Some questions after first impressions.

[=TIA=TBear]

I'm involved in flight simulation from more than 25 years and for almost same time in professional real flight.

I bought BoS standard version couple of weeks ago.

I started by doing offline campaigns..everything looks great, expecially the graphic angine.

I started to test offline all fighters and did some online sortie on some servers and i can say they give a good feeling and FMs seem quite good.

Im not big fan neither of Germans neither of russian aviation of WWII and im not so expert, so i have some questions about the fighters behaviour on the sim.

It seem to me at a first glance that the russian fighters have really grather performances than axis ones. Was it really like this?

Where devs took they data? Only from soviet archives or also from other sources, like captured aircrafts tests facilities archives?

Do the FM are made just from raw data implementation or are also fine tuned by adapting them to a performance comparison trough EM charts?

 

Thank in advance for answers

[6./ZG26_Custard]

.

 

It seem to me at a first glance that the russian fighters have really grather performances than axis ones. Was it really like this? Where devs took they data? Only from soviet archives or also from other sources, like captured aircrafts tests facilities archives? Do the FM are made just from raw data implementation or are also fine tuned by adapting them to a performance comparison trough EM charts?

 

 

 

All joking aside Bear I would suggest you check out the Forums as this is a hotly debated subject.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Hi there. 

 

The russian aircraft are generally good at turning and are more maneuverable but they are far more inferior to the german aircraft in the vertical i.e. Germans can out climb with ease

[6./ZG26_Emil]

If you are turn fighting in the 109 or 190 then you are doing it wrong. The Yak had a better turn rate than the G2 or 190, it's performance was best below 3-4k below which is where much of the fighting in RL and on the DF was/is done and so if you are flying within their best performance envelope you'd better be disciplined. 1V1 the Yak or Lagg/La-5 has no chance against the 109. The 190 is different and in game is best suited to slashing attacks at high speed, extending before your energy state gets low, climb and rinse and repeat.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Read through the many dev. diary entries to hear it from the devs themselves. A good read, worth the time.

 

Edit: forgot the link, here http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/#dd5

Edited September 24, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[=TIA=TBear]

Yes, i know that russian have better turning performance, but also seem that they also perform better in climbing and diving. In general, by what i see from piloting them, seem that russians loose much less energy and have very reliable engines...i thought it should be opposite..but probably im wrong...by the way i would really like to see the EM charts devs use and know from which histirical archives they come from.

[Finkeren]

Welcome. Always great to have new pilots join

 

Just a word of caution: You're poking a hornets nest with that first post.

 

I advise you to fly a bit in the Bf 109 F4 and then shift to the Yak or LaGG and experience the difference in performance. I think you'll quickly find, that your initial impression doesn't hold up.

 

Performance-wise all three German fighters are in the top tier. The Yak comes closest to offer a real challenge, because it outturns or can stay with all the German fighters and can outclimb the Fw 190 at low altitude. It's still slower than all German fighters at most altitudes, has inferior armament and more complex engine management.

[=TIA=TBear]

Sorry for my questions... I'm not used to fly BFs or Yaks..Im just a P51 driver in DCS and an Harrier pilot in real

[Finkeren]

No need to apologize. Asking questions is always encouraged, I just wanted to give you fair warning, so it wouldn't come as too much of a surprise if the thread blew up.

[Livai]

 

 

You're poking a hornets nest with that first post.

 

+1

 

There is one point what all forget ---> Both planes need to have the same speed and altitude to say who is better.

 

I just wish that we have the same balance System that the AI has if a player fly the plane and not the AI. This solve many things! 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Welcome TBear,

 

many years of flight simulation too, and 34 of RL flying :-) here ...

 

I'm in Il2 BoS primarily because it is the flight simulator, among all of the many I have used along the years,  that brings me closer to the sensation of flight.

 

Regarding air combat, I do not only find it uninteresting, but I also don't know a damn thing about details on these powerful ww2 aircraft, but using DCS World ww2 modules, and those in Il2 BoS, I started to get interested in finding out more about at least their main flight characteristics, the good and the bad...

 

Curiously, having been away from BoS for more than a month I took yesterday ( a holiday for me ) to fly online at some of the servers, and I decided to take the Russian fighters instead of the 109 F4.

 

I've read many lines and posts about the supposed advantage of these aircraft in the BoS implementation, but truth is that during yesterday's sessions as I was trying to fight a Fw190 and a G2, using first an La-5 and then a Yak-1, I was smashed or they simply got away from me easily, no matter how hard I tried to stay with them and, during fight, use my advantage.

 

Of course I am far from a reference as a simulator pilot, specially when it comes to air combat, but still, it was interesting for me to conclude that one of the major reasons I mostly fly the 109 F4, and even the 190, is that they are not only a lot easier to manage, but also extremely powerful against their opponents - I'd say the devs gave them a tide more advantage than to the Russian fighters, but I know that in fact, it appears that what really matters is in what hands you put each aircraft, and the experience the virtual pilot cares to gain with it, training and trying to understand what went wrong.

Edited September 24, 2015 by jcomm

[JG4_dingsda]

Used historical archives I learned so far:

 

F4, G2: http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2965-voprosy-razrabotchikam-2/page-5?do=findComment&comment=329653

You can find these: http://kurfurst.org/

 

La-5, Yak-1, Lagg-3:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2965-voprosy-razrabotchikam-2/page-5?do=findComment&comment=330512

Hope your russian is up for it.

Edited September 24, 2015 by JG4_dingsda

[SR-F_Winger]

Hi there. 

 

The russian aircraft are generally good at turning and are more maneuverable but they are far more inferior to the german aircraft in the vertical i.e. Germans can out climb with ease

Just. Dont. Tell him sich a generalised untrue storys please.

109 can outclimb all russians. Yes. 190 cant. Maybe the LAGG at certain heights. But not the LA5 and certainly not the YAKfo.

 

ARRGH. Finkeren.....

What you say simply isnt true.

The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190. It definately outclimbs you at almost all relevant heights.

YAK-1 is slower in level but dont you try to climb from it.

You cant generalise russians planes are far inferior. Thats simply not true! - Should be, in this scenario - but is not!

Edited September 24, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[JG4_dingsda]

[Addendum to my previous post]

As far as I can judge this question has not been answered yet:

"А какие документы использовались для настройки Fw 190A3?" (http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2965-voprosy-razrabotchikam-2/page-5?do=findComment&comment=333790)

Edited September 24, 2015 by JG4_dingsda

[=TIA=TBear]

As I told U I'm used to fly P51 in DCS, Spits or G50s in BoB. The feeling I have with Yaks is that they fly better than Spits. I just would like to compare some FM charts to understand what to do and what to not . The base of victory is knowledge

Edited September 24, 2015 by =TIA=TBear

[Trinkof]

About the Russian airplane : 

Post war, the french pilots from the normandy niemen, returned to France, and they had the occasion to test, (and then their new squadron flew), modern Western aircraft, like the Spitfire.... The anecdote says they were not impressed at all, and claimed for a long time that their beloved yak were far better  

There is probably some strong feeling between a pilot and his "ride" involved in this, but also that russian aircraft were very underestimated by westerners, and post war propaganda,claiming russian won just with numbers rather than with quality, did a lot of harm to their reputation to us, and probably biased a lot the look we all have over it.  

I fly russian a lot, but I have a personal rule to fly anything online, german and russian, to know my opponent ... and for fun !  

The yak in game is a very strong plane, and it is no surpprise that the yak 1 design gave birth to one of the very best WW2 fighter, if not the best, the yak 3 . 

This being said, like some people said here and in other topics, the yak flaps seem a little bit "strange" and Overpowered when used in combat, when they are supposed to be only landing flaps, and I agree with them on this part. 

Despite this, a lot of people claiming the Yak is an UFO (not talking about flaps here) do not play much (if not at all ) on the russian side... If you take time to play both side, especially the 109, you'll quickly see that the 109 clearly has the upper hand in anything but turning .... where it is very close !

Some clearly think the 109 should be strongly superior to anything .... the reality probably was that in late 1942 the difference was ony marginal... 

[=TIA=TBear]

So now I drop the bomb !! :D:D

...what about th MC 202 ???!!  

[Finkeren]

ARRGH. Finkeren.....

What you say simply isnt true.

The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190. It definately outclimbs you at almost all relevant heights.

YAK-1 is slower in level but dont you try to climb from it.

You cant generalise russians planes are far inferior. Thats simply not true! - Should be, in this scenario - but is not!

Not gonna start yet another long argument about this. All I can say is, that as someone who flies primarily on the 'other side', I have quite a different experience. From where I'm sitting I can find maybe 2 or 3 legitimate issues with the FM that really demands attention (Yak flaps is one, Fw 190 performance drop at medium altitude another)

 

If you want your grievances taken seriously, there really is no substitute for thorough testing.

[Jason_Williams]

I think you guys buried the lead. He says he flew Harriers in real life. Screw the sim, let's hear about the Harrier. :-)

 

Jason

[coconut]

Just. Dont. Tell him sich a generalised untrue storys please.

109 can outclimb all russians. Yes. 190 cant. Maybe the LAGG at certain heights. But not the LA5 and certainly not the YAKfo.

 

ARRGH. Finkeren.....

What you say simply isnt true.

The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190. It definately outclimbs you at almost all relevant heights.

YAK-1 is slower in level but dont you try to climb from it.

You cant generalise russians planes are far inferior. Thats simply not true! - Should be, in this scenario - but is not!

 

I know anecdotes are no statistics, but I've managed to escape a pair of La5s that initially had an height advantage on me while flying a 190. First I dived to 800kph. At this speed, you are pretty safe from anyone on your tail. Then I gradually let my plane climb, gently pulling on the stick. I also used emergency power during this phase. By the time I had slowed down to below 300kph, I was higher than my pursuers. The way I remember them, La5s are terrible at turning, and a climbing turn is a maneuver they will have a hard time following, exposing themselves as they pass under you.

 

[No601_Swallow]

I think you guys buried the lead. He says he flew Harriers in real life. Screw the sim, let's hear about the Harrier. :-)

 

Jason

 

Talking of British planes, and turning the thread back to the sim....   Cough-Hurri-Cough...   

Edited September 24, 2015 by No601_Swallow

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I think you guys buried the lead. He says he flew Harriers in real life. Screw the sim, let's hear about the Harrier. :-)

 

Jason

Was thinking the same thing... TBear, if it's OK to ask, do you fly with the USMC?

[=TIA=TBear]

IIm Italian, Former Navy officer. I had training with USMC but flew in Italian Navy. Actually I'm retired.

 

So guys...lets talk about Macchi 202 !

Edited September 24, 2015 by =TIA=TBear

[Finkeren]

So guys...lets talk about Macchi 202 !

 

Don't mind if we do. I still haven't gotten used to sit inside a sealed box peeking out through the small ventilation holes. Seriously the view from the cockpit is so bad I might as well be flying wearing a 13th century great helm for all the vision I'm allowed.

 

Not saying it's wrong, but you kinda get the sense why many Italian pilots prefered an open cockpit.

[Trinkof]

Don't mind if we do. I still haven't gotten used to sit inside a sealed box peeking out through the small ventilation holes. Seriously the view from the cockpit is so bad I might as well be flying wearing a 13th century great helm for all the vision I'm allowed.

 

Not saying it's wrong, but you kinda get the sense why many Italian pilots prefered an open cockpit.

Aside from this... The plane is a dream

[Finkeren]

Aside from this... The plane is a dream

Aside from being slower than an iPhone4 running iOS9, the I-16 is a great fighter, but that one thing is kinda important

[SR-F_Winger]

I know anecdotes are no statistics, but I've managed to escape a pair of La5s that initially had an height advantage on me while flying a 190. First I dived to 800kph. At this speed, you are pretty safe from anyone on your tail. Then I gradually let my plane climb, gently pulling on the stick. I also used emergency power during this phase. By the time I had slowed down to below 300kph, I was higher than my pursuers. The way I remember them, La5s are terrible at turning, and a climbing turn is a maneuver they will have a hard time following, exposing themselves as they pass under you.

 

Maybe re read. I wrote "The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190".

Your video is taken in normal server. Try that on expert settings where the LA5 can manually controll its coolers. Whole diffrent story i tell you.

Aside fromt he fact that what i see was an at best even energy encounter. The LAs were already turning with another blue and thus already had a lower energystate than you. Even thou they had the same height.

 

And btw. Did i mention that despite the issues i STILL have lots of fun with the sim?

It can only get better.

Edited September 25, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[Nonolem]

 

 

I've read many lines and posts about the supposed advantage of these aircraft in the BoS implementation, but truth is that during yesterday's sessions as I was trying to fight a Fw190 and a G2, using first an La-5 and then a Yak-1, I was smashed or they simply got away from me easily, no matter how hard I tried to stay with them and, during fight, use my advantage.

 

I totally agree. Those who are complaining about Russian planes, who will be "over modelled" should try a Yak 1 or a La 5 (not to mention a Lagg 3) sometimes. They will then enter in a totally different world, from the hunter's world to the preys' world.

[SFF_Esso]

Hello!

 

Well let's wait for the summer maps and warmer conditions. There should be more trouble to (keep) cool Russian engines with manual  adjustments as fully automated German planes. In winter there is no problem for any of them.

 

If warm summer weather do not give give them 'challenge' , then I'm worried. But let's see.

 

SFF_Esso

 

PS. By the way, every time I was shot down, there is some mistake I did before getting trouble.  Bad SA or E, not so much characteristics of plane.   So called pilots error. So record your 'full real' fights and see them after fight with icons on. You learn a lot (of Your mistakes)

[DD_Arthur]

Maybe re read. I wrote "The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190".

Your video is taken in normal server. Try that on expert settings where the LA5 can manually controll its coolers. Whole diffrent story i tell you.

 

 

Winger, for someone who's  pretty free with their accusations of bias, you seem to be in some ignorance of the basic functions of this game.

 

When you record a track the game records icons.  You can then choose whether to view these icons or not.  Think about it. 

[coconut]

 

 

Maybe re read. I wrote "The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190".

 

You wrote more than that actually, making your whole post sound quite pessimistic regarding the chances of an FW190 against an La5. But never mind, maybe it was me reading too much into it. My point is just that it's in fact not too hard to escape and even turn against your enemy.

 

 

 

Your video is taken in normal server.

No, it's recorded from a track from a game on a server with custom settings which were basically expert with longer mission time and external cams enabled.

 

 

 

Aside fromt he fact that what i see was an at best even energy encounter. The LAs were already turning with another blue and thus already had a lower energystate than you. Even thou they had the same height.

 

 

nahh, I don't think that's correct. I was turning after an AI myself. I was actually lucky not to go down with the first pass SkyWaxer did on me. After that we spiraled and I think he pulled a bit too hard on the stick, but he wasn't far behind. The energy difference can't have been that big.

[Matt]

 

 

Maybe re read. I wrote "The LA5 catches you if you dont fly emergencypower in a 190".

It's actually "The La-5 catches you if you don't fly with emergency power in a 190, as long as the La-5 is flying with emergency power". Which raises the question, why you would try to get away from a La-5 without using emergency power. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Trying to get away in a LA without emergency power is not as stupid as it sounds if it can be done. If you over heat you will have to open up the rads and that really kills your speed

Edited September 25, 2015 by [TBC]AeroACE

[Matt]

Well, he's talking that in his case, it can't be done and he doesn't have to open anything, because he's flying a 190. The La-5 will be the only one that overheats if both are flying with emergency power.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Well, he's talking that in his case, it can't be done and he doesn't have to open anything, because he's flying a 190. The La-5 will be the only one that overheats if both are flying with emergency power.

 

I know his edge!! 

 

I was just making the case that the la can only really use max power for a min or 2 before overheat and when that happens you are toast by killing your own engine or slowing and letting them get you

[Wulf]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong (certainly wouldn't be the first time if I am) but in my experience winning a foot-race, in a 190, against either a Yak or a La is far from certain.  Anyone who claims you can just 'floor it' and pull away from either aircraft is playing a different game to the one I have.    If you find yourself in a situation where either aircraft gets within a few hundred meters of your tail, with a similar energy state, escape will be difficult and uncertain to say the least.  If you just attempted to fly a straight line away from your enemies in such circumstances you'd almost certainly take some hits at which point it's usually over - unless 'friendlies intervene of course. So you will have to manage you engine power settings very carefully, and for quite a few minutes, while doing some fancy jinking if you are to achieve separation.  And even then, assuming you actually achieved effective separation without sustaining any damage, it will be some time before you're in a position to go on the offensive again.   The practical speed margin between the 190 and it's two primary adversaries in the game is small and in many situations guarantees nothing. 

[Stig]

In the situation you describe Wulf, you would have to be very lucky to get away in any plane. A bandit a few hundred meters of your tail, especially one with centre line weapons, is very much in shooting range. Even if you could accelerate away straight and level from him, you won't outrun his bullets. 

[Wulf]

Yes, agreed.  The shooting often starts around 600 m or so, and even at that range, it's often fairly accurate.

[SR-F_Winger]

especially if your guns dont have any disperison:P

[=TIA=TBear]

Second impressions after some more testing.

Ok, from my humble opinion all planes seem quite good modeled...maybe some more fine tuning needed expecially in the transition from low speed and stall speed (u have very few fluttering and "noise" warnings).

109s are pure energy fighter. With the G u need to be a very skilled boomer-zoomer.

Russian are extremely good turn fighters and they perform good also in dives.... and they are fast too...definitely with them even an average pilot can become an ace

The 202 is a middle between 109s and Soviets. If u start a fight with some energy advantage U can efford turn fight even with Yaks. Its a plane for skilled pilots.

Some words about flaps....do they break or jam at high speeds? Doesnt seem so.

I still would like to see the EM charts Devs used, and from what historica source they come out.

 

Of course everything i wrote is personal humble opinion of an average virtual pilot

Edited September 26, 2015 by =TIA=TBear