Pre-order and early access - discussion

[76SQN-FatherTed]

Another argument against this move is that, as yet, none of us actually knows whether these pods will prove to be an advantage or disadvantage.  We all surmising that the FM will accurately reflect the penalty for the extra weight and drag, but ***NEWSFLASH***  FMs have been known to be wrong in flightsims.  The argument that it doesn't matter that non-gold-bar-owners won't get their paws on the pods because things will even out relies on assuming something none of us actually knows.

[Rjel]

I really see this as just one more issue for everyone to overreact. It was a simple gesture of thanks. If they'd given the founders a Bf-109G6 or an La-7 that would be forever exclusive I could understand all the fuss. Like someone else said, most guys will try the gunpod a couple of times and likely never again. Then we can go onto the next end of all things sacred argument. Or discussion if you prefer.

[Mac_Messer]

Another argument against this move is that, as yet, none of us actually knows whether these pods will prove to be an advantage or disadvantage.  We all surmising that the FM will accurately reflect the penalty for the extra weight and drag, but ***NEWSFLASH***  FMs have been known to be wrong in flightsims.  The argument that it doesn't matter that non-gold-bar-owners won't get their paws on the pods because things will even out relies on assuming something none of us actually knows.

Spot on. In addition to that I underline the fact that we do not have the ability to customize ammobelt.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

This is all I can say about this discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI

[SKG51_robtek]

For bomber hunting and aaa suppression the pods with 20mm are very! useful.

To deny them to the majority (hopefully) of players is simply wrong, imho.

There should be a way for everybody to get them!

There will be many non-fighter targets.

There is a game beyond dogfighting.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Spot on. In addition to that I underline the fact that we do not have the ability to customize ammobelt.

 

I am glad of that

I really see this as just one more issue for everyone to overreact. It was a simple gesture of thanks. If they'd given the founders a Bf-109G6 or an La-7 that would be forever exclusive I could understand all the fuss. Like someone else said, most guys will try the gunpod a couple of times and likely never again. Then we can go onto the next end of all things sacred argument. Or discussion if you prefer.

 

Personally I think things like gunpods which were/might have been historically accurate shouldn't be forbidden from the rest of the simmers just because they didn't pre-order. The rewards of early access and input should be enough, if not then cool skins or pilot models would be enough. I would hate for certain stuff to be locked out of servers because it was only available to the founders.

Oh and by the wya I think the best way to reward the early beta testers/founders would be to just let them have access to all mods so they can test. We don't need extras

[Ralith]

I agree wholeheartedly; restricting the 20mm gunpods to preorders is a bad call. Everyone should have access to the same functional equipment. Make it an early unlock or something instead, if even that. I'm happy with early access alone as a preorder reward.

[Recon]

I agree wholeheartedly; restricting the 20mm gunpods to preorders is a bad call. Everyone should have access to the same functional equipment. Make it an early unlock or something instead, if even that. I'm happy with early access alone as a preorder reward.

 

I agree, and I don't really get this whole 'exclusiveness' aspect here.   So, next year when I'm playing this game, and convince a friend, or a co-worker to try out the game, and then have to explain to him why I have a IL2 rear gunner, and why I have a extra gunpods, I will have to explain to him "well, two years in order to raise more money, they made these exclusive, so only a handful of people have them" sounds just odd to me.

 

Look, I am buying into this to get early access and help support this title in hopes more will come down the line.  I don't want anything exclusive.  I want something my friends and squad mates  and I can get online and enjoy playing it together with the same equipment to win campaigns and missions.

 

5 years from now if this game still has a cult following like Il2, will there be thousands of people who will never be given 20mm gunpods ?  Odd.

 

 

Is the exclusiveness some tactic to raise money because there is a shortage ?  Are the sales bad ? 

 

It's a confusing message, we should be discussing what great new multiplayer and game engine features are coming up, not about silliness like this.

[LG1.Farber]

Be good fellow and gift your standard edition and purchase the premium.

you wont be able to turn with me to shred me! I will out turn your pod carrying ass and shoot it down in flames!!!

 

Also I think the pre-order continue into October makes me believe a November release?

He could not afford it at that time!  Why don't do you be a good fellow and buy him the premium if your made of gold.  Not everyone has the finds in these corrupt fraud ridden times of banker rape. Whilst the banksters are committing the greatest fraud ever seen in the open they are being rewarded and here you are telling some to buy twice... 

Edited October 2, 2013 by 5./JG27Farber

[Livai]

Wait, why is the Black Special Label and the Red Special Label exclusive? 

Wait, a 05mm gunpod difference is not visible that I have the 05mm bigger gun or is there someone that have eagle eyes and can see and feel during a dogfight 05mm difference?

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Since quite a few people seem to feel strongly about these gunpods, how about putting up a poll in founders section about it. So if most of the founders feel that these should be open to everyone, at least at some point, I am sure devs can make it so. And if most want to keep them exculsive, so be it.

[Rjel]

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it whichever way it might turn out if it were to be put to a poll. I think it was a nice gesture from the developers. I'm not convinced all the hand wringing is so much a matter of "fair play" as it is a continuation of the complaining from certain posters that has plagued this forum nearly from the git go. To be perfectly honest, I don't get a lot of gushy feeling from some of you that anything in the world matters beyond the end of your own nose.

[FuriousMeow]

Spot on. In addition to that I underline the fact that we do not have the ability to customize ammobelt.

 

But we'll have trees that can be collided with, landing gear with lateral traction giving accurate ground handling and AI that uses the same FM as the player.

[Creepermoss]

Man, I hope no-one gets exclusive founder skins...

[Pizzicato]

Sorry sir, but I searched the thread and you're wrong, at least for 2 of thoses 3 comments.

- I was the only one to tell about "deal breaker" before you mention it... and that was to say "it's not a deal breaker", so the exact contrary of what you "quoted".

- The only other person talking about "pay to win" was talking about RoF, not BoS.

 

And yes... you're "making up" quotes to suit your argument, maybe not intentionaly, but maybe because you didn't really read the arguments in the post and overeacted without trying to understand what was said.

 

So I need to hold my hand up and apologize on this. I'd only just woken up when I read the thread and responded and it looks like I misread some of the posts. I was 100% convinced that I'd seen what I thought I had seen, but Yaklover's post is really the only one that really seems like a major overreaction in retrospect. Totally my bad.

 

I do, however, stand by my opinion that this issue is a storm in a teacup.

[Ralith]

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it whichever way it might turn out if it were to be put to a poll. I think it was a nice gesture from the developers. I'm not convinced all the hand wringing is so much a matter of "fair play" as it is a continuation of the complaining from certain posters that has plagued this forum nearly from the git go. To be perfectly honest, I don't get a lot of gushy feeling from some of you that anything in the world matters beyond the end of your own nose.

Attack the arguments, not the people making them. I haven't even been on these forums until shortly before preorders opened.

[1./JG42Nephris]

Cant understand this whinery at all...remembers me in some points to those in Clodo forums....

If u dont like it, leave it.I guess sometimes people just dont know what they will achive by naiv whinery into the dark.

 

Thx for the extra gift, it is correct that premium founders get more attention by gifts here.

Judges about changes in fm are rediculess as noone played the game yet.

Those super historic fan boys shall just leave the pods off - easy like that isnt it?

 

Thx a lot for the gift, much appreciated.

Prefering a weapon but a skin.

[LukeFF]

For 777 Studios don't need to motivate people because they get new customer from 1C and the Knowhow from 1C,too. That is businesses.

 

What?

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

The gunpods are a pretty major upgrade.

 

Doesn't feel right to have those restricted to pre-orders only at all.

 

 

While it may be true that the gun pods won't make a huge difference, I still find it to be problematic to restrict these kinds of mods to pre-orderers.

 

I'm fine with unique skins and I'm fine with having mods already unlocked for pre-ordering. But to deprive people who discover/buy this game only after the pre-order phase of the chance to ever fly an F-4 with 20mm gun pods feels wrong to me.

 

I appreciate the gesture but personally I'd prefer to have all aircraft mods to be unlockable for everyone.

 

 

+1

As a "founder" I am glad that I can get my hands on these, but I have to concurr. It really does not feel right that these "mods" are for us only. I genuinely do NOT want a sim that benefit some from others in regards to equipment. I would like this sim to be a fair playground where the best pilo wins, not the one with the best /most mods.

Now, this is of course only true for multiplayer. For those who only play single player mode, of course these mod are welcome.If a serveradmin on a multiplayer server can tweak what mods are available, then we don't have this kind of problem anymore; we who want a fair playground can fly on servers where all mods are "off".

 

EDIT: I got my answer right there.. great!:

 

As far as ROF goes, there are following MP server settings:

Firstly Cooperative or Dogfight;

Next the typical settings:

-Internet access (makes it possible to only play intranet);

-Global statistics (most severs organise their own stats);

-Spectator mode;

-Kill notifications;

-Return friendly fire;

-Finish flight only landed;

-Lock Skins/Fuel/Load outs/Weapon mods;

Next server mission settings going from Expert to standard and customised.

On top of all that the mission editor gives lots of possibilities, probably only limited by one's imagination ...

E.g all kind of triggers may make other plane sets become available on the airfields.

Which brings us to the possibility of reservicing/rearming/repair returning planes ... which never really got implemented: a big sore if you ask me - so one has to end flight after landing and has to line up for the available planes.

 

...

 

I am greatful for all bonus stuff as a founder, - and I appreciate it, but honestly - early access is enough for me

 

Yup, this is why 20mm gunpods have both advantages and disadvantages.

BTW the similar weapon mod that will be available in the game by unlocking is R1 (15mm).

Anyway what I want you to pay attention to is that it's a gift for you, a symbol of sincere gratitude for your support. It's surprising to see that you speak as if you want to refuse it.

 

 

I think I talk for all of the guys; we do appreciate it..really; we just don't want to get an advantage over others in multiplayer mode

Edited October 3, 2013 by F19_Klunk

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks devs for this gift for the founding members. Much appreciated!

 

I like the way you chose a relatively less common weapon feature to provide for the F4. That way the historical scarcity of the gun pods will be reflected online and there won't be hordes of gondola-schmitts flying about the place. Very clever!

[FlatSpinMan]

Are you kidding me? This is the same wrong, insulting provocation that you posted in that other thread. As I said in the other post, this kind of baseless troll post is not welcome here.

[Ala13_Kokakolo]

I apologise about my previous post (now deleted) I wrote it before thinking. I believe this one reflects better my views.

In my squad, Ala13, we are right now discussing this move. The mayority of us do not like it. It is not the pods themselves. To be honest I cannot remember any time I used them in the almost 10 years I have been playing Il2. But is the principia behind it. There were other options, like skins, labels, exclusive badges... There is a true necessity in this comunity to find a suitable succesor for IL2, and right now the choices are only DCS or 777. I am a proud owner of ROF and also DCS world, so I my heart is divided here. I will probably end buying both, but also probably we will end using (as a squad) only one of them.

 

We are a mature squad, we play mostly online, many of us at the same time. We have good relationship with other squads and sometimes we fly internationally (90 of us in a coop yesterday) We need a sim that do not restrict the weapons we can use if we want to recreate an historical mission, however silly small weapon it might lool like.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Ala13_Kokakolo

[LLv44_Mprhead]

 

 What is telling me is that the developer's aproach is like any other arcade "battlefield 4 type" game. Some of us want a serious sim, not a war of planes. There will be always the option to go to DCS. 

 

This is just so lame. I have been civil when posting, and will try to continue that, but these kind of baseless, provocative and derogatory comments make it rather hard.

 

We are a mature squad

 

You really fooled me with your comments

[Ala13_Kokakolo]

Some of us are very irritable after the CLOD fiasco (even if I now fly it regularly after the Team Fusiion intervention), but you are right this is not an excuse. I have deleted the post already and apologised. Nevertherless I re-wrote the whole thing again after calming and thinking. I believe there are still valid points though.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Ala13_Kokakolo

[FlatSpinMan]

I apologise about my previous post (now deleted) I wrote it before thinking. I believe this one reflects better my views.

In my squad, Ala13, we are right now discussing this move. The mayority of us do not like it. It is not the pods themselves. To be honest I cannot remember any time I used them in the almost 10 years I have been playing Il2. But is the principia behind it. There were other options, like skins, labels, exclusive badges... There is a true necessity in this comunity to find a suitable succesor for IL2, and right now the choices are only DCS or 777. I am a proud owner of ROF and also DCS world, so I my heart is divided here. I will probably end buying both, but also probably we will end using (as a squad) only one of them.

 

We are a mature squad, we play mostly online, many of us at the same time. We have good relationship with other squads and sometimes we fly internationally (90 of us in a coop yesterday) We need a sim that do not restrict the weapons we can use if we want to recreate an historical mission, however silly small weapon it might lool like.

Welcome to the forums, Kokalo:-) . I see your point, and thank you for editing your earlier post.

Remember though, there will be other gunpods you can use, and I don't think there's going to be many things like this in BoS.

[Bearcat]

I don't see what the big fuss is. Gunpods neuter the 109's performance. 20mm gunpods, shoot down an Il-2 slightly easier than the guy with the 15mm gunpods - maybe a little quicker. Both will still be anemic fighters, so once you get engaged it's game over for either gunpod equipped 109F4.

 

They sure do..

 

Yup, this is why 20mm gunpods have both advantages and disadvantages.

BTW the similar weapon mod that will be available in the game by unlocking is R1 (15mm).

Anyway what I want you to pay attention to is that it's a gift for you, a symbol of sincere gratitude for your support. It's surprising to see that you speak as if you want to refuse it.

 

Which will probably have the same disadvantages as the 20mm gun pods..

 

Not a good move for me, I support 99% of what the devs do, but weapons others can`t have is just a way to create division in the ranks which so far has been avoided. I`m with Hammerhead on this, a better way to reward early purchasers would be a small discount on their next purchase, I personally feel getting the game early is a big enough reward.

 

Divison in the ranks comes from folks who choose to be divisive.. I don't see this  as such a big deal.. and you can bet all the advantages that a 109 has over a Yak Lagg or La for that matter will vanish with these gun pods on the wings.

 

these gameplay-influencing exclusive DLCs (founders-only aircrafts/field mods) are marketing stunts I really hate, and are even worse in a flight sim.

some exclusive skins or free field mods would have been enough..

makes you wonder how far is 777 willing to go in order to secure some extra cash..

 

I think this is less "gameplay influencing" than you think.. It would be different if this were say something like extra ammo or a different air to air loadout.. This is a bonus that will bite any user in the butt or could.. and then when you factor in the fact that the 15mm equivalent is unlockable and available to all.. it becomes a non  issue really if you think about it.

 

Let's just avoid phrases like 'wailing and gnashing' and 'knee jerk reaction'.

They'll just irritate other members.

 

I always thought that folks who got bent out of shape over things like that were being overly sensitive but many do find it offensive so...

[Bearcat]

Another argument against this move is that, as yet, none of us actually knows whether these pods will prove to be an advantage or disadvantage.  We all surmising that the FM will accurately reflect the penalty for the extra weight and drag, but ***NEWSFLASH***  FMs have been known to be wrong in flightsims.  The argument that it doesn't matter that non-gold-bar-owners won't get their paws on the pods because things will even out relies on assuming something none of us actually knows.

 

I think the FMs will be more accurate than in IL2.. and in IL2 a 109 with gun pods against an average pilot in a fighter is a sitting duck. I think as I said above it will be a non issue.

 

For bomber hunting and aaa suppression the pods with 20mm are very! useful.

To deny them to the majority (hopefully) of players is simply wrong, imho.

There should be a way for everybody to get them!

There will be many non-fighter targets.

There is a game beyond dogfighting.

 

This whole "issue" is taken out of context. What needs to be looked at here in this case is not 20mm gun pods or no 20mm gunpods.. it is 20mm gun pods vs 15mm gun pods.. When you put it in that context is it really that big a deal?

 

What?

^^^^ What?

[Dakpilot]

"This whole "issues" is taken out of context. What needs to be looked at here in this case is not 20mm gun pods or no 20mm gunpods.. it is 20mm gun pods vs 15mm gun pods.. When you put it in that context is it really that big a deal?  :blink:"

 

THIS

 

20mm are available on G model to anyone in game, no-one is missing out

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[=RvE=Windmills]

I think the FMs will be more accurate than in IL2.. and in IL2 a 109 with gun pods against an average pilot in a fighter is a sitting duck. I think as I said above it will be a non issue.

 

 

This whole "issues" is taken out of context. What needs to be looked at here in this case is not 20mm gun pods or no 20mm gunpods.. it is 20mm gun pods vs 15mm gun pods.. When you put it in that context is it really that big a deal?

 

^^^^ What?

 

 

Considering the 151/15 is borderline useless in the original Il2, while the 20mm is among the most capable weapons ingame I do believe there's a huge difference. Now Il2s modelling of non explosive shells wasn't all that great, but unless it completely misrepresented the weapon there's still a massive difference.

 

I wouldn't even dream of lugging an extra 150kg+drag around for some glorified .50 cals.

Edited October 3, 2013 by iLOVEwindmills

[Rama]

What needs to be looked at here in this case is not 20mm gun pods or no 20mm gunpods.. it is 20mm gun pods vs 15mm gun pods.. When you put it in that context is it really that big a deal?

 

For solo carreer it's probably no big deal, and for online dogfight it's no deal at all.

 

For coop and online wars, it could be a little problem.

Imagine the following situation: a coop creator, or an online war robot create a mission featuring for a german flight a group of gunpod equiped Bf.109F-4 to hunt IL2 and a group of pure fighters to protect them. The choice of the gunpod is the 20mm, since 15mm are inneficients against IL2 (historical fact). Then comes the time to fly the coop mission (or the online war mission), peoples from diverse squad choose their mounts... will you label the IL2 hunters group "founders only"... and what if no founders are arround online when the mission start?

So... maybe no big deal, but certainly at least a little problem and a legitimate concern.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Somebody should now find out how much use those MG151/20 gunpods did see historically. For those who are worried about ability to fly historically correct missions. My bet is that the action they saw was next to none, but this ofc is just a gut feeling.

And btw, Kokakolo, nice to see you are one of those (rare) individuals who can admit their mistakes. So I guess I was wrong when thinking that you were not very mature

As for those gunpods, I think it's non-issue as there are severe drawbacks in using them and because I really don't think that they saw much action at all. And it was very nice gesture from devs. That said, I still rather had that everyone had a possibility to unlock them during the gameplay.

[StG2_Manfred]

Another argument against this move is that, as yet, none of us actually knows whether these pods will prove to be an advantage or disadvantage.  We all surmising that the FM will accurately reflect the penalty for the extra weight and drag, but ***NEWSFLASH***  FMs have been known to be wrong in flightsims.  The argument that it doesn't matter that non-gold-bar-owners won't get their paws on the pods because things will even out relies on assuming something none of us actually knows.

FMs are not completely correct compared to real world, but you can easily create differences between different models/loudouts/whatever, otherwise all planes would habe the same FM and performance, right? So I don't understand that point.

[Mac_Messer]

FMs are not completely correct compared to real world, but you can easily create differences between different models/loudouts/whatever, otherwise all planes would habe the same FM and performance, right? So I don't understand that point.

My take on this quote is that we really don`t know yet wha penalties will the 20mm gunpod version of the F4 have. We assume it will be very sluggish and that is all. Now how the actual game is going to do this, that is the real question. From my pov the gunpods are a great trait, looking at the 109G2 - a little more sluggish but still very usable and certainly not a flying rock. Will the F4 20mm variant be the same? How will the 20mm gunpods reflect upon the FM and DM in the game?

[StG2_Manfred]

My take on this quote is that we really don`t know yet wha penalties will the 20mm gunpod version of the F4 have. We assume it will be very sluggish and that is all. Now how the actual game is going to do this, that is the real question. From my pov the gunpods are a great trait, looking at the 109G2 - a little more sluggish but still very usable and certainly not a flying rock. Will the F4 20mm variant be the same? How will the 20mm gunpods reflect upon the FM and DM in the game?

OK, this is a legitimate concern. We will see how it works out. If the advantage is too big then mission builders have to ban it...

[Mac_Messer]

I think the FMs will be more accurate than in IL2.. and in IL2 a 109 with gun pods against an average pilot in a fighter is a sitting duck. I think as I said above it will be a non issue.

 

Ok, so we organize like this : better 109 pilots get the gunpods version, escorted by average pilots flying standard 109s. But I don`t have the gunpods cuż I didn`t preorder.

 

At least lemme buy this thing.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Mac_Messer

[leitmotiv]

Until February or March 2014 when standard pre-order may end, we would probably/hopefully have each month one new "gift" to help new guys still not ordering, to pre-order.

Its good to show devs at start if this type of exclusive weapon mod "gifts" are welcome or not welcome in this type of game

Poll option that mprhead mentioned in his post is good idea

[ST_ami7b5]

Ok, so we organize like this : better 109 pilots get the gunpods version, escorted by average pilots flying standard 109s. But I don`t have the gunpods cuż I didn`t preorder.

 

At least lemme buy this thing.

 

It's ofc your business, but why not to pre-order BoS?

I went for both: BoS + DCS44...

[Mac_Messer]

Well I had to choose cuz my dentist took away the rest of the money. Settled for the $30 pledge as I could not place anything more.

[ST_ami7b5]

See.

[Ala13_Kokakolo]

This is a question of princliples. Today is the gunpods, tomorrow it can be the explosive ammo... what I mean is there are plenty things the developers can choose to give the pre-order customers that does not affect the gameplay. Why go for one wich does?

 

The fact this move have already started this cascade of posts proves there is concern in the customers about what it implies. Some people say we can take the g2, or the f4 with the 15 mm, yes indeed, but what if we choose not to? What if we choose to create a mission in 1941 before the g2? If there is a particular weapon modelated, why close some of the players its usage? I have already risen my concern about "unblockable content", I feel the same about this.

 

And I will probably buy the preorder, so this rant is not because of me not getting the aditional content. I bought CLOD when it was at beta stage, and I also bought the HUEY just one week before developers decided to slash its price. No complaints. But this is different.

 

We care about those things. We care about the detail. That's why we have chosen a combat flight sim and not a combat flight game.