Feathered_IV Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Ok well now I'm completely against the idea of having mods in the game if what they'll be used for is to hack the flight models of all the aircraft. That will lead to complete anarchy where every player with a bone to pick about the FM will just go off and create their own game. That's a total disaster. It's okay. Flight models are locked tight and cannot be modded. Even if they could, the Mods on/off feature would keep you protected. You can't go wrong. 1
TG-55Panthercules Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Ok well now I'm completely against the idea of having mods in the game if what they'll be used for is to hack the flight models of all the aircraft. That will lead to complete anarchy where every player with a bone to pick about the FM will just go off and create their own game. That's a total disaster. Even if we were talking about creating new FMs for planes (which we're really not, as a general matter), why would that be a "total disaster" and why would it matter to you at all? I don't want to do this, but so what if I wanted to make my Bf-109 fly like an X-wing in my own game? How are you affected by that in the least? I won't be able to use my borked-up FM plane in any MP game you might want to play, because you and 99.xx% of all other BoS MP players will choose to be playing on Mods Off servers where my mods won't work (to join those servers, I would have to turn my mods off, and thus be flying the same stock version of the game as you and everybody else on that server). So if I happen to disagree with the devs' interpretation of some open-to-question historical issue (e.g., rate of fire, dispersion, ratio of tracers to non-tracer ammo, flak coverage or accuracy, or any of a myriad of other such factors), and want to use some mods that tweak those factors in my own SP game play or even in MP missions among some of my friends to make that gameplay more enjoyable for me and my friends, why do you seem to be so hell-bent to deny us the ability to do that with a mods on mode like we have in RoF?? Why should I have to try to convince the devs to change their position/interpretation on an issue that is open to doubt (and thus impose my particular choice on every other player if I happen to be persuasive and actually convince the devs to make the change), instead of just being able to tweak/adjust those elements of the game, by using mods on in my own copy of the game, to suit my interpretation of historical accuracy or immersion without having any effect on anybody else or forcing them to agree with me? I understand completely the notion that in MP there needs to be one consistent experience for all players on an MP server, but the existence of the "mods off" mode accomplishes that just fine in RoF and I see no reason to believe it would not do so in BoS. What I don't understand at all is the notion that seems to underlie the devs' decision and so many comments like those of SharpeXB that for some reason every SP player has to be forced to have exactly the same experience playing the game. Some like SharpeXB view the ability of SP players to customize their experience as "complete anarchy", but I view it as freedom and a highly desirable way to help insure that players will enjoy the game more and get more invested in the game's success over the long run (leading to increased sales by the devs of future DLC for as long as they elect to continue supporting the game). I've still heard absolutely nothing that sounds remotely logical as to why the devs or anyone else would object to the inclusion of a mods on mode like we already have in RoF. 10
II./JG77_Manu* Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) I've still heard absolutely nothing that sounds remotely logical as to why the devs or anyone else would object to the inclusion of a mods on mode like we already have in RoF. +1 In addition in terms of multiplayer each and every server host could choose, which mods are allowed or have to be used, and which are not. It's this way in Cliffs of Dover (with the Team Fusion patch for example), it's this way in 1946 (with the HSFX mod for example), and also in DCS (with the rendering, or sound mods). So in every other flight sim out there. But maybe Sharpe just missed them all, and only wanna play games where he is forced to "stay in line" and does exactly what the developers want him to do with his games. Each to his own. Edited February 22, 2015 by Celestiale
KodiakJac Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Yep, as 1CGS has said in the past, about 90 to 95% of BoS (and RoF) customers are single players. Set aside the fact that you can manage mods "on or off" in the RoF multi-player game, allowing mods enhances the game play of 90 to 95% of the BoS customers in single play. There is no need for uniformity in single play, other than an irrational desire to control the private experience of others. There are so many mods in RoF I'll bet there are no two players using mods in the exact same combination in single play, which is the way of the free world. No one knows what's fun for me except me. Edited February 22, 2015 by Bucksnort 2
IRRE_Belmont Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 why do you care what the players make with their own game? Are you so megalomaniac that you wanna control how each and every person enjoys this game? Well, i am out of words.. He's right you know, modified FM's online=cheat
Feathered_IV Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 It has already been made abundantly clear that flight models cannot be altered even in mods-on mode. I swear to God, do not make me break out the caps lock!
II./JG77_Manu* Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 He's right you know, modified FM's online=cheat great, so everybody flying in the Cliffs of Dover Atag Server, or Storm of War server (pretty much everybody who flies Cliffs online) is a cheater
BlackDevil Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Also, RoF/BoS does not require a joystick, either. Nor does either have a high learning curve. Not sure what you are on about there... I disagree. I could fly CloD without rudder f.e., but I couldn't fly RoF/BoS without good input devices (stick and rudder) . And so the learning curve was the steepest for me, but it just feels right. Edited February 22, 2015 by BlackDevil
Brano Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Same people,same agenda,same level of intolerance for different opinion. Devs support for talented comunity members - yes Uncontrolled hack'n'mod chaos of old sturm - no
6./ZG26_5tuka Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) This is becoming ridiculous guys, stop making up arguments for leaving mods on mode out. Do you actually knwo how RoF works? Do you know what actually CAN and CAN'T be modded in RoF? If you don't have any clue, pls do some ressearch and you'll find out there's no reaosn for hysteria about such things such as hacked FMs and stuff. It's a question of choice, not safety or cheat-protection - whatever you want to call it. Same people,same agenda,same level of intolerance for different opinion. Uncontrolled hack'n'mod chaos of old sturm - no Thx, you gave us a perfect example for intolerance. Edited February 22, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka 1
1PL-Husar-1Esk Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) I'm not really against having a Mods mode. Just pointing out in RoF that nobody uses Mods-On in multiplayer. Hello my name is nobody. From 2 years several times a week i'm using mods on multiplayer server mode to host and play with my friends cooperative missions. Mission are generated mostly from PatWilsonCampaginGenarator (PWCG) which dependent on some mods to. And when i start listen server i frequently see another multiplayer deathmatch mods on server. Edited February 22, 2015 by tomcatqw 2
Brano Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Thx, you gave us a perfect example for intolerance. I just expressed my opinion how I see it.I am not bashing anyone for having different opinion.
IRRE_Belmont Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 great, so everybody flying in the Cliffs of Dover Atag Server, or Storm of War server (pretty much everybody who flies Cliffs online) is a cheater on ATAG, everyone is using the SAME modded FM, same with all TF servers
unreasonable Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I've still heard absolutely nothing that sounds remotely logical as to why the devs or anyone else would object to the inclusion of a mods on mode like we already have in RoF. As I see it this desire for total control is all a sad consequence of the "unlock" business model. We have already seen that 1CGS want to control our SP experience in case some people somehow short-circuit the unlock progression. After much kicking and screaming (including by the MP guys), and lobbying by Jason, we now have a red button: but still no-one can use custom skins in SP Campaign. If there was a mods-on mode perhaps people might use it and play SP Campaign in a way that made it easier to unlock stuff. This, I would speculate, is the reason for the decision.
1PL-Husar-1Esk Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Loft apparently changed his mind at some point. Nothing I can do unfortunately. My partners know my position on this topic. Jason Sorry to hear that Janson and I’m glad to hear what are you thinking about mods on mode. If BOS case is closed, maybe you can do something to save ROF mods. Personally i think that majority of ROF players would choose to play in mods on multiplayer servers. WHY? - because most of mods adds to realism or historical accuracy of ROF simulator. It would happen if all (mods on and mod off) servers would be seen from in game browser and then when joining you be asked to agree to use mods. Then creators of events would be calm that average player won't miss it. Those servers should be seen from web browser, in game browser like mods off ones and have information which mod (have to be downloaded because of big size etc.), Remember some files can be transferred automatically, some can works server side and apply to all. BTW there are mods witch works with mods off mode to. Big modeler question: Why I would take time and effort to create new content, only to get positive feedback on forums. When creating new things I would like to share them with all users and this means single player and multilayer community also know that my mods are in use. It stronger appeal to multiplayer mods because majority of moders are multiplayer guys and servers are mostly? - Mods off ;/ Because of this i have to somehow communicate to all players to check my mods on server or ask someone to host it. Players won’t restart the game because they don’t see how many players are in mods on server. Suppose they do they do this on different time of day - hence majority will miss out each other, get bored and quit. Why ? because players have tendency to joining servers with have most players. So it would never happened if accessibility of mods on servers would change. It can be done Janson
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) As I see it this desire for total control is all a sad consequence of the "unlock" business model. We have already seen that 1CGS want to control our SP experience in case some people somehow short-circuit the unlock progression. After much kicking and screaming (including by the MP guys), and lobbying by Jason, we now have a red button: but still no-one can use custom skins in SP Campaign. If there was a mods-on mode perhaps people might use it and play SP Campaign in a way that made it easier to unlock stuff. This, I would speculate, is the reason for the decision. I am affraid you are right. Damned unlocks. Edited February 22, 2015 by ST_ami7b5
Urra Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I am affraid you are right. Damned unlocks. Most likely this is the reason... 1
voncrapenhauser Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Mods off and on. Dose this mean all the work peoples have done in making their own skins will never bee seen by others? That would be a great shame as this for me is a major part of ROF mods on If so I can't see the point of giving us the tools to make them???
Yakdriver Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Mods off and on. Dose this mean all the work peoples have done in making their own skins will never bee seen by others? That would be a great shame as this for me is a major part of ROF mods on If so I can't see the point of giving us the tools to make them??? you DO know that skins have nothing to do with mods? i mean... you know how the skins work, right?
DD_Arthur Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) This is becoming ridiculous guys, stop making up arguments for leaving mods on mode out. Do you actually knwo how RoF works? Do you know what actually CAN and CAN'T be modded in RoF? If you don't have any clue, pls do some ressearch and you'll find out there's no reaosn for hysteria about such things such as hacked FMs and stuff. It's a question of choice, not safety or cheat-protection - whatever you want to call it. . +1. This thread has become absurd. The mods on system employed in RoF offers the single player an excellent opportunity to make, use and share individual modifications to their own game. The multiplayer experience is irrelevant to this thread as are references to other games. Seems to me a number of people posting in this thread should take the advice above and consider whether they really know what they're talking about before posting again. Edited February 22, 2015 by DD_Arthur
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Mods off and on. Dose this mean all the work peoples have done in making their own skins will never bee seen by others? in MP, if allowed by the server, they will be seen by others if they have the skins in their plane directory. on SP, they will be seen by the player, except within the SP campaign.
Rama Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 No it isn't. So a mod isn't created by a user? by who then? User created content was put official into the game by Maddox for years in an official manner, that is not the same as Modding. I know, I was part of the peoples that created content officially put in game by OM. You can find my (real) name in the game's credits. And I can assure you that there's no difference in creating these contents than when it can be used in game by a "mod's on" mode. The same tools (photoshop, 3D Max, others...) are used, it takes the same amount of hard wordk, etc.... The only difference is that lots of users then don't know it was made by third-parties. Modding isn't just "uncontrolled free modding", your own definition of it is way too restrictive, and not representative of the modder's activities.
Livai Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I'm not saying RoF itself is dead just that it's MP game attendance is sparse. Aw everyone knows War Thunder isn't a "sim" right? There's probably 800,000 people playing it online today anyways. And DCS is a different type of product than BoS/RoF. It's servers aren't split into mods on and off in any case. It's sparsely attended too so it couldn't afford being split up. War Thunder is more than a "sim". War Thunder has something what BoS never get or reach this level. First it is the Content planes, ships, tanks, infantry....... then the Mod Support with Dev Tools..... huge battles with 14000 units and more...... similar physic and effects....free to play......play tanks... play ships..... fly planes ... fly jets.... 800000 and more that play this game.........and a lot more things that do fun.... Competition is good for business. Sure that DCS World is different type than BoS/RoF or War Thunder. War Thunder is the best package what you need to have fun. In RoF it's not just that many people fly Mods Off online. It's nearly everyone. Ok there are 2 people apparently using mods online today. Based on that, if there was a Mods On mode online for BoS it's likely nobody would be using it. Based on that, what? Again, I said that online you never known what mods the others use on a Mods On Server. If you add to your Plane 88mm guns with zero weight and the others just use only Texture Mods. Who is the winner in this fight. You with your 88mm guns. And thats the point why many not choose online to play on a Mods On Server. If all player need the same mod to play on this Mods On Server thats a whole different story. And dont say you dont would use Mods to play online. There will be a lot that like to use Mods On mode online and offline. If someone reintroduce effects that were reduced during the Early Access or add better Texture or other better ideas to improve the gameplay. Sorry if I am wrong but who said that we need Mods On Server for BoS? Nobody. Mods are mainly for offline gameplay or if someone setup his own Server to play with others with mods enabled. BTW you can tweak and influence the FM from the planes.
dburne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 As I see it this desire for total control is all a sad consequence of the "unlock" business model. We have already seen that 1CGS want to control our SP experience in case some people somehow short-circuit the unlock progression. After much kicking and screaming (including by the MP guys), and lobbying by Jason, we now have a red button: but still no-one can use custom skins in SP Campaign. If there was a mods-on mode perhaps people might use it and play SP Campaign in a way that made it easier to unlock stuff. This, I would speculate, is the reason for the decision. +1 to the above. I have not played BOS in a while now, and seems like each time I start to get a little excited and ready to start going again, the devs leak a little news out that deflates my excitement once again. So now, no mods on mode. Something that was talked about having back in the early diaries. Something ROF has and is obviously very successful, I am sure in part to having this option available. I always fly ROF in mods on mode. Of course, ROF has much more than BOS currently as well, which just totally baffles me. Well at least the FME is now coming out sooner than they stated just a couple weeks ago, maybe that will do it for me once again. I so long for a decent SP campaign to fly in BOS. 1
Yakdriver Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 then no.afaik, there is a mission creating tool... but nobody has confirmed that this tool can create a campaign as such.
wellenbrecher Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 on ATAG, everyone is using the SAME modded FM, same with all TF servers Congratulations. That's exactly his point...
dburne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 then no. afaik, there is a mission creating tool... but nobody has confirmed that this tool can create a campaign as such. Well at this point I would be happy with some really good missions, my hope for campaign comes from they seemingly refer to this as the " FME", rather than just "ME" as they do for ROF. Course that probably means absolutely nothing, but the ROF ME can string missions together in a campaign, so trying to remain hopeful that with the " Full Mission Editor" for BOS one can do that as well. In any event, we will see soon enough.
IRRE_Belmont Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Congratulations. That's exactly his point... No, you and him are both wrong on that one. The FM needs to remain the SAME for all, otherwise, some will just use a cheated FM, wich will allow them to basicly surpass everyone online. That is my point
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 +1 In addition in terms of multiplayer each and every server host could choose, which mods are allowed or have to be used, and which are not. It's this way in Cliffs of Dover (with the Team Fusion patch for example), it's this way in 1946 (with the HSFX mod for example), and also in DCS (with the rendering, or sound mods). So in every other flight sim out there. But maybe Sharpe just missed them all, and only wanna play games where he is forced to "stay in line" and does exactly what the developers want him to do with his games. Each to his own. That's exactly the situation I hope never to see because it would mean a chaotic nightmare for the majority of player who don't want confusion when they try to go online. Every server would need you to DL this mod or that mod some of which might not be compatible with each other. That's what I mean by anarchy and disaster. Most players aren't computer programmers who want to spend all their time messing with the game. I can easily see why the Devs would want to have control over this. Having Multiplayer as a game mode means one version of the game. That's it. One version!
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Sharpe you MUST be joking. Unbelievable...
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Mods off and on. Dose this mean all the work peoples have done in making their own skins will never bee seen by others? That would be a great shame as this for me is a major part of ROF mods on If so I can't see the point of giving us the tools to make them??? Rise of Flight has a different system for the skins, they are submitted to the dev and included officially, hence are not mods. Unofficial skins are mods. I don't know how any of those there are but there are literally hundreds of official skins Sharpe you MUST be joking. Unbelievable... You mean my post above? Yes for the average player having multiple incompatible versions of the game online is a confusing nightmare
ST_ami7b5 Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 OMG, no use to debate with you any further, you use the language which I do not understand at all...
Splat Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 That's exactly the situation I hope never to see because it would mean a chaotic nightmare for the majority of player who don't want confusion when they try to go online. Every server would need you to DL this mod or that mod some of which might not be compatible with each other. That's what I mean by anarchy and disaster. Most players aren't computer programmers who want to spend all their time messing with the game. I can easily see why the Devs would want to have control over this. Having Multiplayer as a game mode means one version of the game. That's it. One version! And yet according to your own estimation, this is not an issue since most RoF players interested in multi-player gravitate towards Mods Off servers anyway. Enable modifications for single player, disable modifications for multi-player. Simple.
DD_Arthur Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) You mean my post above? I mean just about all your posts in this thread - which constitute about ten per cent of the content here - are largely irrelevant to what is being discussed. You don't use the Mods On mode in RoF? That's fine but please, it is evident you don't really understand quite what you are talking about. Multiplayer has nothing really to do with mods. As you yourself have pointed out, there are no active Mods On servers in RoF. This is not an issue. Neither are changes to flight models. Just not gonna' happen, o.k? You like what the Devs are doing with this game? Fine. I do too largely. Now do you have anything relevant to add? If not then please just do us all a favour ............................................................... Edited February 22, 2015 by DD_Arthur 4
dburne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Rise of Flight has a different system for the skins, they are submitted to the dev and included officially, hence are not mods. Unofficial skins are mods. I don't know how any of those there are but there are literally hundreds of official skins You mean my post above? Yes for the average player having multiple incompatible versions of the game online is a confusing nightmare You do realize ROF also has NON historical skins uploaded as well? Quite a few of them actually. Do you really have as much experience in ROF as you claim? Has having mods on or mods off in ROF created this anarchy you seem to think having it in BOS would? If anything, I would say it has helped contribute to it's continuing success. Much like Pat Wilson's PWCG, along with the GUI mod that allows it to be accessed from the game menu. Hence, MODS ON... Why do you think the developers stated the " beta career" was not popular? Because many elected to use the much better PWCG. Mods On. Can you not realize, that many of the folks that bought into BOS did so because of their design and success with ROF, and were maybe so looking forward to BOS having many of the same features as ROF has? Mods On is an option. It is a choice, not forced upon anyone that does not wish to use any mods. You want to play the game only the way the developer released it? Fine, you have that choice. Play the SP mode as you wish, no mods. Play MP mode as you wish, no mods ( likely how most servers would be set). Why argue so strongly against those that would like to see this same choice available in BOS along with the upcoming BOM? Even in MP, perhaps say New Wings, or Eagles Nest, decides they want to run a mods on server so they can fly with certain mods. Again, more choice available. Does not mean you have to join them on their server flying with those same mods enabled. But realistically, the vast majority of servers will be mods off anyway. There is a reason the developers are getting so much resistance, ( like this thread), to their announcement there are now no plans to have a Mods On mode in BOS. And who knows, maybe just maybe someone may take notice of that, someone that can help influence change. Much like the unlocks situation. Edited February 22, 2015 by dburne 1
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 And yet according to your own estimation, this is not an issue since most RoF players interested in multi-player gravitate towards Mods Off servers anyway. Enable modifications for single player, disable modifications for multi-player. Simple. That's true. But I find it hard to imagine that mods wouldn't find their way online You do realize ROF also has NON historical skins uploaded as well? Quite a few of them actually. Yes, there's a whole set of fantasy skin packs, but those aren't mods since they're official. and I have a bunch of non historical fantasy skins myself
Brano Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So a mod isn't created by a user? by who then? By "chosen ones" of course.
SharpeXB Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Much like Pat Wilson's PWCG, along with the GUI mod that allows it to be accessed from the game menu. Hence, MODS ON... Yes, I have that mod also and it's excellent. But something like that could also be officially incorporated and not need to be a mod. It's possible for BoS to have 3rd party campaigns and GUI improvements without mods So a mod isn't created by a user? by who then? I know, I was part of the peoples that created content officially put in game by OM. You can find my (real) name in the game's greetings. And I can assure you that there's no difference in creating these contents than when it can be used in game by a "mod's on" mode. The same tools (photoshop, 3D Max, others...) are used, it takes the same amount of hard wordk, etc.... The only difference is that lots of users then don't know it was made by third-parties. Modding isn't just "uncontrolled free modding", your own definition of it is way too restrictive, and not representative of the modder's activities. Having 3rd party content officially included is a better solution because it gives everyone easy access to it and doesn't create multiple versions of the game
dburne Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Yes, I have that mod also and it's excellent. But something like that could also be officially incorporated and not need to be a mod. It's possible for BoS to have 3rd party campaigns and GUI improvements without mods Having 3rd party content officially included is a better solution because it gives everyone easy access to it and doesn't create multiple versions of the game Well I can't find a throwing in the towel emoticon, but ok I give. I just don't think you quite understand any of this. And I don't think any more trying to explain will get anywhere. But then I did not understand your position on the unlocks either, so I don't feel so bad... at least that got changed, and hopefully with enough folks pushing back on this decision, it will get changed as well. Btw, much of that third party content that got officially approved and implemented in ROF came from guess where? Edited February 22, 2015 by dburne
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