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unreasonable

Trees - burn them!

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The map has many trees, which may correspond to how the area would have looked if there were no huge armies there. As it is, there hundreds of thousands of men freezing in their bunkers, dugouts or commandeered houses. Surely by November most of the tree cover would have been cut down for firewood?

 

How about a map revision replacing some % of the free standing trees with stumps?

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I guess the game got seriously much bigger problems than trees.

I am glad we got trees with a collison model at all.

 

+1

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^^How about a map revision replacing some % of the free standing trees with stumps?^^

 

Looks like they beat you to it, someone has chopped down half the forest :)

 

post-6177-0-23235500-1415802734_thumb.jpg

 

Cheers Dapilot

Edited by Dakpilot

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^^How about a map revision replacing some % of the free standing trees with stumps?^^

 

Looks like they beat you to it, someone has chopped down half the forest :)

 

 

 

Cheers Dapilot

 

Sure !

 

Infantry and other ground forces plebs will certainly use woods a lot and during the the proper soviet artillery barrages some assortment would be splintered trunks and half split trees, etc. Would give a sense of actions. 

 

But certainly not the wasteland we see from WW1 no man's land where those areas were saturated 24/7 by shelling.

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These pictures prove nothing. Both dated 2nd October with no snow on the ground. BoS (the game) starts 4 or 5 weeks later with snow, ie freezing temperatures. How did hundreds of thousands of men keep themselves alive in sub zero temperatures apparently without felling a single tree for fuel, let alone the need for wood for revetments in bunkers and gun positions?

^^How about a map revision replacing some % of the free standing trees with stumps?^^

 

Looks like they beat you to it, someone has chopped down half the forest :)

 

attachicon.giftrees.jpg

 

Cheers Dapilot

 

OK, not noticed this myself - is this an artifact of tree drawing distance or the actual close up effect?

I guess the game got seriously much bigger problems than trees.

I am glad we got trees with a collison model at all.

 

I agree with this up to a point, but one of the problems the game has is that it does not look much like a battlefield, especially one where two sides had been banging heads for weeks.

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They prove nothing as much as your impressions prove everything ?! right on.

 

Especially because those woods in the recon photos there are very close to the city where the most intense battles took place and where most artillery shelling from across the Volga landed. October right... When did the Fuhrer announced Stalingrad conquered and the army raised some flag on a schoolyard?! Right...

 

Dude no army chews off entire forests on its wake. And even west front in ww1 took 3 years to devastate entire patches of woods ( not forests ) unless you purposely cut them down.

 

What we miss is rolling hills. Only with terrain LOD changes can you see them proper. ;) 

Edited by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

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Those are cut down/destroyed trees next to central S/grad, not a lot effect

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot

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Those are cut down/destroyed trees next to central S/grad, not a lot effect

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

OK thanks for information, I had not been there recently. My point stands though - 80% of the troops were rear echelon of some kind or other, I find it hard to believe that there were many trees standing near major HQ areas (like Pitomnik), but at least this has been considered, so +1 to the dev team.

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They prove nothing as much as your impressions prove everything ?! right on.

 

Especially because those woods in the recon photos there are very close to the city where the most intense battles took place and where most artillery shelling from across the Volga landed. October right... When did the Fuhrer announced Stalingrad conquered and the army raised some flag on a schoolyard?! Right...

 

Dude no army chews off entire forests on its wake. And even west front in ww1 took 3 years to devastate entire patches of woods ( not forests ) unless you purposely cut them down.

 

What we miss is rolling hills. Only with terrain LOD changes can you see them proper. ;)

 

Sorry "mate" we will have to disagree about this.  Woodland in WW1 western front would have been devastated by a single offensive artillery barrage.  The French heavy artillery in particular was noted for the way it stripped target areas right down to the bedrock in a single preparatory bombardment.  The Germans had been pounding the area around Stalingrad for weeks with bombers and artillery, and while the buildings are all ruined most of the forest is mostly untouched. (Barring area found by Dakpilot, perhaps others I have not seen).

 

Aside from war damage how much timber do you think an army group will use in winter, preparing defensive positions and keeping itself warm?  I do not know exactly, but it can hardly be as little as the map would have us believe. Obviously an army on the move before the frost would use less, but we are talking about at least a month of virtually static front in sub zero temperatures.

 

And don't call me "dude".

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Gumrak photo under snow actually looks quite devoid of vegetation

 

http://www.stalingrad-info.com/Stalingrad281042.jpg

 

My apologies for any language slip.

 

No offense taken really - I do not have an agenda here, I am genuinely interested in what the battle field would have looked like.  None of the pictures I have of the battle show any trees - a little low scrub - it does all look a little "Swiss resort like" to use Heinkill's choice of language, not that this is a particular failing of BoS compared to other sims.

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Actually, and because of this thread been going through some interesting photos, there is a difference in west and east banks of the Volga, where in the West you still have snow layered the East side looks quite clean already, but photo is from April http://www.stalingrad-info.com/bridge.jpg

 

On 1st Feb, over Mamayev Kurgan http://www.fireonthevolga.com/Feb-1-1943%20MK01%20.JPG ( with Pe-2 marked ).

Edited by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

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On that Mamayev Kurgan pic, it is striking how badly shell or bomb cratered the area on the upper right is - some of that may be cumulative Soviet damage, but I expect a large portion originated in the German offensive.

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Freshly cut wood does not burn well.Thats why people do not cut it during winter,but prepare it way before to get it dry.Most of units used whatever they found in debries of houses (pieces of furniture,fences,roofs...) They are easy to obtain and in plenty,just need to pick them up and bring to fire.Not every german soldier was professional woodcutter with axe.And to chop down the tree does not make you a winner.You have to saw it to smaller pieces and then chop to logs.It is very hard job and I cant imagine half frozen germans with axes in their frozen hands cutting thru woods like termites.They were sitting in very same ruins of the houses their glorious luftwaffe bombed month ago and waited for their doom.Sticking your head out of your hideout with idea to go chop some wood would most probably end with bullet in your head from russian sniper.

Edited by Brano
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Freshly cut wood does not burn well.Thats why people do not cut it during winter,but prepare it way before to get it dry.Most of units used whatever they found in debries of houses (pieces of furniture,fences,roofs...) They are easy to obtain and in plenty,just need to pick them up and bring to fire.Not every german soldier was professional woodcutter with axe.And to chop down the tree does not make you a winner.You have to saw it to smaller pieces and then chop to logs.It is very hard job and I cant imagine half frozen germans with axes in their frozen hands cutting thru woods like termites.They were sitting in very same ruins of the houses their glorious luftwaffe bombed month ago and waited for their doom.Sticking your head out of your hideout with idea to go chop some wood would most probably end with bullet in your head from russian sniper.

Brano, the vast majority of soldiers on both sides were never even within rifle range of the front line, except for right at the end of the pocket's life.

 

So how much wood did a soldier need? The British Army Field Regulations for 1811 specified 3 pounds per day. That is 1.4 kilograms.

Lets assume there were 100,000 men in the German army close to Stalingrad in the month between Hethwill_Khan's October photos and the start of the Prelude chapter. (About 250,000 were eventually caught in the pocket). If they consumed wood at the above ration scale, they would have consumed 4,090,000 kilos per month.

 

How many trees is this? Well I do not know for sure, so I used this neat tree weight calculator and came up with an estimate of 180 kilos per tree:

 

Tree weight calculator:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl

 

This would mean about 22,000 trees for this level of wood consumption. And this is ignoring the requirement for corduroy roads, bunker supports, anti-tank obstacles or bunker and trench revetments. Did they get this level of wood ration? Almost certainly not, because there were not enough trees in the area to supply it!

Edited by unreasonable

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You are right.Everything what was needed for simple soldier to survive was in resposibility of rear units/logistics.All of the material has been delivered to frontline area by them - via railway,trucks,horsecarts etc.Firewood included.For example also from my home country - Slovakia,where we had lots of wood processing industries+we were german allies in that time.Some of wood was also obtained from western Ukraine,but that source was wery unreliable because of partisans activities and very poor road and railroad network.

You cant calculate your daily consumption on material available in combat zone.Thats very irresponsible and in fact not possible to execute.

When germans has been cut out from their supply lines,they had to rely on local nonstandard sources.As mentioned by me = debries of whatever made out of wood.As you are from Bangkok you most probably dont know what does it take to process trees to firewood,not talking about harsh winter conditions.

:salute:

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You are right.Everything what was needed for simple soldier to survive was in resposibility of rear units/logistics.All of the material has been delivered to frontline area by them - via railway,trucks,horsecarts etc.Firewood included.For example also from my home country - Slovakia,where we had lots of wood processing industries+we were german allies in that time.Some of wood was also obtained from western Ukraine,but that source was wery unreliable because of partisans activities and very poor road and railroad network.

You cant calculate your daily consumption on material available in combat zone.Thats very irresponsible and in fact not possible to execute.

When germans has been cut out from their supply lines,they had to rely on local nonstandard sources.As mentioned by me = debries of whatever made out of wood.As you are from Bangkok you most probably dont know what does it take to process trees to firewood,not talking about harsh winter conditions.

:salute:

Brano, I am not from Bangkok, I am from England, I just happen to live in Bangkok.

 

Of course freshly cut wood is not ideal for burning: when I was a child my parents house had an open fireplace and we burned locally sourced wood.  I used to split it myself. This was better if it had been stacked, but the odd damp log would burn eventually, it just makes more smoke and spits a bit. Not something that would have bothered an underfed soldier coming into a bunker after a sentry duty in sub-zero temperatures. I have done this myself, too.

 

As I pointed out, the demand for wood for other uses would also have been enormous.

 

As for the logistics train supplying all needs, I think if you study the war in the east you will find that the German logistics were always stretched supplying weapons, spares, ammo and POL from home areas, so much so that they were told to procure food from local areas. German campaigns did indeed handle logistics irresponsibly, which is a big part of why they lost. By the Stalingrad campaign that would obviously have meant mostly food coming from the Ukraine. Wood would have been a very low priority indeed if it was available locally.

 

Anyway, for nearly 10 weeks some 250,000 German troops were in the pocket cut off from rail and road logistic supply:  are you really saying that the Ju52s flying into the pocket were carrying wood?

 

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I did not say that Ju52 brought firewood.There were other more important things to bring in.Troops were left to grab whatever they found in rubbles of houses.There was probably big problem to find anything left made of wood when city was liberated.Even stuff to feed horses was supplied to infantry divisions via logistics.There was no spare time to let them roam freely in countryside to search for food themselves.

I just wanted to point out,that even for such "simple stuff" like firewood you need to have organized system and technology to harvest it and bring it to final destination area.Cutting trees with hand axes and saws by troops themselves is very ineffective,uses lots of human effort and energy.

Sorry for misjudging your country of origin   ;)

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No apology required, Brano, understandable mistake.

 

Meanwhile I am trying to get more actual information on this subject and the logistics of Stalingrad more generally, and it is surprisingly difficult. Lots of people want to write books about tanks and tactics, it seems, very few write about logistics in any but the most general terms.

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Indeed.Logistics is very often omitted from books about war and yet it is by far on of the most important things to have for smooth running operations.Most probably you will not find much about things like "firewood stocks of 6th Army".It was just a common practice when units were out in trenches to gather resources individually by small units.Most probably dirty job for newbies,like "hey,you,get out and fetch us smtg to eat and smtg to keep fire going"

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How many trees is this? Well I do not know for sure, so I used this neat tree weight calculator and came up with an estimate of 180 kilos per tree:

 

I think 180 kilos per tree is on the light side. A large tree runs into several tons, smaller trees are easily a ton.

 

Larger trees are hard to burn though. You'll need a saw to cut it into splittable bits. My experience from outdoor life in Norway is that the smaller trees, particularly birch goes first, larger trees have their branches cut off, but the trunks remain. The same trend can be seen in Africa, so I think we can safely assume it is universal:

 

Sahel7.png

 

The result is that "unorganized" collection of firewood from individual soldiers or small groups would leave trees looking very much like those bombed out forests from the Great War. Larger, more organized wood collection would result in clear cut areas.

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Good point - my tree guess was based on the idea that the local trees are mostly stunted soviet birches and pines, and the weight only really incorporates the main log, so my estimate may be well off.

 

I think the main trunk logs would mostly have been kept for construction purposes: both sides had many battalions of pioneers who did little else. The scavenging soldiers no doubt foraged as best they could for smaller stuff.

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