Yak can keep Up

[StG2_Manfred]

That is not a ''proof'', the site is not official and not every server is present there...

Enough said, keep your remarks for yourself next time 

Whatever it says for you, for me it says they have never been flown on those servers.

And please, care you about your comments, and let mine to me  

Edited June 18, 2015 by StG2_Manfred

[BraveSirRobin]

Whatever it says for you, for me it says they have never been flown on those servers.

And please, care you about your comments, and let mine to me  

 

I have lots of time online and I barely have any time on those servers.  That website proves nothing.

[StG2_Manfred]

I have lots of time online and I barely have any time on those servers.  That website proves nothing.

 

I understand that you have this opinion, that's why I was mentioning it.

[BraveSirRobin]

I understand that you have this opinion, that's why I was mentioning it.

 

My opinion has nothing to do with anything.  I'm just telling you that a person can have lots of online experience and still not be listed on that website.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Whatever it says for you, for me it says they have never been flown on those servers.

 

For me it says the same. 

I've flown quite a bit on WoL and DED Normal servers, though that was last month (since end of May I havent flown at all as I'm too occupied with my real life business), but still I have no records on that website. No wins, no losses. Nothing. 

 

It can be a nice tool but I dont find it accurate. 

[Willy__]

At high alts the Yak definately dont keep up with the german birds. Down on the deck is another thing though...

 

[Urra]

At high alts the Yak definately dont keep up with the german birds. Down on the deck is another thing though...

 

 

Superb video, learned a lot, thank you.

[Reflected]

Today I took the Yak for a ride. It flew like a charm, wonderful machine. Then came the landing: full flaps, almost perfect 3 pointer, then the wheels touched the ground and the plane ballooned up to about 50 meters. I was astonished how much energy and lift it had, like a piece of feather. Something is definitely fishy there. Sorry, I can't provide hard data, but something stinks in the Yak/ flaps/ energy/ lift equation Now I see what others mean.

[=LD=Penshoon]

Today I took the Yak for a ride. It flew like a charm, wonderful machine. Then came the landing: full flaps, almost perfect 3 pointer, then the wheels touched the ground and the plane ballooned up to about 50 meters. I was astonished how much energy and lift it had, like a piece of feather. Something is definitely fishy there. Sorry, I can't provide hard data, but something stinks in the Yak/ flaps/ energy/ lift equation Now I see what others mean.

You really bounced 50 meters up? How fast was you going?!?

Normally you bounce when you are too fast and dont pull the stick back enough.

Edited July 2, 2015 by =LD=Penshoon

[BSS_Sniper]

same as everyone else, by "flying" the planes in-game and comparing the results to historical flight tests and empirical, verifiable data. The FM is the same in SP and MP.

 

playing "online" while sitting in your room holding a plastic joystick in front of a computer screen does not give anyone a special insight on FMs.

 

Now if someone has actual real world flying experience on these or comparable aircraft types, that would be pertinent. Does anyone here have that?

 

I'm not going to get in the middle of this soup sandwich, but yes, in the group that I fly with, including myself, most of us fly professionally. We are current or former military pilots, current airline pilots, A&P (aircraft mechanics) or a combination of all. Most of us have thousands of real world, professional flight hours. One of us restores WWII aircraft. We've flown everything from basic single engine recips, high performance aircraft, turbo props, fighters, airliners and yes, WWII aircraft. I'll tell you up front we don't get into the chart stuff you guys argue over. What we do talk about is what a plane should do or shouldn't do. Unfortunately, we've been disappointed with this sim. Other than flying for a living in real life, most of us have been simming since the CFS days. Don't get me wrong, this sim is pretty and not a total bust, but it could use some improvement with the FM's in general. Our general complaints are ground handling, especially how a plane bounces incredibly high even with the softest of landings and how all of the aircraft seem to depart in certain flight regimes that they shouldn't. We know each aircraft will have its own little quirks, but general speaking, planes shouldn't do some of the things we've seen in this sim.

 

You guys can argue over the numbers and I appreciate that there are guys like you that will do this testing and make charts. We can just tell you from years of real life experience that we've seen some things that just shouldn't happen. No sim is perfect, but there are a couple that have it more correct than others.

[Gl-l0st]

Today I took the Yak for a ride. It flew like a charm, wonderful machine. Then came the landing: full flaps, almost perfect 3 pointer, then the wheels touched the ground and the plane ballooned up to about 50 meters. I was astonished how much energy and lift it had, like a piece of feather. Something is definitely fishy there. Sorry, I can't provide hard data, but something stinks in the Yak/ flaps/ energy/ lift equation Now I see what others mean.

I have a recording of my stuka loseing half its wing from a tree strike (it went inverted as well) and I can keep it flying all the way back to base 30 km's away can't remember if I landed it or bailed, oh and it was on expert mode. Also do a bit of inverted close to deck in the 109 and 190 for 20 minutes or until boredom sets in, to improve my brain capacity, this wouldn't be possible IRL I guess?

 

I don't have any empirical data to back up my claim, but I'm telling the truth. :0

Edited July 3, 2015 by Gl-l0ST

[LukeFF]

 

 

I have a recording of my stuka loseing half its wing from a tree strike (it went inverted as well) and I can keep it flying all the way back to base 30 km's away can't remember if I landed it or bailed, oh and it was on expert mode. Also do a bit of inverted close to deck in the 109 and 190 for 20 minutes or until boredom sets in, to improve my brain capacity, this wouldn't be possible IRL I guess?

 

 

[Gl-l0st]

 

 

 

Well that backs up my experience in the sim quite nicely, wonder if he did a 360deg roll when the wing was blown off to regain control. He has a fair amount of aileron holding that wing down, the rudder is neutral but that maybe because of the camera shot. My remaining aileron was frozen at roughly the same angle and I still had to use substantial rudder carefuly and elevator was extremely touchy as was engine power adjustments.

[Reflected]

You really bounced 50 meters up? How fast was you going?!?

Normally you bounce when you are too fast and dont pull the stick back enough. 

 

I know how this works, and I wasn't going faster than 180-200 kph. I also find the 109 somewhat unrealistically bouncy, but switching to the Yak, I felt like Neil Armstrong jumping around in his spacesuit.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Tiuchdown speed for the Bf109 with 30° flaps is 135 km/h. Landing speed isn't approaching speed. But yes planes in BoS feel slightly too springloaded (although lack of physical feedback surely does contribute a big part to this sensation as well).

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I'm not complaining.....   but 2 of us in 109's had a yak on the deck and he had full flaps and was turning really hard ....... not only does that thing keep up but it just never slows down. I was boom and zooming from much higher 600 -800m and the other 109 was much tighter and lower with him and got shot down. I eventually got him but not after he chased me a few times and put a few holes in my bird. The acceleration on that YAk is amazing.

 

Yes he is a good pilot but hell that YAK is fast AND maneuverable.

[Reflected]

Tiuchdown speed for the Bf109 with 30° flaps is 135 km/h. Landing speed isn't approaching speed. But yes planes in BoS feel slightly too springloaded (although lack of physical feedback surely does contribute a big part to this sensation as well).

 

My last glance at the ASI is the moment I start pulling back on the stick, so I really don't know what my touchdown speed was.

[Dakpilot]

Today I took the Yak for a ride. It flew like a charm, wonderful machine. Then came the landing: full flaps, almost perfect 3 pointer, then the wheels touched the ground and the plane ballooned up to about 50 meters. I was astonished how much energy and lift it had, like a piece of feather. Something is definitely fishy there. Sorry, I can't provide hard data, but something stinks in the Yak/ flaps/ energy/ lift equation Now I see what others mean.

 

 

I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time flying a large Cargo aircraft at one point  during my career, it had a max takeoff weight of about 100 tons, however get the approach only very slightly wrong and carry a little too much airspeed, literally 5kts at touchdown and see that 200ft balloon happen!! incredibly embarrassing to have to do a go-around in such an aircraft. Fortunately this happened to much more experienced pilots than me as well

 

Aircraft are designed to fly, if you have any speed above stall and change AoA you will fly

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=LD=Penshoon]

My last glance at the ASI is the moment I start pulling back on the stick, so I really don't know what my touchdown speed was.

Can you recreate the landing and record the track? Bos landings looks and feels very realistic for me, the planes seems to react to collision in absolute realtime witch no other sim I've tried does. I see landings like this below all the time in mp as most are too fast at toutchdown.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm not going to get in the middle of this soup sandwich, but yes, in the group that I fly with, including myself, most of us fly professionally. We are current or former military pilots, current airline pilots, A&P (aircraft mechanics) or a combination of all. Most of us have thousands of real world, professional flight hours. One of us restores WWII aircraft. We've flown everything from basic single engine recips, high performance aircraft, turbo props, fighters, airliners and yes, WWII aircraft. I'll tell you up front we don't get into the chart stuff you guys argue over. What we do talk about is what a plane should do or shouldn't do. Unfortunately, we've been disappointed with this sim. Other than flying for a living in real life, most of us have been simming since the CFS days. Don't get me wrong, this sim is pretty and not a total bust, but it could use some improvement with the FM's in general. Our general complaints are ground handling, especially how a plane bounces incredibly high even with the softest of landings and how all of the aircraft seem to depart in certain flight regimes that they shouldn't. We know each aircraft will have its own little quirks, but general speaking, planes shouldn't do some of the things we've seen in this sim.

 

You guys can argue over the numbers and I appreciate that there are guys like you that will do this testing and make charts. We can just tell you from years of real life experience that we've seen some things that just shouldn't happen. No sim is perfect, but there are a couple that have it more correct than others.

 

 

Sniper, the real pilots in our group pretty much say the same things.  They also rarely if ever get bogged down by a few knots difference in speed between what is in the sim and some chart.

The ground handling does indeed bare the brunt of their wrath, and some of the whimsical departures as well.

 

But as we all know, simmers never trust what real pilots have to say, because, charts.

[unreasonable]

 

Aircraft are designed to fly, if you have any speed above stall and change AoA you will fly

 

 

As a non RL pilot I find that to be a very useful reminder of a simple truth. I think there is a tendency for us (gamer pilots) to think that once we have made contact with mother earth we are now just a car with unusually big fins. Reminding us that we are still an aeroplane until our wings can create no lift is a good way to think about the landing. I shall certainly pay more attention to speed on landing in future.

 

Thanks.

 

But as we all know, simmers never trust what real pilots have to say, because, charts.

 

That is a little unfair. It is only the engineer geek type simmers who take that attitude, many of us listen with great interest with what real pilots have to say. I know I do, even though I like charts as much as the next geek. The trouble is that they do not always agree: the pilots that is. For that matter neither do the charts!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I want to know how he got to fifty meters without breaking an awful lot of components first. The DM, while needing a few tweaks still, seems pretty consistent and predictable for ground contact. I flew the Yak for the first time ever on Wednesday. I landed it a little fast (approach 210/flare 180/touch 150) without problem - little bounce 2-3m.

 

I'm sure the above big bounce was big but have doubts as to it being 50m unless he was horribly fast in both speed and sink rate. Secondly, even if it was, he should have gone to full throttle and dragged himself back into the air for the go around.

Edited July 3, 2015 by [TBC]HerrMurf

[=LD=Penshoon]

 

I want to know how he got to fifty meters without breaking an awful lot of components first. The DM, while needing a few tweaks still, seems pretty consistent and predictable for ground contact. I flew the Yak for the first time ever on Wednesday. I landed it a little fast (approach 210/flare 180/touch 150) without problem - little bounce 2-3m.

 

I'm sure the above big bounce was big but have doubts as to it being 50m unless he was horribly fast in both speed and sink rate. Secondly, even if it was, he should have gone to full throttle and dragged himself back into the air for the go around.

I just tried to recreate this 50m bounce but no luck. Even when I turned on the "unbreakable" cheat and dived down to the runway and smacked the ground at over 400kph I wouldn't bounce higher than a few meters. Pretty funny to play with that cheat though!

[LukeFF]

 

 

But as we all know, simmers never trust what real pilots have to say, because, charts.

 

Great, now square that with what Dakpilot wrote above. 

[Y-29.Silky]

I'm not going to read 5 pages of comments but..

 

About the flaps, I am noticing it more and more, the more I fly it in multiplayer. The flaps on the Yak provide amazing lift that almost seems too good! Now if it's historically accurate, awesome, but if it's not historically accurate, it needs to change. For people who are throwing this out the window like I did at first because he showed no proof, please don't! Thoroughly try it in multiplayer expert before you say this is a garbage claim. It is seemingly easy to deploy your flaps and receive a massive spring of lift whether it be on the vertical or horizontal axis.

Edited July 4, 2015 by [Y-29]Silky

[FuriousMeow]

Just because it seems wrong, doesn't mean it is. One of the complaints was that the flaps didn't provide the same drag as the LaGG-3, and that's accurate because the LaGG-3 has larger flaps that deploy at sharper angles.

 

Now the complaint is the the flaps are "just wrong." That needs to be instantly dismissed, it is not evidence of anything.

 

Bring data to the table to show they are wrong, that hasn't happened. It's always the plane that puts up the best fight against the "superior" air force that gets so much attention, but there's always a distinct lack of data. If it can't easily be defeated, or actually shoots them down in a 1:1, then it's clearly wrong because that is impossible.

 

"There's something wrong!" Prove it. "I can't, but just fly it and you'll see!" Okay, I have and I don't see it.

 

I had a hell of a fun time in the 109G2 diving onto Yak pairs and zooming away before I had to bug out for fuel. Damaged one, thought for sure he was a kill but no dice. Killed the pilot of another. Had another Yak come up after me and I just ran away. This was at 3.5KM to 4KM, where the 109 is actually better than the Yak.

 

I bet all of these "the Yak is too good!" is from close in knife fights at 3KM or less where the Yak is actually a better dogfighter than the 109 in many ways.

 

Hard data will show something is wrong. Feelings are extremely insufficient and lack any substance.

Edited July 4, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Hard data? Well, if you think that it's possible you may want to go into detail how.

 

There has been another thread where flaps were discussed extensively. In max speed level lfight tests the Yak proved to indeed have drag penalty (which is natural) but - and that's the bigger issue - wrong crit AoA.

 

Landing flaps produce more lift than combat flaps but the increase in lift vs deployment angle isn't linear. That's why the benefitial gain of lift vs the massive increasing drag made landing flaps unsuited in aior combat (hence the combat flaps setting).

 

Another issue of current flaps is they can't be damaged by Over G. You can deploy flaps completely and go into hard pulled turns without bothering to damage your flap mechanism or wing structure. That issue is more obvious on the Yak due to more abuse than on other planes in BoS.

 

So to sum, those are the Yaks issues:

- flaps induce drag, ammount of drag may be questionable

- flaps don't give any / enough penaly infrom of AoA increasement => pilot can pull harder in turns without stalling the aircraft

- flaps can't be damaged by too high G and drag forces during hard turns for example

[Y-29.Silky]

Just because it seems wrong, doesn't mean it is. 

And this is the exact mentality I'm talking about, I'm even guilty of it. But seriously, go into Jupps server because it's action packed, fly the Yak for an hour, and you'll know what we're talking about.

Edited July 4, 2015 by [Y-29]Silky

[SR-F_Winger]

I would sooo much have a statement by the devs on this.

Maybe if all threadparticipants make a "Devs please give us a statement on this" post they might actually respond. This silence is deafening.

Edited July 4, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[Saurer]

Well i'd say wait until we get the final patch notes for 1.101 when it is released. Jason is atleast aware of the flap issue and forwarded it to the ones responsible for the FM's. 

[MK_RED13]

How many of these (flaps problem) threads were made??? All of them are withou devs comments... isn't it weird?

 

Ed.

[Finkeren]

How many of these (flaps problem) threads were made??? All of them are withou devs comments... isn't it weird?

 

Ed.

 

Not at all weird, no.

 

The devs have pretty bad experiences with engaging in open discussion about these things. Trust me: They are reading threads like these and do take them seriously (as has been proven by countless fixes and tweaks over the past year)

 

However, if you believe you have a strong case for some part of the FM being wrong, you can always collect your documentation and present it along with your argument in a PM sent to Han or another memeber of the team. Such input always gets taken seriously (though obviously not always resulting in any changes) and will always get a serious reply.

[mb339pan]

+1

 

We expect corrections in the future (maybe)

Flap for Yak

 

No dispersion for russian weapon

Edited July 4, 2015 by 150GCT_Pan

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

How many of these (flaps problem) threads were made??? All of them are withou devs comments... isn't it weird?

 

Ed.

It is not weird at all.

 

Look at all of the current fixes in the next patch. Very few, if any, were discussed openly by the Devs in this forum. None of them were fixed in less than 120 days. Most of the bigger fixes were discussed ad nausem by the community prior to the the patch announcement.

 

It takes time, money and probably a fair amount of discussion on our part to make it happen. First they have to know about the problem, either through us (yelling at each other ) or testers finding them, then they have to prioritize and some of that is factored/balanced by the amount of angst in the community as well as their current committment to the develpment track, and lastly they have to implement the fix - which takes into account the above factors of time, money and human/development resources.

 

And FTR, as you have accused me of being an appologist/appeaser outside of these forums: The Yak flaps implementation is incorrect in the game.

 

There is a develpment track and it takes both time and resources from a fairly small develpment house to go back over their work. Don't forget there are pressures from the shareholders to get future releases out on time as well. I'm sure some fixes which have to be delayed and some that need immediate attention are gut wrenching decisions by the Devs for what they can realisitcally implement and over what timeframe. The good thing is they do listen even when it isn't obvious. And realistically, there are cultural differences in how they approach those decisions and how they communicate with us. It is, perhaps, the biggest thing I had to get used to with this team.

 

There are many considerations that go into fixes. Some of these, I'm sure, we are not privy to. All of the above affects their agility in reacting to our concerns.

 

So, not weird at all. Just not quick.

Edited July 4, 2015 by [TBC]HerrMurf

[Urra]

The flap issue was acknowledged and is being looked at. However last night on one of the servers I witness two ai yaks of a 4 group flight simultaneously flip upside down and start climbing up to get above me. Quite an aerobatics show.

[LukeFF]

 

 

No dispersion for russian weapon

 

Nonsense 

[Y-29.Silky]

[unreasonable]

The flap issue was acknowledged and is being looked at. However last night on one of the servers I witness two ai yaks of a 4 group flight simultaneously flip upside down and start climbing up to get above me. Quite an aerobatics show.

Did they have their flaps open?

[Urra]

unreasonable,

To be honest, I was too astonished to see them do that to remember now how the flaps where positioned.  I just remember saying out loud  "hol# #rap....!"

[Guest deleted@50488]

The flap issue was acknowledged and is being looked at. However last night on one of the servers I witness two ai yaks of a 4 group flight simultaneously flip upside down and start climbing up to get above me. Quite an aerobatics show.

 

That's the most advanced aerodynamics I've heard about in il2 bos

 

Really ?

 

Ok, they'll address it some day... After all my other sim also has a bunch of inaccuracies, and I do prefer BoS as it is right now... But I do get irritated when a LagG3 or a Yak-1 can actually follow me in a climb, above 2500', and close enough to shoot me down after a Z&B in my Fw190 A3 :-/