Developer Diary, Part 87 - Discussion

[LizLemon]

Blur wouldn't be complained about if we had custom graphic options.

[SharpeXB]

Blur wouldn't be complained about if we had custom graphic options.

Blur can be switched off when you uncheck camera/cinematic

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Blur wouldn't be complained about if we had custom graphic options.

lol foot in mouth statement.

[Finkeren]

I can complain about Blur all I want to!

 

Their music sucked!!!!

[steppenwolf]

The 'blur' in Project Cars is what I would call 'depth of field'. It blurs the peripheral vision to give the illusion of depth and focus of the player's vision. BoS tries to model 'motion blur'. The two features are distinct from each other. If something is modeled well there's no need to disable it.  

[DD_Arthur]

The 'blur' in Project Cars is what I would call 'depth of field'. It blurs the peripheral vision to give the illusion of depth and focus of the player's vision. BoS tries to model 'motion blur'. The two features are distinct from each other. If something is modeled well there's no need to disable it.  

 

Not sure if that's correct.  The motion blur in BoS is a cinematic effect.  Great for movie making.  That's why there is an option to disable it.  Do you have BoS yet Steppenwolf?

[steppenwolf]

Good point, more options for the player. I wish they would've included camera shake or some of the other various externals from modded 1946 for cinematic effect, a guncam option for sure. No, I don't own it DD_Arthur; still on the fence about the whole thing.  

[MLmarluk]

I've got no problem with community made content, or a third product. If the blocks are there the community will indeed build with them. But can you make the cockpits BE like this please:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aW6K1KPcE4

 

Also, a particle effects viewer similar to the skins viewer would be helpful. Having to load the game after every change makes particle effects design tedious. Also, access to the FX files too! Thank you!

 

This is nice example, but I would like to comment blurring.

This game has simple car instruments. There is only speed and gear. I'm not sure how this would work for flight sim since we must be able to see instruments clearly. So, we should implement the way of sharpening on instruments and on far objects while looking outside. Most natural implementation would be to track eye pupil and sharp on first object in the line of sight. Is it achievable with Oculus?

The alternative approach could be to sharpen on distance defined by the object in the center of view. That could  work with TrackIR but I'm not sure how annoying it could be.

[steppenwolf]

This is nice example, but I would like to comment blurring.

This game has simple car instruments. There is only speed and gear. I'm not sure how this would work for flight sim since we must be able to see instruments clearly. So, we should implement the way of sharpening on instruments and on far objects while looking outside...The alternative approach could be to sharpen on distance defined by the object in the center of view. That could  work with TrackIR but I'm not sure how annoying it could be.

GTA V on PS4 does something similar. At first the depth of field option annoyed me, but then I realized it forced me to play as the game character and look with the game character's eyes. Now I wouldn't play without it.

[SR-F_Winger]

This is nice example, but I would like to comment blurring.

This game has simple car instruments. There is only speed and gear. I'm not sure how this would work for flight sim since we must be able to see instruments clearly. So, we should implement the way of sharpening on instruments and on far objects while looking outside. Most natural implementation would be to track eye pupil and sharp on first object in the line of sight. Is it achievable with Oculus?

The alternative approach could be to sharpen on distance defined by the object in the center of view. That could  work with TrackIR but I'm not sure how annoying it could be.

Middle of screen steers the focuspoint. That simple.

Eyetracking would be the solution were looking at thats to come in VR devices of generation 2 - someday after the release of CV1.

Edited February 11, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[SharpeXB]

Good point, more options for the player. I wish they would've included camera shake or some of the other various externals from modded 1946 for cinematic effect, a guncam option for sure. No, I don't own it DD_Arthur; still on the fence about the whole thing.

 

There is a camera shake effect in BoS for the external view, controlled by the same setting as the blur.

[steppenwolf]

There is a camera shake effect in BoS for the external view, controlled by the same setting as the blur.

Yes, RoF has it. Sorry, I meant something more like this.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuqC43aY2Yw#t=17

[Jupp]

~S~ Everyone,

 

 

Jason stated that community contributions have improved just about every serious flight simulation ever. I whole heartedly agree with that.

 

I think we could all agree in the general idea that simulators are experience emphatic, rather than the win / lose / "beat" orientation of games.

 

 

With ingenuity, Dogfight Servers, Point Scoring, Ranking Lists, .etc, came to be, however, the simulation of flight is still the heart of this hobby.

 

I am personally biased towards the education of aviation, but certainly respect and admire the contributions that have open the field of options.

 

 

Given the that the BoS Full Mission Builder will be released this year, what sort of dream team ideas are now in the community? I am wondering.

 

 

Games like "Fox and Hound", where one player is the Fox, chased by the Hounds, until one shoots down the Fox, and they themselves become the Fox, is a fun example.

 

Things like that can go along way towards enjoying this simulator in a smallish group of friends, whilst practicing all the bells and whistles that this product does have to offer.

 

 

Imagination being the core of creation, what inspires you to build?

 

 

Blue Skies & Salute!

[ST_ami7b5]

OK, OK, but why do you shout?

[Zak]

Something that you may find interesting poped up on the Ru forum

Albert, could you just add [advanced] Video settings in the next update, and we'll see how it works out for everyone. You can always switch it off again if you need to.

There's a chance for that, although we'll start such experiments only after completing the development in general. Which I estimate as at leasts 1-2 major updates for BOS. After that we can get back to discussing this topic.

[Leaf]

Zak you tease...

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Zak you tease...

 

 

LMAO   

 

But seriously, great news on reconsidering whether or not you guys would consider it. 

[duko]

Hoping for custom settings in campaign also.

[oneeyeddog]

Something that you may find interesting poped up on the Ru forum

There's a chance for that, although we'll start such experiments only after completing the development in general. Which I estimate as at leasts 1-2 major updates for BOS. After that we can get back to discussing this topic.

Thanks. Im sure a lot of folks will look forward to this.

[Bearcat]

Hoping for custom settings in campaign also.

 

That would be good...

[Zak]

Zak you tease...

Okay, that was really good stuff, thou I'm removing it to keep ppl from sudden heart attacks.

[Mikey]

Okay, that was really good stuff, thou I'm removing it to keep ppl from sudden heart attacks.

LOL

[SharpeXB]

Hoping for custom settings in campaign also.

Pose this question in a different way. Which setting do you want made selectable in "Normal" or "Expert" which is currently not? For example Padlock was just made available in Normal. That type of request is probably easier to accommodate than changing the whole system of levels.

[duko]

Pose this question in a different way. Which setting do you want made selectable in "Normal" or "Expert" which is currently not? For example Padlock was just made available in Normal. That type of request is probably easier to accommodate than changing the whole system of levels.

A custom settings button just like in quick mission. No reason to invent wheel again with all kinds of different settings, like custom settings for expert and custom settings for normal.

[SharpeXB]

A custom settings button just like in quick mission. No reason to invent wheel again with all kinds of different settings, like custom settings for expert and custom settings for normal.

If there are custom settings for Expert then it's not Expert.

The reason there are only the two presets available in the campaign is that the player works to win awards, BoS and RoF are the same in this regard. Having any further game aids than is in "Normal" would make the game too easy.

A good idea for the Devs to consider though is removing some settings from the Difficulty options altogether. For example Techno Chat is a game aid but it's not included in the Difficulty presets.

An example to consider might be Auto Rudder. Currently a player without a rudder axis has to play on Custom (I'm basing this assumption on ROF since BOS doesn't list the settings)

So maybe that setting is taken outside the difficulty presets.

It's important for multiplayer to limit the preset choices to only two otherwise the players get too divided up on servers. There aren't enough players online for that to work.

[Jaws2002]

GTA V on PS4 does something similar. At first the depth of field option annoyed me, but then I realized it forced me to play as the game character and look with the game character's eyes. Now I wouldn't play without it.

 

Depth of the field is the most gimmicky gimmick in a game. It's doing what your eyes already do. When you play a game, just like when you fly a real plane or drive a real car, the brain concentrates on the things you are looking at. The brain already does the blurring, so why on earth would you make the game double the effect? It's an effect on top of an effect, and all it does is eat performance and make the game look like crap.

[AbortedMan]

Depth of the field is the most gimmicky gimmick in a game. It's doing what your eyes already do. When you play a game, just like when you fly a real plane or drive a real car, the brain concentrates on the things you are looking at. The brain already does the blurring, so why on earth would you make the game double the effect? It's an effect on top of an effect, and all it does is eat performance and make the game look like crap.

The game isn't simulating peripheral vision effects, so it's not "doubling" the effect...unless your screen is 90' wide and you're sitting right in front of it. It simulates movie/theatrical effects and lens dynamics, which is more plausible of a context than trying to make it seem like you're actually there, you know, because you're not...and you're viewing images from a screen as you usually do when watching a movie.

 

DoF is, in a way, hiding the fact that you're not actually in the game-space by blending the whole thing with a more plausible scenario that you're watching a movie and movie type things are happening on screen. That's how I see it, anyway, and I enjoy it when it's done correctly/tastefully. Star Citizen has great DoF effects that allow you to enjoy the effect and see your instruments clearly, and Project Cars' DoF is beautiful as well.

[Bussard_x]

Hi guys,

 

Been busy with other items today, but I'm glad you have a chance to use the unlocks now. I fought long and hard for this opportunity for you, so please don't ruin this requested change by attacking each other or us. This was the best compromise we could arrange all things considered with competing philosophies, a changing market and customer desires. If you absolutely hate the unlocks there is now an option to bypass them. That has always been my goal. I'm very pleased this could be worked out within the team. The Campaign will continue to be tweaked and improved, but the basic format will remain the same. Since hardcore guys generally prefer a different Campaign design, that is not part of the unlock system, I expect the skin unlock issue and the Campaign itself to be less of a concern to those that bypass the unlocks since the modes of custom gameplay you like allow custom skins etc. That means there will be a renewed interest in a different Campaign system and MP servers that utilize our powerful Mission Editor to create the scenarios in SP and MP the hardcore crowd wants. Now that we are preparing for our next product and the ME and Dserver are coming, albeit later than we wanted, I can come back to focusing on finding partners to build a 3rd Party Campaign app that can deliver what the hardcore guys want. I'm in talks with various individuals who can possibly help in this endeavor. I hope to have something working by the end of the year. I am a firm believer in some solutions coming from the community, this is where I came from. The developer will not have all the answers or the means to build something that suits everyone from beginner to expert to casual to hardcore. Which is what we have to try and do to succeed which is impossible. Community contributions were a big part of the original IL-2 and all other serious flight-sims including ROF. In my opinion it should continue with this product and with my help and resources some good results should be possible as we are seeing with the Operations Server run by Caryatid. So please don't beat each other up over the unlock issue anymore and everyone take a breath and go fly with the unlocks activated. I hope they give you enjoyment :-) If anyone with programming skills wants to contact me feel free and I can explain more of what I am looking to do this year.

 

Jason

 

SP campaign hardcore   

[Jaws2002]

The game isn't simulating peripheral vision effects, so it's not "doubling" the effect...unless your screen is 90' wide and you're sitting right in front of it. It simulates movie/theatrical effects and lens dynamics, which is more plausible of a context than trying to make it seem like you're actually there, you know, because you're not...and you're viewing images from a screen as you usually do when watching a movie.

 

DoF is, in a way, hiding the fact that you're not actually in the game-space by blending the whole thing with a more plausible scenario that you're watching a movie and movie type things are happening on screen. That's how I see it, anyway, and I enjoy it when it's done correctly/tastefully. Star Citizen has great DoF effects that allow you to enjoy the effect and see your instruments clearly, and Project Cars' DoF is beautiful as well.

 

 

It's a good tool for the movies, where they try to show you a story, in a certain way. You don't tale part in the story, you just witness it. In a game, you take part actively, you make decisions based on what you see on screen. You decide where you look and, just like in a real car, you don't have to move your head to have a look in the mirror, or check your gauges. That's why it's wrong. Depth of the field in games are artificial, and try to show you a limited version of what your eyes may do, but have nothing to do with what your eyes and brain are actually doing in game.  

In the end, in games, except for some cinematic scenes, this is just a gimmick.

[LukeFF]

 

 

The reason there are only the two presets available in the campaign is that the player works to win awards, BoS and RoF are the same in this regard.

 

Actually, in ROF your difficulty settings have no bearing on your ability to earn awards in career mode. It's only effect is in multiplayer. 

[SharpeXB]

Actually, in ROF your difficulty settings have no bearing on your ability to earn awards in career mode. It's only effect is in multiplayer.

 

I always thought that was the case. And I shouldn't quote the manual because I know you wrote it ;-)

 

p 22

"Note: the score you receive for completing a mission depends on the complexity of the difficulty settings you have chosen. Choosing a simpler lower difficulty level leads to a slower increase in rank and will deprive you of many awards in the Campaign and the Career modes of game play."

 

This manual also has the 4 old difficulty levels. Has RoF changed since then?

 

If the score only counts in multiplayer, there is no leaderboard anymore so why have a score?

Edited February 12, 2015 by SharpeXB

[unreasonable]

Just answer this in case LukeFF has gone to bed....

 

There is a SP leaderboard in the BCareer section of RoF. It is rather odd, because at some point the scoring system was changed (by a factor of 10) but it allows you to see the status of your entire squadron score vs other squadrons' scores, by squadron, or your individual named pilot's score vs all other named pilots. You can play BCareer without ever looking at these scores: as of now they have no effect on the game itself.

 

Rank and medal awards now have their own criteria specific to timeframe, country etc which LukeFF has worked on to improve historical accuracy, so that part of the manual is obsolete.

[SharpeXB]

Yes, I like how Luke reworked the awards. When I restarted my careers it was like HQ had finally approved my medals.

I always thought the difficulty level should affect that somehow but I guess it ended up too gamey where the top awards took hundreds of victories to get. Historical is better.

What about the stock campaigns, Du Doch Nicht and Hat in the Ring? I only ever finished DDN and that was under the old system. There are medals and achievements in that.

[AbortedMan]

It's a good tool for the movies, where they try to show you a story, in a certain way. You don't tale part in the story, you just witness it. In a game, you take part actively, you make decisions based on what you see on screen. You decide where you look and, just like in a real car, you don't have to move your head to have a look in the mirror, or check your gauges. That's why it's wrong. Depth of the field in games are artificial, and try to show you a limited version of what your eyes may do, but have nothing to do with what your eyes and brain are actually doing in game.  

In the end, in games, except for some cinematic scenes, this is just a gimmick.

You're misunderstanding what the goal of DoF is...it's cinematic, not simulating eyes. Just like the 3rd person view camera shaking in BoS...it's simulating a trail aircraft taking footage of your aircraft--same with motion blur simulating quick camera motions.

 

I enjoy my games looking cinematic because my brain cannot deny the fact that I'm still looking at a monitor with my living room around me. With our current and practical technology it's not going to be so real that I'm completely fooled, so it simulates the next best thing...a theatrical movie. Yes, I'm technically taking part in the "story", but there are a myriad of things I'm watching unfold without my control. While you're entitled to your own opinion, to cast it down and say that "it's just a gimmick" and "looks like crap" is just ignorant. If you don't like it, turn it off in games that have it, but know that there is a majority of people that enjoy it...else developers wouldn't be putting it in their games.

 

I'm waiting for a dog (a canine) to jump on the thread and start arguing that "having color in games is just a gimmick, looks like crap, and all it does is eat performance."

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

You're misunderstanding what the goal of DoF is...it's cinematic, not simulating eyes. Just like the 3rd person view camera shaking in BoS...it's simulating a trail aircraft taking footage of your aircraft--same with motion blur simulating quick camera motions.

 

I enjoy my games looking cinematic because my brain cannot deny the fact that I'm still looking at a monitor with my living room around me. With our current and practical technology it's not going to be so real that I'm completely fooled, so it simulates the next best thing...a theatrical movie. Yes, I'm technically taking part in the "story", but there are a myriad of things I'm watching unfold without my control. While you're entitled to your own opinion, to cast it down and say that "it's just a gimmick" and "looks like crap" is just ignorant. If you don't like it, turn it off in games that have it, but know that there is a majority of people that enjoy it...else developers wouldn't be putting it in their games.

 

I'm waiting for a dog (a canine) to jump on the thread and start arguing that "having color in games is just a gimmick, looks like crap, and all it does is eat performance."

Woof woof woof woo woo woof...Woof woof woo woo woo woof woof woo woo.

Edited February 12, 2015 by 71st_Mastiff

[SOLIDKREATE]

This would be great news, but unlocks only for premium members??? You are keeping the skins locked??? What is with you devs??? I am a premium owner, but if I was a non premium owner I would be pissed. If you carry forward with this plan you just devide the Community again and piss off a bunch of people. Just unlock for all game owners, unlock the skins and see your PR take a nice swing in a positive direction. This isn' t that complicated, just do the right thing and be over this nightmare product release. Do not force part of your customer base to buy more product to receive equal treatment to the premium owners. It is pretty easy to see, if you just open your eyes.

 

S!Blade

 

Other game companies do this for founders and premium owners. Look at the Day Zero edition of Call of Duty:EXO. I am a premium owner and a founder. I have no problem with them giving more since I paid more and paid early.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Something that you may find interesting poped up on the Ru forum

There's a chance for that, although we'll start such experiments only after completing the development in general. Which I estimate as at leasts 1-2 major updates for BOS. After that we can get back to discussing this topic.

 

I think that's a VERY good idea. Thanks for letting us know about the comment.

Edited February 12, 2015 by ShamrockOneFive

[Jupp]

~S~

 

While I was just posting in the pilot's art area, a dog unlocked the door, comes into the room, bit me on my torque countering right pedal foot, causing me to have a heart attack!!!

 

It looked really, really, good though. That is, as much as I saw, through the blurring of my eyes, when he did the dirty deed, so, I won't be "down-leveling" him as I will gently put it.

 

Have I missed anything important in here whilst I was in the garage looking for hi-speed tape to bandage the wound?

 

 

"Blue Skies"!

[TG-55Panthercules]

It's a good tool for the movies, where they try to show you a story, in a certain way. You don't tale part in the story, you just witness it. In a game, you take part actively, you make decisions based on what you see on screen. You decide where you look and, just like in a real car, you don't have to move your head to have a look in the mirror, or check your gauges. That's why it's wrong. Depth of the field in games are artificial, and try to show you a limited version of what your eyes may do, but have nothing to do with what your eyes and brain are actually doing in game.  

In the end, in games, except for some cinematic scenes, this is just a gimmick.

 

Agreed - they had a DoF feature in RoF for a while, but it was generally not well implemented or received and eventually they removed it.  Personally, I never liked it - it was apparently trying to emulate some sort of supposed inability to focus on anything in one's peripheral vision but wound up making everything except a small area straight ahead from where you were looking get all fuzzy - you could no longer just glance around the cockpit and read all the dials - you had to physically move your head and stare directly at each instrument in order to read it.  Just felt really artificial and different from how people see IRL.

 

It was an interesting idea, and perhaps if you could have adjusted the size of the clear area and the strength of the effect it might have been worth using, but for me it was just another real good example of why the devs should make graphics settings optional/selectable so that players can tailor the game to their own preferences instead of being forced to accept someone else's opinion about what looks or works best for them.

[LukeFF]

I always thought that was the case. And I shouldn't quote the manual because I know you wrote it ;-)

 

p 22

"Note: the score you receive for completing a mission depends on the complexity of the difficulty settings you have chosen. Choosing a simpler lower difficulty level leads to a slower increase in rank and will deprive you of many awards in the Campaign and the Career modes of game play."

 

This manual also has the 4 old difficulty levels. Has RoF changed since then?

 

If the score only counts in multiplayer, there is no leaderboard anymore so why have a score?

 

Yeah, some things have changed and will be updated in the next iteration of the manual. As for multiplayer, beats me.

 

 

What about the stock campaigns, Du Doch Nicht and Hat in the Ring? I only ever finished DDN and that was under the old system. There are medals and achievements in that.

 

I don't think anything's been done to those in a long time.