Jump to content
StG77_Roo5ter

A Reasonable Plan to Expand the Player Base

Recommended Posts

I'm not talking about this campaign, I'm talking about the RoF campaign.  A campaign that people are now raving about.  No one plays it.  

 

And the campaign that you want would put them out of business.

 

No need to exaggerate, I have been playing it nearly every day for weeks! 

 

Seriously though, most SP campaign players fly PWCG anyway, (which incorporates everything the Career mode does and then some extra features), at least according to the forum traffic. Given how few people fly RoF MP on a regular basis it is hard to claim that no one is playing RoF SP, it would be more correct to say that almost no one plays RoF full stop.

 

Having said that, much as I would like a fuller campaign for BoS/BoM, it may be true that this would not make a huge difference to player numbers. I suspect that your earlier point about the generation who grew up in the shadow of WW2 beginning to die off is very relevant. For us baby-boomers WW2 was everything, for modern youth it is ancient history. How many people would be interested in a detailed simulation of galley warfare in the Peloponnesian War? (Apart from me that is :))

 

My personal view is that the volume sales model of business is just not going to work for much longer for these type of niche products. Either the production costs have got to be cut by turning them into some kind of community generated product, or the prices charged will have to reflect the true costs of producing a high quality, low volume sim in house. Perhaps some product placement, or advertising between missions?

Edited by unreasonable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not talking about this campaign, I'm talking about the RoF campaign. A campaign that people are now raving about. No one plays it.

 

And the campaign that you want would put them out of business.

We've been over that. The reason nobody plays that campaign is because the developers forgot to put the aeroplanes in it. Fix that and it would be worth every cent it took to make.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not talking about this campaign, I'm talking about the RoF campaign.  A campaign that people are now raving about.  No one plays it.  

 

And the campaign that you want would put them out of business.

 

Most people  do not play campaigns  cause they need to  affirm their complex " superiority" in flying or whatever in the game,  by shooting others in a multi-player. That's why multi-player sells.

 And that's also why  games like War thunder that have 3 modes ( arcade - simulation and realistic) can attract all tastes for a game play. There you see unorganized people all in a server trying to shoot each other opposite team members. The heck with the game targets most time , everybody likes to shoot the planes and not the  ground targets ( when there are ones on the mission)

 Once in a while there may be 2 or  3 in a team and play their game within the game..And that's a way to get some satisfaction, nothing bad about it but that's how it goes.

 

 Personally I do not do multi  player since there is nothing to prove to myself or others ( at least about my flying skills or the abillity to spot the " enemy" )

I believe though that a good made dynamic campaign  which will enable or disable the player to change the outcome of the war, with strategic targets and missions to be chosen, and with this and that offers to be unlocked and other pilot attributes to be developed ( where they could be perhaps used also on multi player as an advance) will be very interesting for many.

 

It is how it is given that  counts and not only what is given.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people  do not play campaigns  cause they need to  affirm their complex " superiority" in flying or whatever in the game,  by shooting others in a multi-player. That's why multi-player sells.

 

 

They're not playing MP, either.  They're mostly playing quick missions.  The money spent on creating a campaign is mostly wasted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making BoS/BoM more like RoF is not the answer.

 

The devs themselves have admitted that Rise of Flight was not an economic success, even with a great campaign, even with a free to play component added, even with the ability to only buy the planes you want.

 

As to what the answer is, I don't know.

 

Maybe there isn't one and this is just the last act of this play.

 

I got nuthin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've been over that. The reason nobody plays that campaign is because the developers forgot to put the aeroplanes in it. Fix that and it would be worth every cent it took to make.

 

Or not.  When you develop your flight sim, you can risk all your money on the thing that the available data says will fail miserably.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They're not playing MP, either.  They're mostly playing quick missions.  The money spent on creating a campaign is mostly wasted.

 

 There are all shorts of players then and I guess they miss, cause one can do the campaign in quick mode and is no more different that doing quick missions.. + one gets the benefit of the task and immersion of an unknown mission to explore.

 Personally I wouldn't buy the game if it hadn't  the campaign, Just shooting couple of fixed targets is just plain boring after a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And you still haven't offered anything constructive on how to build numbers in BOS or combat flight sims in general.

 

Disagree 100%

 

First and foremost

 

Identifying the problem, as being with the users themselves, which quite a few agreed with by the way, is constructive IMHO..

 

Now that we have identified the problem..

 

The question is how do you make a generation, the x-gens, who know very little about WWII care about WWII..

 

Not sure that you can!

 

And honestly like that is also constructive IMHO..

 

You may not like that answer, but that does not mean it is not constructive..

 

As many have pointed out, just about everything that can be tried has been tried by this and other realistic flight sims..

 

And all the realistic flight sims are struggling..

 

The only flight sims that are doing well are the x-gens x-box type of dubbed down flight sims with the emphasis on eye candy..

 

So, there is your constructive answer..

 

Dumb down the realistic flights sims to lower the learning curve and make sure the eye candy is cutting edge..

 

Problem solved for flight sim makers..

 

All we can hope and pray for is they make enough money to include a realistic mode so the 10 to 30 old timers can play in the server that shows up at the bottom of the list of servers when you sort by number of players. ;)

Edited by ACEOFACES

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making BoS/BoM more like RoF is not the answer.

 

The devs themselves have admitted that Rise of Flight was not an economic success, even with a great campaign, even with a free to play component added, even with the ability to only buy the planes you want.

 

As to what the answer is, I don't know.

 

Maybe there isn't one and this is just the last act of this play.

 

I got nuthin.

 

 

 Probably WWI is not that  thrilling among virtual war pilots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  Personally I wouldn't buy the game if it hadn't  the campaign, Just shooting couple of fixed targets is just plain boring after a while.

 

Fighting the AI is boring.  That is why people who play SP complain constantly about how boring it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I do not do multi  player since there is nothing to prove to myself or others ( at least about my flying skills or the abillity to spot the " enemy" )

 

Whether or not you feel the need to prove yourself isn't really the point of MP.  It's about the challenge of playing against other people.  Sometimes it's no challenge at all because they don't see you.  Or sometimes they're just not very good.  Other times they kick your ass while carrying on a conversation in the mission chat.  Only one thing seem to be constant, even the best SP players get their butts handed to them in MP until they get some experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not talking about this campaign, I'm talking about the RoF campaign.  A campaign that people are now raving about.  No one plays it.  

 

And the campaign that you want would put them out of business.

hahahahahahaahahahahahaahah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fighting the AI is boring. That is why people who play SP complain constantly about how boring it is.

Add to that any number of threads about why is MP so dead and where is everybody. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As this thread illustrates yet again, it would probably be better for a sim maker to design a new game as either MP or SP but not both.

 

Or the SP game can just follow the Goat Simulator MP Emulation mode, with bots that insist on flying the axis planes, vulch at airfields and send chat rude messages in the "noobs suk lol" mode. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not looking for a "clone" but when you call your product the "continuation of the il2 series" there needs to be familiarity  for the sake of a fluid transfer to the new product, we should be able to open the ME and feel at home while at the same time scratching our heads over all the new features just like it was with CLOD, of course the biggest nightmare of all for CLOD was there was no documentation on all the features of the ME but none the less the community went right to work providing user based how-to's in word and video.

Do I think that 777 should have rewritten their ME to function like the old IL2? no, of course not that would be a waste of time but on the other hand they should have released the beta ME 6 months prior to game  release to the rest of the founders that they had given to the "chosen"...so we could start getting familiar with the unfamiliar and helping each other out like we have done since the beginning. Just imagine the content  that could have been created buy the time of official release....

I see the community has come through again with "HyperLobby function" as you call it but that really is not the community's job to be adding core features that should already exist on top of the fact they just announced presales of BOM is ...well...questionable to put it nicely and as you noted why are they hiding it? thought it only add to the game...

It's silly to think nothing would/could/should change in 12 years. These are different games, different engines...times change, man! I agree they should have released the mission editor much, much, MUCH earlier than they did (I got it early due to being a tester and look at the stuff I'm creating...and I'm an imbecile). Feeling right at home should be relative to the function you're performing in regards to any game editor...you figure out the logic and employ what you learn. It's the same cycle no matter what the UI looks like. Perhaps in 6 months the people that actually know what they're doing will have made some amazing stuff for this game.

 

I giggle a little bit when people reference CloD in terms of "what it should have been"...look at CloD right now. It's dead. It's nothing and never going to be anything but a hopeful memory. It'll have the same dwindling ~100 guys playing on weekends hoping for the one or two guys script hacking in their basement and changing gun sounds to "revolutionize and resurrect" the game to "keep the dream alive". If CloD is your standard for success, we're all doomed.

 

Wasn't HyperLobby community created in the first place? Why would a company spend time/money/resources on creating something that is easily created by someone that can do it as their hobby? "Should already exist" is subjective...I don't need it, nor do I think 777/1C should use their resources to build one. It's really not that hard to create/find a mission you want to run, host a server, and use the myriad of social outlets to find a group of people to play a co-op with. Hell, you could run your mission, start a server and title it "Co-Op server, come join!" and I bet you'd get traffic. I can tell you right now to join a TeamSpeak server that has a handful of people in it regularly and start making friends, but I imagine you won't listen...the official BoS/777 teamspeak or ts3.thewetbandits.org is a good start, if I'm wrong.

 

The onus is on you.

Edited by AbortedMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If young people weren't interested in WW2 why do people play WT?

 

Team deathmatch with planes? I think it has more to do with the gameplay and the fact that it's PvP. It's also extremely easy to pick up and play, at least at the arcade level, which is where the majority of players are.

 

I'm not young though, so I can only speculate.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right.  Joe Doe's who buy in will still be giving $$ to the project regardless of whether they stayed or not and I mentioned in the original post this would help people who are on the fence or just wanting some sort of demo before buying in which would be a good part of the exact crowd you just mentioned.

I stand by what I wrote.This game,or any other CFS like DCS is NOT for simple Joe.There is nothing you can do to attract simple Joe to such complicated stuff with steep learning curve.And asking few dollars for one plane just to make him buy it and then leave it cause it is really not what he wants to play is exactly what some of the vocals here call "milking the customer" and many times acuse devs of doing so.

This is niche market for enthusiast hobbyst.Thats why it is also priced as it is.You can lynch me for this,but I dare to say that the price is LOW comparing to what you get in BoS/BoM.Investment will be done by people,who either have past experience with old sturm series or want to experience more thus transiting from WT to higher level CFS.Be it DCS or BoS/BoM franchise.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a reason no one is playing the campaign.  If the campaign had some tweaks and more historical story to it rather here kill/bomb this people WOULD be playing it.  

 

Although you are most propably right, it has nothing to do with this discussed topic. Not a single new player will buy the game, even if it gets the best dynamic campaign you can think of.

 

I would prefer the demo version: 2 planes for free. No further changes in pricing.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well whaddaya know...I jump online and see about 20 servers...with about 50% of them locked!! *sigh* so much for non segregation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well whaddaya know...I jump online and see about 20 servers...with about 50% of them locked!! *sigh* so much for non segregation

 

Probably because most of the locked ones are just for squad training or mission testing etc, mine is also locked for those two reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand by what I wrote.This game,or any other CFS like DCS is NOT for simple Joe.There is nothing you can do to attract simple Joe to such complicated stuff with steep learning curve.And asking few dollars for one plane just to make him buy it and then leave it cause it is really not what he wants to play is exactly what some of the vocals here call "milking the customer" and many times acuse devs of doing so.

This is niche market for enthusiast hobbyst.Thats why it is also priced as it is.You can lynch me for this,but I dare to say that the price is LOW comparing to what you get in BoS/BoM.Investment will be done by people,who either have past experience with old sturm series or want to experience more thus transiting from WT to higher level CFS.Be it DCS or BoS/BoM franchise.

Sorry but I disagree. I don't think even old/enthusiastic simmers are easily paying big bucks for a game they don't know. I can only repeat myself, the RoF modular concept was genius in my eyes. I was not into biplanes of that era and was very sceptical to invest in it at first.

If I hadn't been able to fly 2 great planes for free and explore MP gameplay I would probably not payeyed for it, even less if they charged 60-80 bucks for it. There somehow always seems to be a strange divergence of what is profitable for the devs and customer friendly in BoS however.

 

If we had a free to play / starter pack modular system for BoS I probably could have introduced our whole squadrom to BoS. Convincing them to charge 60 bucks for a game they dont know while they don't have much free time to invest into it did not work that well though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fighting the AI is boring.  That is why people who play SP complain constantly about how boring it is.

 

Fighting human players online is boring. They're so predictable: 99.9% fly fighters and have it out between the two closest fields in a never-ending gangbang.

 

The problem of the SP "campaign" is that it isn't one. It's neither historical nor does it tell a story. It lacks immersion and as such projects a cold and "heartless" appearance. To me flying sims like BoS is all about history - the right units with the right aircraft type in the right places doing the right kind of missions within a believable environment that interacts with me inside and outside the missions (GUI). That is what I seek in campaigns. The campaign system of BoS had a number of potentially valuable parts, including the "unlock" stuff but these were combined in the worst possible way so that these actually detract from playability and immersion. Unfortunate for me but a business decision by the producers. That's life.

Edited by csThor
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry but I disagree. I don't think even old/enthusiastic simmers are easily paying big bucks for a game they don't know. I can only repeat myself, the RoF modular concept was genius in my eyes. I was not into biplanes of that era and was very sceptical to invest in it at first.

If I hadn't been able to fly 2 great planes for free and explore MP gameplay I would probably not payeyed for it, even less if they charged 60-80 bucks for it. There somehow always seems to be a strange divergence of what is profitable for the devs and customer friendly in BoS however.

 

If we had a free to play / starter pack modular system for BoS I probably could have introduced our whole squadrom to BoS. Convincing them to charge 60 bucks for a game they dont know while they don't have much free time to invest into it did not work that well though.

 

I agree with Brano completely but I also agree with you abuot ROF. I downlaoded the free trial when we were waiting for BOS early access and was really pleasantly surprised, so much so I ended up buying everything in a sale. I don't fly it a lot but I loved the different aircraft etc.

 

Any free trail is only going to be entice at people who already fly sims and give owners of other sims a chance to see what it's like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A downloadable demo with 1 or 2 SP missions on a small summer and winter map ...bingo

 

Cheers Dakpilot

THIS!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sterility of the genre and the attitudes of the community members have run everybody off. Free starter AC and green maps aren't gonna change that.    

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to get rid of the unlocks .

You need to make the campaign enjoyable.

You need to make it historic.

You need to make the player feel immersed.

You need to make the multiplayer Coop. 100+ players on server .

You need to make MODs available.

 

OR FAIL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sterility of the genre and the attitudes of the community members have run everybody off. Free starter AC and green maps aren't gonna change that.

 

Flight sims have reached a creative crisis, where artistry and innovation in the user experience has been all but lost. Gameplay is something that might get added later, if and when the developers have the time. Customers who can appreciate the importance of a quality campaign and historical setting are considered "too hard core". Developers gamble their success on an empty sandbox philosophy, and have difficulty understanding why a technically correct but sterile environment does not catch the popular imagination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fighting human players online is boring. They're so predictable: 99.9% fly fighters and have it out between the two closest fields in a never-ending gangbang.

 

1.  It appears that you have never flown on a server like The Eagle's Nest.  

2.  Humans are a lot less predictable than AI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fighting human players online is boring. They're so predictable: 99.9% fly fighters and have it out between the two closest fields in a never-ending gangbang.

 

 I agree to that more or less on the percentage.. well a bit less. AI can also be predictable  most times.

 

 

 

To me flying sims like BoS is all about history - the right units with the right aircraft type in the right places doing the right kind of missions within a believable environment that interacts with me inside and outside the missions (GUI).

 

 Yes  can be that too a histrical aspect for a nice flight sim like this is a necessity without being the only thing at the other side. But for sire one cannot really recreate that.100% there are missions to be  found in lost archieves and whatever and that perhaps is not 100% possible. SO we can talk about partially historical missions or some of them.

Edited by AvengerSeawolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supporting Member Join Date Jan 2012 Location Vancouver BC Posts 22 Post Thanks / Like collapse_40b.png  
 
icon8.png Re: Your thoughts on Next-Gen Simulators
I have very bad experience with making suggestions.
After this post http://forums.ubi.com/archive/index.php/t-264633.html - they managed to ph..c up Silent Hunter 4 and 5. devilish.gif
Personally I think next step should be step back to the time where 3-4 hundred guys could join in at one server and because we have 2013 and not 1993 this server should have permanent war.
Right now I'm talking about sacrificing meteorology, architecture, botany etc. and concentrate on quantity, damage and flight models. We reached some kind of wall in development of AI.
So automatically single player aspect of the sim should be put aside. Few of us for sure remember "dirt" of Rowan's BOB in which wasn't important effect of blurred propeller because one didn't have a time
for that shit in 70 plus furball. As of today I see flight simms users as a congregation of scale modelers instead of "killers". Somewhere on the road weathered paint become more important than proper fire, smoke or midair "bang".

nynek

The original date of this post of mine was Apr-11-2013, 15:49

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I agree to that more or less on the percentage.. well a bit less. AI can also be predictable  most times.

 

 

You should try flying on Eagle's Nest or Syndicate.  It's absolutely nothing like your imaginary MP server that you never fly on.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1.  It appears that you have never flown on a server like The Eagle's Nest.  

2.  Humans are a lot less predictable than AI.

 

I was being sarcastic. In my opinion online is a neverending gangbang with other types being merely window dressing. Fighters are relatively easy and rewarding, hence they're being flown at the expense of a realistic environment. That is the predictability of humans: 99% will choose a fighter and go looking for an argument. Everything becomes fighter-centered ... I've seen it years ago and simply stopped caring about online. My personal requirements for missions are simply incompatible with what 99% of the online players want. An example? I fly Stukas. How many else would do (regularly, not as an exception)? Historical missions, and I mean really historical with right units in the right places with the right types operating within the historical environment with tasks and goals researched according to the ground situation in 1942/43, just don't happen online because everyone wants to be [insert favourite fighter ace reborn here]. That is not what I want so why should I bother?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was being sarcastic. In my opinion online is a neverending gangbang with other types being merely window dressing. 

 

Yes, I'm aware of your opinion.  It has no basis in reality.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't have to .. It's his opinion. Which he is entitled to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't have to .. It's his opinion. Which he is entitled to.

 

And?  I never said he had to change his opinion.  But he hasn't flown in any of the BoS MP servers, so he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.  Of course, he has every right to be an expert about something he knows nothing about.  It wouldn't be a flight sim forum without those posters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't have to .. It's his opinion. Which he is entitled to.

Based off other moderated posts throughout this forum, I'm not sure this statement is entirely accurate.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to associate on line missions to specific airbases?? If you take a 109 from Kalach your only objective is to cover supply runs to Gumrak.

 

Is it possible to have the route on briefing screen and if you deviate from that corridor you will be turned back to route like when you reach map borders ???

 

That could make flying oriented to mission objective.

 

A good point system would help a lot. Did you have a wingman?? No?! So there is no one to confirm your kills.

 

No more solo flying and away from objectives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...