Pre-order and early access - discussion

[Livai]

But is it really not a huge deal? According to previous posts, the "extra 5mm" historically made a significant difference. A 5mm increase may sound small, but compared to a 15mm cartridge it's a 30% increase in diameter. If we approximate the shape of the cartridge as a cylinder and use the dimensions given by wikipedia for the MG151 cannon, we can see that the 15mm cartridge had a volume of pi * (15mm/2)² * 96mm = ~17cm³, while the 20mm cartridge had  a volume of pi * (20mm/2)² * 82mm = ~26cm³. That's about a 53% increase in cartridge volume. That's a LOT of additional explosive load.

 

Not to mention the fact that the 15mm gunpods were replaced across the entire line of fighters with 20mm because it was concluded that the 20mm cannons were outright superior, becoming the standard for cannon armaments on aircraft including the F-4.

 

(Source: Anthony G. Williams (2002). Rapid Fire: The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine-Guns and Their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces)

 

Yes, the 15mm was replaced with 20mm gunpods later. Right is, too that a Bf-109F with 20mm Gunpods was shot down during the Battle of Stalingrad, means the 20mm was used historical at this time period. But its still a Bf-109F and the Bf-109 G-2 was used at the same time, together, means you can Fly a old Friedrich or the new Gustav now and not need to wait years that this plane would be produced historical and delivered to the squadron. The Bf-109 G-2/R6 has 20mm gunpods, too and its better than a Bf-109F. The Bf-109G Series had 15mm and updated 20mm gunpods later like the Bf-109F,too. 

 

Some interesting informations gives hope------->

 

"The gunpods were introduced with the Bf 109F and were a good addition for the 2x7.92mm guns and the 15mm gun. But with the guns, the good flight charactaristics were hampered.

The datas of flight test suggest that a Bf 109G-2 loose only 8km/h with gunpods (may be 12km/h) at sea level. With a high speed of 660km/h (665km/h in the Guidelines Section of our forum), lossing 8/12km/h. But there is the damn problem with the hampered flight characteristics. I am sure, that the pods will affect every turn/roll maneuver. But did it affect also every dive and climb?"

 

Many Games have exclusive content if you preorder a game for example. Personally there are much better ideas for a gift, for example:"Add all Founders to the Game Credits List". A gift is a gift. 

Edited October 8, 2013 by Superghostboy

[FlatSpinMan]

I think most people, including the devs, are now pretty well aware of both sides of the discussion thus far.

Your voices - on BOTH sides -  have definitely been heard.

 

I want to leave this thread open as people are free to give their opinions, but I'm worried it will start to get into a dead-horse flogging, division-generating kind of thread, and I have no desire whatsoever 

for that to happen on this particular site. The flightsim community strikes me as amoebic - constantly splitting itself. We don't need that.

 

Read the thread before you post.

Avoid posting things that have already been said.

Maintain mutual respect.

 

[kevman]

I say thanks for the free gift - its good to see some little extras for those who supported the game in the dev stages.

 

Alot of games have these kind of setups and it does not stop people playing them -look at bf4 and Rof for instance. In bf4 you can buy all the extras up front and some are only available to those who have premium edition. Get with the times.

Plus if you find yourself getting shot at by 15mm or 20mm really only you are to blame for getting in that situation in the first

place. Whatevet the muzzle size you are probably going to get shot down.

[Wombat]

Having gun pods will slow you down and make you less manoeuvrable. So except having a play I won't fly with them. I'd rather stay fast and alive. I don't see them as an advantage.

[Pizzicato]

There will come a time when each of us is on his respective death bed and we'll look back on the time and energy we put into this thread and say "What the hell was I thinking?"

[BraveSirRobin]

There will come a time when each of us is on his respective death bed and we'll look back on the time and energy we put into this thread and say "What the hell was I thinking?"

 

The sad thing is there are probably a few who will be thinking "that was time well spent..."

 

I'm happy to get free stuff.  If the decision to give free stuff to some people causes a backlash that destroys the game and kills the 777 and 1C brands forever, I will try to find something else to do with my life.

[SR-F_Winger]

I consider them useful only as part of a Rotte thats dedicated to killing bombers. This Rotte needs another Rotte thats dedicated to intercept scouts.

Fyling dedicated intercept missions with these is pretty brainless.

 

Winger

[SE.VH_Boemundo]

I am eagerly waiting for the download. Just buy it. I hope I do not get disappointed. $ 89.00 is a good money for a game. We'll get a message when the download is available?

 

Cheers.

Edited October 8, 2013 by =BLW=Ernst

[Heywooood]

still going on....

Ralith - my point was meant to be taken lightly...like a joke

 

..lets try not to take ourselves so seriously people - remember, founders keepers - losers weepers

 

if it makes you feel guilty to have the mod then dont use it...

if you think it isnt fair to someone that wont be able to get it? congratulations - you care about something relatively meaningless in the whole grand configuration of things

[=AVG=Zombie]

Really I see this early purchase a roll of the dice, if the game sucks I will say to myself, self you knew there was a possibility of the game sucking. If it is awesome then it is just that much more sweet, and to get bonus weapons mods and planes with skins - Great -!

Who cares if you have weapons someone else doesn't have or vice versa, just play the game and fly straight when am behind you!!!!! I don't care if what anybody says, everyone will eventually have the opportunity to either earn or buy the same setup we get as founders. So relax, have a drink and chill out till we get the download.

[SKG51_robtek]

Having gun pods will slow you down and make you less manoeuvrable. So except having a play I won't fly with them. I'd rather stay fast and alive. I don't see them as an advantage.

That is depending on your mission, if you are to destroy ground targets, i.e. aaa suppression the extra firepower is more important than maneuvrability.

If you have to stop bombers before reaching your airfield it's the same.

Only on a air superiority mission or on a free hunt mission they are more liability than useful.

Reading most of the posts here one will always have a pod-less escort.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Now is the time for every founder to go to founders section and vote in poll. Then there will be no more need to discuss the matter here anymore.

[Stlkrash]

Enough talking lets see something we can fly... This gun pod stuff is for later. That is eye candy. Most old school simmers want to see the simulation. It is way more important how well it performs before they add in all the eye candy.

[Jason_Williams]

Please cast your vote in this poll about R7 mod. No more discussion about it is needed. Just vote your opinion.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1568-poll-your-opinion-gift-exclusiveness/

 

Jason

[Revvin]

I hope the results of the poll will be tallied against the total number of founders just so we can be sure its a majority result and not a vocal minority one

[Rjel]

I hope the results of the poll will be tallied against the total number of founders just so we can be sure its a majority result and not a vocal minority one

Well, they gave people a chance to vote on this subject and some are still finding reason to complain in that thread too. Unbelievable.  

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Indeed these threads are clearly scientific proof that men also get PMT

[Wombat]

That is depending on your mission, if you are to destroy ground targets, i.e. aaa suppression the extra firepower is more important than maneuvrability.

If you have to stop bombers before reaching your airfield it's the same.

Only on a air superiority mission or on a free hunt mission they are more liability than useful.

Reading most of the posts here one will always have a pod-less escort.

Yes that's true. Good point.

[334th_L0C0]

Thanks for the gift.

 

I'll take all the gifts you can throw at me.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Call the whaambulance, enough said.

[messer79]

I sense hunger for some fresh news. October, 1st was ages ago. I'm tired of checking this site 100 times per day.

[Tektolnes]

Yes I do.  Lets take the total number of founders and the total number of complainers in that group.  What are we up to now?  About 3,000 founders?  And what, maybe a dozen complainers?  So, by my count it is roughly 2,988 in favor of to 12 against.  You lose.

Not your best idea ever it would seem looking at the current poll numbers...

[Mac_Messer]

Yeah, how goes the poll so far anyway?

[Tektolnes]

204-105 in favour of non-exclusive so far.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Yep 2-1 against.

[Revvin]

Let's put that in context, approximately 13% of the founders have voted, so that's very far from being any kind of majority decision

[Matt]

Why would that matter. It's not like the community decided something and now they are asking again if the community wants to revert its decision and need atleast as many no-votes as previous yes-votes.

[Bearcat]

204-105 in favour of non-exclusive so far.

Yep 2-1 against.

 

 

Being totally objective I find these two perspectives saying the same thing on the same subject interesting ....... just food for thought..

[Tektolnes]

Let's put that in context, approximately 13% of the founders have voted, so that's very far from being any kind of majority decision

13% of 3,000 is actually a good statistical sample size to indicate the overall feeling on a subject. There's little to indicate why this ratio would change significantly over the remaining voters. We'll see though I guess.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Being totally objective I find these two perspectives saying the same thing on the same subject interesting ....... just food for thought..

I suppose so! I hadn't thought about that really, just different ways of saying the same thing.

[=RvE=Windmills]

Snip

Edited October 10, 2013 by iLOVEwindmills

[Revvin]

13% of 3,000 is actually a good statistical sample size to indicate the overall feeling on a subject. There's little to indicate why this ratio would change significantly over the remaining voters. We'll see though I guess.

 

13% is the total number of voters, once you slice that again for yay's and nay's the figure gets smaller. 13% is 13% and no matter which way you cut it that's a very low number to base a decision on. There is little to indicate that this ratio would not change significantly so you can't make a decision based on an unknown quantity just by guessing that ratio won't change. If the total vote is closer to a majority turn-out then fair enough but right now it's very far off from being that.

[Matt]

There are two options, 20mm for Friedrich for founders only or for everyone.

 

Unless there is a third option I'm not aware of, any number of votes is sufficient.

 

And overall, this poll can run until the BoS gets released for non-founders, which will be some time next year. If 13% is not enough (which is debatable, with a 2:1 ratio).

[Rama]

Please....this isn't a political election. It isn't a call for crowd (founder) decision. It's just a call for opinions, no more.

I'm personally very glad and thankfull about the dev calling for our opinions, but I know they take the final decision (and whatever the decision, I'll respect it, play and enjoy the game).

[Tektolnes]

13% is the total number of voters, once you slice that again for yay's and nay's the figure gets smaller. 13% is 13% and no matter which way you cut it that's a very low number to base a decision on. There is little to indicate that this ratio would not change significantly so you can't make a decision based on an unknown quantity just by guessing that ratio won't change. If the total vote is closer to a majority turn-out then fair enough but right now it's very far off from being that.

Have a look at statistical sampling sizes. For a straight up yes / no decision with a 95% confidence level, a 5% margin of error and a population size of 3,000 the recommended sample size is 341. We're in and around that level now so statistically we're far, far more likely to end up with a similar ratio even if all the remaining founders vote.

[AndyJWest]

Have a look at statistical sampling sizes. For a straight up yes / no decision with a 95% confidence level, a 5% margin of error and a population size of 3,000 the recommended sample size is 341. We're in and around that level now so statistically we're far, far more likely to end up with a similar ratio even if all the remaining founders vote.

 

Um, no. The 'sample' is self-selected. Or to put it another way, it isn't a 'sample'. It is the entire population of those who have voted.

[JtD]

13% the total number is not that important. More important is the absolute number of 325 that makes statistics reliable, or not. It's much more accurate to extrapolate from 10.000 to 1.000.000 than it is to extrapolate from 10 to 1.000, even though in both cases you only have 1%. Feel free to throw a coin 325 times, and see how close you come to 50% for heads/tails. It will give you a pretty good clue about how reliable the poll already is. Or do the proper maths.

 

Edit: OK, too late. It appears Tektolnes has done the proper maths already. Here it is for everyone: http://www.nss.gov.au/nss/home.NSF/pages/Sample+size+calculator

Edited October 10, 2013 by JtD

[AndyJWest]

Statistics prove nothing We need charts. And a long document written in German, in a typeface that nobody can read. And at least one post referring to 'stress risers'. And Raaaid.... 

[Revvin]

Pie charts? everyone likes pie

[AndyJWest]