, and many were in Kursk too. All we need is a P-39, but variants are debatable. The P-39N started showing up from May until the end of summer, but these were reserved for the top dogs so to say. The P-39D was relatively short-lived, and then there were the L/K/M variants that filled the gaps in between but no individual type of these was produced above 300 units or so. I guess the P-39N would be the most adequate after all.

 

I think the Med might  be a better step since it drags the Brits, Free French, Americans and Italians in all at once and the scenario is also simple - sand, lots and lots of sand. Here, have some more sand. Tiny village here. Water. Sand.

 

Well, I don't know. Surely the devs have some bigger insight than I do, and considering the decision makers are both Russian and American they know their markets

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

in short... pacific..please... with carrier operations...please

[MigSu]

BoK - Battle of Kuban

 

 

Axis:

109 G6

190 A5

Hs 129

Do 217

Premium:

IAR 80/81

"Platin"(additional 20€ and you get a platin bar and all skins unlocked):

Ju52

 

Allies:

Yak 9D

La 5FN

Tu-2

 IL-4

Premium:

P 39D

"Platin":

Po-2

It's ok now.

 Both F and FN were developed in parallel.

 As they put the best of german as was in 1941BOM and 1942BOS, so have to be best of BOTH sides in kursk/Kuban 1943

(La5FN for VVS) 

 

 That is what i think, any Kursk or Kuban is ok for me, but 1943 best planes of each one, and nos just for Luftwaffe.

 

Regards

Edited November 12, 2015 by MigSu

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

BoK - Battle of Kuban

 

Axis:

109 G6

190 A5

Hs 129

Do 217

Premium:

IAR 80/81

"Platin"(additional 20€ and you get a platin bar and all skins unlocked):

Ju52

 

Allies:

Yak 9D

La 5F

Tu-2

 IL-4

Premium:

P 39D

"Platin":

Po-2

I think this would be a perfect plane-set. 

 

It would probably be easier for the devs to create that when considering we already got the La-5 and many wants the later version and we got the Ju-52 in AI ready.

 

The IL-4, Yak-9 and especially the Ju-52 would be awesome!

[Sokol1]

Example a german plane-set with Ju-52 that covers transport, dropping paratroopers, medical evacuation, dropping aerial supplies and a F1-156 Storch that can do recon missions, find downed pilots, do special operations, medical evacuations...

 

The question is the actual gameplay don't have use for this things, transport function is just script in mission can be done by any plane, downed planes/pilots disappear in few instants... parachute troops for do what?  In il-2'46 serves only for lag the mission.   In WB online they blow up the control tower...   

 

Better tanks that flyable Ju-52 e cia.   

Edited November 12, 2015 by Sokol1

[MigSu]

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Don't get mw wrong I love the planes from pacific but weren't all the big air battles out at sea or over tiny islands. I think that would be quite boring besides the novelty of mastering that kind of flying

[Redwo1f]

Don't get mw wrong I love the planes from pacific but weren't all the big air battles out at sea or over tiny islands. I think that would be quite boring besides the novelty of mastering that kind of flying

New Guinea maybe  ...and this could be a move not really requiring carrier operations (easier for them to accomplish at least to start),..but what do I know.

[simplyjames]

As to the pacific being boring.... I figure since the map has one island on it its pretty clear where the action is. that 100 person server suddenly doesn't feel so empty.

[CheeseGromit]

Don't get mw wrong I love the planes from pacific but weren't all the big air battles out at sea or over tiny islands. I think that would be quite boring besides the novelty of mastering that kind of flying

 

It might make the ground attack role(s) less interesting if it's limited to bomb ship or torpedo ship missions.