DD today?

[Feathered_IV]

Check the announcements

[Livai]

Welcome D-Day 114
Here you learn the first steps how to fly the Bf-110 --->

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feFX8xkC8Lg

 

[ST_ami7b5]

WT Plus?

[LukeFF]

WT Plus?

 

No, it isn't. 

 

Seriously people, try it out first instead of panning it before the update has even downloaded to your computer.

[Finkeren]

I can kinda understand the knee-jerk reaction against this, but honestly from RoF we know, that we joystick users are hardly gonna notice it, I certainly haven't, and since it's kinda ported from RoF it can't have taken that many resources to implement.

 

I predict that this together with the tanks will either draw in a new crowd (which would be great) or have virtually no impact at all, so where's the problem?

Edited November 20, 2015 by Finkeren

[ST_ami7b5]

How you recognize a "knee-jerk" reaction?

[Finkeren]

How you recognize a "knee-jerk" reaction?

People immediately slamming a new feature (which isn't really new at all, since it's ported from RoF) before having actually tried it.

 

There is nothing wrong with this reaction. I had the same reaction when mouse control was first introduced in RoF, but since then I have hardly even noticed it was there at all.

[I./ZG1_Juno11]

Any idea when the Update will become available?

[Finkeren]

Any idea when the Update will become available?

 

When they release a final change log for the update, it means it's very close. Propably tuesday.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

People immediately slamming a new feature (which isn't really new at all, since it's ported from RoF) before having actually tried it.

 

There is nothing wrong with this reaction. I had the same reaction when mouse control was first introduced in RoF, but since then I have hardly even noticed it was there at all.

To be honest most of the guys speaking out against it (while they still can) are WT veterans that know whats coming upon this game. There's not much to test outself, the video shows all you need to know to get the picture of what will happen.

 

Watch the scene when he takes off, when he picks the Ilyushins one by one without missing, the sloppy 2 pointer that actually shoudl have made him bounce but has been corrected by the "virtual superman" immedently...it's going to create a great skill gap, not to mention an imersion killer.

 

I really wish devs could just go with the mouse joystick implementation instead. It's obvious they want to cater from the WT croud though so going for the "easy mode" is a logical decision.

 

Let's just hope MA does not turn out to be a lucrative sidetrack and that the number of joystick pilots won't drop even further. Otherwise this game will be going downhill pretty fast.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[BraveSirRobin]

To be honest most of the guys speaking out against it (while they still can) are WT veterans that know whats coming upon this game. 

 

Actually, they don't have a clue.  The same mouse functionality exists in RoF, and the people using it have no chance.  It just gets you into the game.  It does not help you in combat.

[Jade_Monkey]

To be honest most of the guys speaking out against it (while they still can) are WT veterans that know whats coming upon this game. There's not much to test outself, the video shows all you need to know to get the picture of what will happen.

 

Watch the scene when he takes off, when he picks the Ilyushins one by one without missing, the sloppy 2 pointer that actually shoudl have made him bounce but has been corrected by the "virtual superman" immedently...it's going to create a great skill gap, not to mention an imersion killer.

How about you read the DD?

 

If you dont want to, you dont have to play with people with a mouse, there will be joystick only servers. Stop ranting just because devs are giving options to players. Not everyone shares your preferences.

Its just an OPTION!

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I cannot remember who said it, but the phrase applies here: "good flying never killed anything."

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Actually, they don't have a clue.  The same mouse functionality exists in RoF, and the people using it have no chance.  It just gets you into the game.  It does not help you in combat.

Maybe you should enlighten people than how much our fighters in BoS can be compared to slow and sluggish WW1 planes.

 

How about you read the DD?

 

If you dont want to, you dont have to play with people with a mouse, there will be joystick only servers. Stop ranting just because devs are giving options to players. Not everyone shares your preferences.

Its just an OPTION!

My reading is perfectly fine. There's just enought people with joystick to populate 2 servers at weekends currently, imagine what happens if their number drops further.

 

With mouse becoming an attractive alternative for arcade flying you can suspect a good ammount of players switching over + new guys starting off with mouse aim instead of joystick controlls. Their hope that those might switch over to joystick controlls to enjoy the "full potential" is just not going to happen.

 

Of course it won't effect the game right after release of 1.15 but on a long run. Again the system is the same as in WT, only FMs are really different. But I won't try to prevent anybody from daydreaming.

 

My BoM perorder is definetly on halt until this is sorted out.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Finkeren]

Stuka, I really think you should try out the mouse controls yourself as the first thing when 1.105. As has been said, mouse control has not at all destroyed MP in RoF, where it offers no substantial advantage over joystick and quite a few disadvantages.

 

If this really does impact the gameplay like in WT, then I might jump on your bandwagon, but I really think you are expecting a calamity that will never happen.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hopefully they fix the exploit of people having "Normal game mode markers" in the MP "Expert" servers! It's not hard to do but I refuse to use such [edited] in a flight simulator.But it's really ruining the experience. I know multiple folk who also recreated the exploit..

Would you mind to explain that further via PM? Cus none has reported that over at the bug section what you saying that I know and to me it will be a cheat not a exploit and accuising people of cheating is a very serious thing.

 

Thank you

[Bearcat]

Silky clear out your PMs.

[Bearcat]

For those griping about the mouse thing..

 

 

3. Mouse controls. There was a long time dilemma in simulation genre caused by the fact that realistic flight physics mean that a newcomer should have a certain level of initial knowledge and skills (understanding basic principles like 'flight is speed', 'don't turn the flight stick to its limit', 'be more attentive at lower altitudes', etc.) and have controller equipment of a certain level (namely a joystick that is much less widespread gaming device today than it was ten years ago). This sets a pretty high entry barrier for newcomers who want to try the sim genre.

 

On the other hand, adding simplified flight physics (where a plane can be flown using just cursor keys on the keyboard and where it can't enter uncontrollable spin caused by rough handling for example) to accommodate new players leads to unsolvable problem - this won't give a player the feeling of realistic flight at all, robbing him or her of the very reason of simulation. Is there any point in playing a simplified physics flight in a sim which is all about realistic flight? In addition, this divides the community between those who fly using simplified and full physics modeling since they can't fly the same multiplayer mission.

 

The answer to this dilemma is a special 'advanced helper' that receives 'I want to do this but I don't know how to' commands from a player and translates them to real plane controls input, not touching physics level at all. This comes with a price however, as everything in life - the helper chooses optimal 'right' trajectories, which simultaneously prevents a player from critical errors and limits the extreme maneuvers the plane can perform like Barrel roll, Snap roll, Hummerhead, Sideslip and others. This enables players who use a mouse and players who use a joystick to fly together and don't have a clear advantage caused by their control device. Winning a fight requires tactical positioning and understanding the composition of air fight, what, we feel, is the goal in this situation.

..................................

It is important to note that mouse control helper governs only pitch, roll and yaw. Controlling engine, flaps, brakes, armament and everything else is the same as on joystick. This allows mouse controls to be used in Normal and Expert modes just like joystick - differences (and difficulties) are the same.

 

Furthermore, in case a part of the community feels they want to play only with players who use a joystick, we added a special option to dedicated server configuration that allows a server owner to restrict the control scheme to joystick.

[DD_Arthur]

  The same mouse functionality exists in RoF, and the people using it have no chance.  It just gets you into the game.  It does not help you in combat.

 

This.   Anyone familiar with how it works in RoF will know mouse control will not be a problem.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Some people seem to only see their small picture of how MA really works. Most likely none of them ever cared for bombers and groubd attackers as well. So here's the deal of what to expect:

1. Manouvrebility: No critical problem to beat a MA user in 1 vs 1 turnfight due to better reflexes and more freedom of movement, even though a mouseplayer can't mistakenly push his plane into an accelerated stall and has always max controllebility. Additionally MAmers fly with tunnel vision most of the time given they can't controll the plane and look around at the same time ("one mouse to do it all").
1 vs 2 or if you're flying the inferiour aircraft things get ugly, MA advantages will pay off more than your superiour reflexes.

2. Accurancy: Clearly MA is way more precise. Precision is untouchable since autostabilisation always gurantees best accurancy even while turning. This lures them to use higj range shooting, which due to their accurancy advantage works well after little training. Bombers in particular will become ridiculiusly hopeless targets, bomber pilots will cry out for "buffs" threatening to effect the balance of bombers vs joystick pilots.

3. Workload: Probably a good thing for newcomers it's clearly easier pointing the mouse in a direction and let the plane cruise on that heading than flying with a joystick under constant influrence of turbulences and wind that require correction movements. This will give MA player an advantage over unexpirienced joystick pilots effeting their own fun with the game.

4. Behaviour: Planes controlled by MA tend to shiw erratic behaviour with eppileptical kinds of movements (as seen in the video) whicj can be frustrating to fight against. Furthermore the "virtual instructor" has far quicker reactions than a joystick because they simply have restrictions in theor physical movement. Thats no issue for a 100g mouse.

5. "The Joystick. An ancient device of a more civiliced age":

Mouse controlls will sure gain popularity even among current joystick pilots. Furthermore new pilots (primarily thinking of WT since thats the pool they appeal to most) won't try the challenge of flying with a joystick at all but stick with the easier, more convinient method. Unlike what many expect MA won't help to make people transition to a joystick and train to become better pilots as the skill gap and limitations of both methods are too big.

6. Server organisation: Currently BoS still is dryed out during workdays and barely has enough servers running at weekends to be called popular. If some joystick pilots decide to switch to mouseaim and new players coming in won't transition to sticks the numbers of stock pilots may drop over time. Once their're more MA pilots than joystick ones hosts provably will open the mode for all and MA may dictate the MP envirounment. The remaining fraction pf JS pilots will have to live flying with and against MA pilots or fly SP only.

And I don't have to try it out in RoF to know all this might happen. The system is already there and known and 777 certainly didn't reinvent the wheel to gurantee a maximum of balance.
Also RoF is arguably a dead game with or without the MA. By the tine it was introduced only the hardcore croud was still flying who didnt really care. It was more of a testbed than a abticipated feautre.
Last but not least RoF uses a (slightly) different engine and way different FMs than BoS. Biplanes in WW2 are not compareable in manouvrebility and accurancy to WW2 ones due to their rudimentary construction.

The effectiveness of MA is directly tied to the FMs as the virtual instructor automaticly flies just within the limits of what the FM calculates. So a Fw190 controlled by a MA player will show way different behaviour than a Spad XII or Camel.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Dakpilot]

2. Accurancy: Clearly MA is way more precise. Precision is untouchable since autostabilisation always gurantees best accurancy even while turning. This lures them to use higj range shooting, which due to their accurancy advantage works well after little training. Bombers in particular will become ridiculiusly hopeless targets, bomber pilots will cry out for "buffs" threatening to effect the balance of bombers vs joystick pilots.

 

Was this the case with RoF? did mouse users have an advantage in more precise accuracy with long range shooting? I would have thought it would have caused a big stir on RoF forums

 

Seems that most who HAVE experienced it in RoF don't seem to consider it much of an issue..and those are mostly the "grumpy old men"

 

Clearly it would be better to wait and see rather than make sweeping statements of how this MAY work in an as yet unreleased update for BoS

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

RoF uses different random gunspread than BoS (accurancy is intentionally tuned down to prevent "sharpshooting"). That's why MA in BoS will automaticly lead to more accurate and deadly shots.

 

Again RoF FMs are in a whole different ballpark. Don't tell me you can't see the difference between WW1 crappy slowflyers and a WW2 high performance air superiority fighters.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Some people seem to only see their small picture of how MA really works. Most likely none of them ever cared for bombers and groubd attackers as well. So here's the deal of what to expect:

 

2. Accurancy: Clearly MA is way more precise. Precision is untouchable since autostabilisation always gurantees best accurancy even while turning. This lures them to use higj range shooting, which due to their accurancy advantage works well after little training. Bombers in particular will become ridiculiusly hopeless targets, bomber pilots will cry out for "buffs" threatening to effect the balance of bombers vs joystick pilots.

 

 

Flying bombers 99.9% of the time, this is my major concern about mouse aiming. I never played RoF but seeing the videos on youtube, it seems that MA in BoS is a bit more reactive and precise. So I share Stuka's concerns about this.

 

 

Now, my opinion on the game vs sim stuff, To me IL2 is already a game since there is a normal mode with GPS, hud icons and simplified engine management. But it can be turned to a great simulator as well with the right settings.

 

Mouse aiming is just a new feature on the game side but I don't think it could possibly doom the future of IL2. What I expect is that most normal dogfight server will run with mouse aiming allowed because MA don't give much of an edge in turnfight, and the expert one will not allow it, because they are expert servers. So all in all, it won't change our lives that much. 

 

Tanks are also a great addition to the package, and if those two things can bring more people and more money for the devs to develop more stuffs, I'm happy with that. 

Edited November 21, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Dakpilot]

Stuka, I would have thought your fears of "easier stability'' would have even more effect on unstable WW1 FM

 

Maybe Mouse flyers will totally ruin MP with UFO feats and sniper kills.......but i think it would be better to test it in reality, or wait and see before claiming the "sky is falling"

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited November 21, 2015 by Dakpilot

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

i suggest we wait and see until we say how it is

[BraveSirRobin]

Maybe you should enlighten people than how much our fighters in BoS can be compared to slow and sluggish WW1 planes.

 

 

WW2 aircraft are faster.  SFW?

[LukeFF]

How you recognize a "knee-jerk" reaction?

 

You posting Mickey Mouse pictures in response to said announcement?

[ST_ami7b5]

Was not asking you (I was quite satisfied with Finkeren's answer), but here you are if you insist: 

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by ST_ami7b5

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

this is getting silly...again

[ST_ami7b5]

Yes

 

Why to provoke?
It was closed from my side so there was no need for Lukes'post to revoke that again...
 

I DO appriciate his work on the manual. And I love BoS.
But I am entitled to my opinion that mouse control is arcadish and I don't like it.

That's all.

Edited November 22, 2015 by ST_ami7b5

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

let's just wait and see shall we..

it's not like...

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by SvAF/F19_Klunk

[ST_ami7b5]

OK.

[Bando]

 

 

Well, Mr. A minor seventh flat five that is a beautiful screenshot.

[ST_ami7b5]

 

 

Well, Mr. A minor seventh flat five that is a beautiful screenshot.

 

Thank you, fellow musician!

[Eldur]

Is it boom&zoom or turn&burn those horses do?

 

Kind of, depends on the pony, going in fast is 20% cooler

 

 

Others go up close (behold of the vintage footage from the 80s)...

 

 

Or just start shooting things

 

 

If all fails, there's even a last resort...

 

 

 

 

Well, guess it's enough of educational OT for now ("Dear Princess Celestia..." ).

 

Having tons of fun with the Bf-110E-2 now, but I do want that MiG-3. Waiting is hard, but at least not as hard anymore now

 

By the way, that P-40 RPM governor bug (when starting parked in full real mode) hasn't been fixed in the latest update... any word on that?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Eldur

[Blooddawn1942]

What it'll be today? Announcement of driveable PIV-F2 and infantry?

Just kidding.

I guess after the last week's monumental update the developers are going to skip it for this week. Would be well deserved.

[Finkeren]

Are you kidding? The MiG-3 is up next. The devs owe me a richly illustrated 1200 words DD giving all details about it, a 5 min video of the MiG in flight with gorgeous engine sound and in-cockpit view and, most importantly, announcement of the release of update 1.106 - on December 1st!

 

*cracks whip*

[Eldur]

Are you kidding? The MiG-3 is up next. The devs owe me a richly illustrated 1200 words DD giving all details about it, a 5 min video of the MiG in flight with gorgeous engine sound and in-cockpit view and, most importantly, announcement of the release of update 1.106 - on December 1st!

 

*cracks whip*

 

I second, third and fourth that

 

Obvious MiG-3 need is obvious

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Are you kidding? The MiG-3 is up next. The devs owe me a richly illustrated 1200 words DD giving all details about it, a 5 min video of the MiG in flight with gorgeous engine sound and in-cockpit view and, most importantly, announcement of the release of update 1.106 - on December 1st!

 

*cracks whip*

I am actually scared of being disappointed once the MiG actually comes out. I have high expectaqtions and really hope the Devs have as much love for it as I do.

The worst thing is that I have no clue how the Mikulin sounds, maybe nobody alive knows. Maybe it's the most dreary engine sound ever IRL and has to be that way ingame too.

That would be absolutely awful.

[Finkeren]

I am actually scared of being disappointed once the MiG actually comes out. I have high expectaqtions and really hope the Devs have as much love for it as I do.

The worst thing is that I have no clue how the Mikulin sounds, maybe nobody alive knows. Maybe it's the most dreary engine sound ever IRL and has to be that way ingame too.

That would be absolutely awful.

It's a low RPM engine but a hugely powerful one, so I suspect a low growl with a high pitched whistling from the supercharger lying underneath.

 

In any case: The only ways the MiG-3 could disappoint me, would be if the modeling or sound work was below the high standard set in BoM or maybe, if the devs had made it into an obviously OP UFO that turns inside the I-16, outclimbs the 109s and rides the edge of the envelope like a Yak.