Run Away!

[indiaciki]

I don't get it.. I use my flaps all the time in combat..and trim...

You couldn't unless you were below max flaps speed limits. And if you were you would slow your plane down so you were cripple its performance. Flaps in RL are not hitting a key. And they are not designed for tighter turns. They are for allowing a/c to maintain higher angles of attack at low speeds at landings and TOs. The drag the produce is worse than the benefit they create. They are dangerous. It's a bug. Believe me. The 109 slats are what you're looking for. Or as you mentioned wildcat / bearcat combat flaps but BOS aircraft - no go. They would jam or worse. Fall off. Jam assymetrically. Hence wreck your plane. Flaps delay stall at higher angle of attack. Flaps are not designed for turning at all They don't even help at all in RL. It's a bug. Flaps are for landings and TO only. If they work in BoS. Then BoS has a seroius issue. Listen to Bob Hoover about conserving energy. Posted it in another thread. I'm doing aerobatics in s Ju 87 right now. Flaps would kill me in horizontsl and vertical maneuvers. Checked with my dad. Military pilots basic traing and first licence. PPl and IFR after. Flaps are a no go if you do any ACM. It's about drag and angle of attack if you don't mind structural damage and the impossibility of instant flaps engagement in RL. It's a really serieous bug in BOS. I could go on forever. It might work in BOS but it shouldn't. It like zhe undercarriage bug. BOS doesn't recognize drag by undercarriage. Big mistake, Huge one. You use flaps to slow your aircraft down when landing? How could you if modeled right benefit from this in a dogfight? It's worng. Aerodynamically.

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[Dakpilot]

I haven't found stalls particularly difficult to recover from in a 190 - as long as you have a bit of altitude of course (1500m maybe).  I just cut the throttle to idle, apply full opposite rudder and push the nose down.  This would save me more often than not.   That said I don't very often get into stalls.  The only time that usually happens to me is when I'm trying to make a stupidly tight turn.  Why I would attempt such a thing in a 190 is a complete mystery to me but sometimes I just do it.

 

As for the idea that you would deliberately stall your aircraft (presumably to force an over-shoot on the guy following) sounds 'desperate' to me to say the least.  I think I did read somewhere that it was supposed to have been done from time to time during the War but I'm left wondering if it really was 'deliberate' or just panic with an happy outcome.   I suspect the latter.  If you are at altitude, why not roll?  If on the other hand you're down near the deck and running low on options, deliberately stalling your aircraft sounds like a damn good way to blow your brains out without using a gun. 

 

Quote from Norbert Hannig "Luftwaffe Fighter Ace" a must read book for Eastern Front air combat, here talking about FW 190 stall charcteristic

 

'If these were

ignored, the machine would automatically go into a flick half roll, losing

height and turning through 180º in less time than it takes to describe

here. This manoeuvre was virtually impossible for another pilot to

follow. If you were in a dogfight, and had sufficient altitude, it was a

sure way of getting an opponent off your tail. This ‘built-in’ escape

 

tactic was the saving of many a Foke pilot who found himself in

extremis.'

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by Dakpilot

[Dr_Molenbeek]

How about..an opinion held as opposed to a lie that has been invented.. See how that changes the whole context of the post? Unless of course you are intentionally trying to call folks with a differing opinion from yours liars..

 

So, saying that the Fw 190 is a plane that has been built to "dive, attack, then climb again" ONLY is an opinion as an other, to take in consideration, for you ?

 

If i say that P-47 can outturns any Spitfire at low speed, it's an opinion, or a proof of how clueless i am ?

 

Read about Fw 190 and especially about Schlachtgeschwader pilots.

[Brano]

Read about Fw 190 and especially about Schlachtgeschwader pilots.

 Do you have a book you would recommend?

[Kling]

Any fighter that has the option to decide when to fight and not must be the best design.

Hence, this why fighters became faster and faster with worse and worse turn radius.

[SR-F_Winger]

 

 

As for the idea that you would deliberately stall your aircraft (presumably to force an over-shoot on the guy following)

 

Thats not what i was suggesting. My tinking was to exploit the rapid rolling when the left wing stalls and then instantly recover it. We  all know that sadly the ininitial roll of the 190 gets beaten by the legendary rolling LA5:) Its was just thinking out loud. I didnt try iof its practicable at all yet.

And btw. (@ all) All one gets from trying to be helpful to other FW jocks is flames. Awesome clientel here. I use my technique quite successful. Take the advice and try it or just leave it.

The last guy that was talking smart got his *peep* handed 9 times in a row when i had the lucky oportunity to meet him 1 on 1 on DED expert (only him and me:P). God he was stalling all the time. Had no frikkin clue how to fly but was sooooo smart talking here on the forums as if he ate the wisdom with spoons:)

[KodiakJac]

First and foremost because the fights we see in a combat flight sim has little resemblance to real WW2 air combat. It involves a lot of ahistoric 'duels' between single or pairs of aircraft and the dogfights drag on for much longer than the far majority of real WW2 combats which mostly lasted seconds rather than minutes.

That's a simplistic answer of course, but at the end of the day, that's all it really comes down to.

 

+1

[Dr_Molenbeek]

 Do you have a book you would recommend?

 

Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front

Fw 190 Aces of the Western Front

La-5/7 vs Fw 190

Luftwaffe Fighter Ace

...

[Dakpilot]

Luftwaffe Fighter Ace by Norbert Hannig, very informative and easy read, of course must realise it is one persons recollections, but highly recommended

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17753-reading-materials-learning-tools-and-getting-better/?p=279638

 

Free PDF download

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SYN_Ricky]

There's also Stormbird by Hermann Buchner, who flew as a Schlacht pilot (Bf-109 and then FW-190) and finally as a Me-262 pilot. He scored 58 aerial victories.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Stormbird-Luftwaffes-Highest-Scoring-Classic/dp/0859791408

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Had this happen for the first time since EA. Strange that the guy who I put rounds into on the first go round (but didn't finish because his mates showed up) would be the one taunting me for running. It was a long chase a short time later after I had a kill in a turn fight and just continued to extend on him. Telling me I had a problem with my confidence and certain physical traits. Interesting that the person who felt the need to taunt was saying such things.

[Wulf]

Thats not what i was suggesting. My tinking was to exploit the rapid rolling when the left wing stalls and then instantly recover it. We  all know that sadly the ininitial roll of the 190 gets beaten by the legendary rolling LA5:) Its was just thinking out loud. I didnt try iof its practicable at all yet.

And btw. (@ all) All one gets from trying to be helpful to other FW jocks is flames. Awesome clientel here. I use my technique quite successful. Take the advice and try it or just leave it.

The last guy that was talking smart got his *peep* handed 9 times in a row when i had the lucky oportunity to meet him 1 on 1 on DED expert (only him and me:P). God he was stalling all the time. Had no frikkin clue how to fly but was sooooo smart talking here on the forums as if he ate the wisdom with spoons:)

 

 

I hadn't intended my comments to be inflammatory.  Having re-read them, I can see how they could appear that way.  Sorry bro. 

[Brano]

Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front

Fw 190 Aces of the Western Front

La-5/7 vs Fw 190

Luftwaffe Fighter Ace

...

 

Thanks for the tips,but I was interested more in specific/academic title dealing with Schlachtgeschwader deployment on Eastern front.Those books above are (at least 1st 3) more of a general/easy-to-read Osprey publications.

[KoN_]

A good book called

 

The Blonde Knight of Germany  . 

[SR-F_Winger]

I hadn't intended my comments to be inflammatory.  Having re-read them, I can see how they could appear that way.  Sorry bro. 

Now you overread the "@all". I didnt mean you in particular. Adressing you, my intent was only to clarify what i was actually talking about. So all good Wulf:)

Edited August 19, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[Feathered_IV]

I don't get why most of the threads turn into fights. This is why i started two threads about non-combat flying in the last few days I'm back. I recall an extremly friendly ROF forum the day I joined. A one that was about flying not scoring kills. Maybe I wasn't part of the original IL-2 community because there was no sims for Macs, I don't get the hostility and the lack of interest in flying itself.

 

90% of being a flight sim fan is made up of waiting.  It makes people cranky 

[EAF19_Marsh]

90% of being a flight sim fan is made up of waiting.  It makes people cranky 

 

Normally at work or doing something else when I would rather be flying...

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Yea I`m having a similar problem, everytime I engage a VVS dude he pulls on his stick and goes in circles until blacking out so he can justify T&B.

 

Please stop T&Bing.

Learn some ACM and it shouldn't be a problem.

[Y-29.Silky]

I chased Germans for 3 hours tonight, literally did nothing else and ran out of gas once doing it. You know it's getting bad when they're running away from I-16's. One 190 even started acting like a child and taunted us. I think I'm done until the P-40 release which won't be an equalizer but still fun, there is no enjoyment right now.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Did it occur to anyone that many of those running away in unusual situations are the newer pilots who don't know how to exploit their speed and climb advantages?  I run when it is neccessary and engage when it is advantageous to me. My SA isn't bad and I often engage in a run when my enemy is still 1.5 to 2.5 km away. Some of the runs are elongated when my pursuer is especially aggressive. Gaming the game a bit, and if they are within 1 km, I know many of the pilot's by name and know it will be a long run - and possibly my demise. Anyone running from an I16 for more than a couple of kilometers has no idea what they are doing.

[Wulf]

I chased Germans for 3 hours tonight, literally did nothing else and ran out of gas once doing it. You know it's getting bad when they're running away from I-16's. One 190 even started acting like a child and taunted us. I think I'm done until the P-40 release which won't be an equalizer but still fun, there is no enjoyment right now.

 

Hmmmmm ... "taunted us" you say.  So, there was more than one of you chasing the 190?  If that's the case, did you really expect the bloke to turn and engage multiple bandits - from a disadvantaged position?  And at what altitude was this happening?  Down low the 190 will out pace an I-16 quite quickly but at altitude, an I-16 can stay with a  climbing 190, as strange as that may sound.  If you remained close to the 190 as he attempted to climb away, maybe he didn't have sufficient room to turn??

 

If you really want to engage a fleeing 190 your best bet would be to break off the engagement.  That will give the 190 pilot an incentive to turn and re-engage.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Wulf

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I have no problem admitting when my advantage is gone and my altitude is too, I run. It's actually called extending. I do that until I regain an advantag then re-engage. But, by that time. You are already dead because I play along side these things called "team mates". You all should try them. They are great at helping you out of a jam. And telling you cool stuff like "keep dragging that dumbass, I'm in the saddle".

 

 

I jest, but all this conversation is silly. You fly to get kills, and if you aren't a jerk, a drag and bag, in which you extend with a present for a squad mate behind you, you can count that as a kill for your squad.

Edited August 24, 2015 by [TWB]Hooves_McG

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

YUUuuuuuppp!

 

+1